Current Events > I refuse to acknowledge adoptive "parents" as actual parents

(+) Yeah! (+)

And when I interact with adopted children/parents, I'll make a point of how they aren't actually parents and child

Is how people sound when they refuse to address trans women as women or trans men as men.
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I bet adopted kids have a higher transition rate
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I bet adopted kids have a sturdier transmission
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I mean...adoptive parents aren't the biological parents. This analogy is flawed.
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Not even remotely close, TC.
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try again buddy

Conflict posted...

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I mean...adoptive parents aren't the biological parents

Yeah

That's the entire point of the analogy

He's not too great at the critical thinking, give him a bit.
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Unfortunately, some people say that as well.

What a dumb topic lol
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

I mean...adoptive parents aren't the biological parents.

that's the point

Do I really have to spell out the analogy for people like posts 7 and 11?
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Wetterdew posted...

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I mean...adoptive parents aren't the biological parents.

that's the point

Do I really have to spell out the analogy for people like posts 7 and 11?

Further explained:

Sometimes, especially during medical or legal conversations, an adoptive parent clarifies "We're adoptive parents, not biological."

Because that does make a difference. There is a disparity between a biological parent and an adoptive one, and no amount of love or good parenting is going to erase genetic traits. I'm not by any stretch saying that adoptive parents aren't good parents, but they literally and objectively are not the biological parents.

It's the same with trans people. When it comes down to it, they're definitely one sex or another. Decorate it how you like, but a trans woman can't give birth, and a trans man isn't getting a woman pregnant.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Unfortunately, some people say that as well.

They do. I've been hearing it for years. The worst is when you try to explain how they shouldn't be saying that or that they are incorrect, they get pissed. >_<

Gobstoppers12 posted...

It's the same with trans people. When it comes down to it, they're definitely one sex or another. Decorate it how you like, but a trans woman can't give birth, and a trans man isn't getting a woman pregnant.

And some cis-men can't get cis-women pregnant and some cis-women can't get pregnant by cis-men.

If that's where you argument is going at least.
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Kastrada posted...

If that's where you argument is going at least.

It's one of a lot of examples. There's a total package that is true for every trans person. They have chromosomes that do not match their chosen identity, they have genitalia (or altered genitalia) that do not match their chosen identity, they cannot reproduce using the method common to their chosen identity, their DNA is coded with respect to their birth gender and not their chosen gender, necessitating physical and chemical alterations (hormone treatments, surgeries) to bring them closer to their chosen identity, etc.

The ability to give birth or impregnate a woman doesn't make a person a woman or a man, but only a woman can become pregnant and only a man can impregnate her.
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Poor little adopted kids having to accept and deal with facts of life sounds more motivational and inspiring than chanting "I'm a woman." with a deep and growled voice until it becomes 'true'.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Sometimes, especially during medical or legal conversations, an adoptive parent clarifies "We're adoptive parents, not biological."

And there are contexts where the distinction between transgender and cisgender matters too, like in the context of medical treatment. Transwomen are still women, just like adoptive parents are still parents.
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Ok but the thing is for your argument with adoptive and blood related parents. You said that those issues come up within legal/medical procedures. You never mentioned outside of those things though. Just those two things.

So wouldn't the same thing go for trans-people? The only time their being trans should come up is in those situations (or throwing in personal relationships too), right?

But you said in the other topic:

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I respect them as human beings, but I don't buy into the propaganda that "sex with a trans woman is straight sex," or that I should be punished in legal ways for 'misgendering or deadnaming' somebody who transitions.

It's one of the most bizarre aspects of Current Year; this strange zeitgeist of "you are anything you claim to be," where not even genetics or objectively measurable criterion are enough to dissuade somebody from calling me a bigot for speaking things that are objectively true.

And this is where I get confused. You are upset if people call you a bigot for "speaking things that are objectively true" correct? But if you go around telling adopted families "You aren't blood related" and just keep reminding them, you'd be called out for it, fair? Even though you are correct in their being no blood relation.

Does that make sense? I'm kind of word-vomiting after a long day of work. >_>
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Frolex posted...

And there are contexts where the distinction between transgender and cisgender matters too, like in the context of medical treatment. Transwomen are still women, just like adoptive parents are still parents.

Trans women are women based on their self-identification, but if they've got a penis they're men to me. It's as simple as that.

Adoptive parents are different, in the sense that an adoptive parent is filling the exact role of a biological parent in every way except for providing genetic material.

Trans women are different from real women in more significant ways than adoptive parents are different from biological parents.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

but if they've got a penis they're men to me. It's as simple as that.

What about people born with both? Where do you categorize them?
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Kastrada posted...

And this is where I get confused. You are upset if people call you a bigot for "speaking things that are objectively true" correct? But if you go around telling adopted families "You aren't blood related" and just keep reminding them, you'd be called out for it, fair? Even though you are correct in their being no blood relation.

The difference is, the adoptive parents aren't telling me that they are the biological parents. They know and accept that they're adoptive parents. I don't feel the need to tell adoptive parents that they're adoptive parents because they freely accept that.

It seems like the "trans women are real women" thing is trying to tell me that a woman is whatever a trans woman says a woman is. Any time I make the suggestion that a trans woman isn't a real woman because "real women don't have penises," I get called a bigot.
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Kastrada posted...

What about people born with both? Where do you categorize them?

I've never met anybody like this and it's an extremely rare circumstance, so I don't feel the need to make a rule based on the extremely limited exception. For what it's worth, even if you're born with both, you're probably "more" one than the other, so I'll go with that.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

but if they've got a penis they're men to me.

operative phrase hereGobstoppers12 posted...

Adoptive parents are different, in the sense that an adoptive parent is filling the exact role of a biological parent in every way except for providing genetic material.

Trans women are different from real women in more significant ways than adoptive parents are different from biological parents.

So then the only similarities they share are completely non-biological? Sure sounds like they aren't real parents to me then :^)

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Trans women are different from real women in more significant ways than adoptive parents are different from biological parents.

There's more biological similarities between ciswomen and transwomen than there are between adopted parents and biological parents. Because there's literally zero biological basis for calling someone's adoptive parents parents.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

I've never met anybody like this and it's an extremely rare circumstance, so I don't feel the need to make a rule based on the extremely limited exception. For what it's worth, even if you're born with both, you're probably "more" one than the other, so I'll go with that.

1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. It's rare but it sets a precedence of what is or isn't male/female. Like there are actual human beings that mess up the clean "this is what a man is and this is what a woman is". Just because they are small in numbers doesn't make them the exception. It makes them them.

You have already said biology is cut and dry. There are actual humans that prove you wrong without any kind of genetic modification or social changes. And your response to that is that there isn't enough of them. And then come up with the belief that they are probably "more" one than the other.

You've just cast aside people and physical evidence. I should note that I haven't called you a bigot. I haven't said anything negative about your actions. Just been asking questions to try and understand. But.....shrugging you shoulders and making a decision without ANY knowledge or really acknowledgement kinda shows your true colors.
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Frolex posted...

There's more biological similarities between ciswomen and transwomen than there are between adopted parents and biological parents. Because there's literally zero biological basis for calling someone's adoptive parents parents.

There's also zero biological basis to call a man a woman, but here we are. When it comes to the duties of parents, protecting and nurturing a child, adoptive parents do exactly the same thing as a biological parent.

When it comes to fulfilling the role of being a biological woman, a MtF trans person falls pretty spectacularly short.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

There's also zero biological basis to call a man a woman, but here we are.

I mean, you're the only one here saying we should call men women.

When it comes to the duties of parents, protecting and nurturing a child, adoptive parents do exactly the same thing as a biological parent.

Again, things that have nothing to do with biology. What are you supporting the delusions of fake parents? :^)

Gobstoppers12 posted...

When it comes to fulfilling the role of being a biological woman, a MtF trans person falls pretty spectacularly short.

And adoptive parents fail to fill literally the one role of being a biological parent: being a persons biological parent.
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This is good analogy and a reasonable stance to have. The problem I have is extremists attempting mental gymnastics, trying to claim that trans women are biological females, and trans men as biological males.
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