Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 6

(+) Yeah! (+)

i'm... too tired to start episode 7 tonight

and i suppose, based on what you've said, and what featherine said, and what episode 7's description said,

that i owe the game one last solving session, to see if i can grasp anything before the game tells it to me

but for me to figure out a way for kanon to be somewhere on the island even when it was confirmed 5 people were in one room and "everyone else" was in the other?

and then told he entered battler's guest room and let him out, but then wasn't in the room and also couldn't leave it...?

i mean, what sort of answer could possibly -???

one that exposes "part of beatrice's heart", apparently

i can't even remember episdoe 5's mystery and it was, like, just a few days ago. everyone in the cousin room died, either between 12am to 3am, or apparently after it, with fake bodies or pretending-dead bodies in the morning, and also genji off somewhere

and thos edamn letters that appear out of nowhere when everyone has alibis

the thing is, with kinzo not really being there, it easily fit with bodies and red truths because he was always burnt in the incinerator, and only a few people had the chance to "lie" about being with him

for another one of the 18 to be gone, it's...

a lot more people would have to be part of the collective lie... right?

i'm too tired to think about it, i guess...

but also, there are always red truths claiming that bodies are, like, found, or that bodies really are dead

so i can't imagine how someone could've been dead the entire time but still have their body be found murdered...?

well, i guess the simplest answer would be that someone died right before the events start.

like, with kinzo, he was dead for a long time

but if someone died the day before the events of the game, then their body could still show up during the murders and people wouldn't notice anything super off about it, i guess, lol.

meh. i'm going to sleep.

You're doing good, Dels. Keep it up!

Here's just a thing to think about, if you want to try it. Erika is the 17th person, if she joins them. So if she doesn't join them, there are 16. Name the 16 people.

Also, if at any point you want my spoiler-free notes for the previous games' murders, I still have them.
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Eerieka posted...

Here's just a thing to think about, if you want to try it. Erika is the 17th person, if she joins them. So if she doesn't join them, there are 16. Name the 16 people.

...Is naming the 16 who exist different than naming the 1 who doesn't...?

Also, if at any point you want my spoiler-free notes for the previous games' murders, I still have them.

Seems like a good time for it. Yes, let's do that.

Dels posted...

...Is naming the 16 who exist different than naming the 1 who doesn't...?

Yes, it is. You could try it either way, but I think you'll come to a more satisfactory answer if you name the 16 people.

I'll post my notes in my next post.
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Also, I hope no one bitches at me for posting this. Like... I don't want to spoil you or anything, and these notes are as spoiler-free as I can possibly make them. I don't expect you to remember every little detail regarding scenes you read months ago, but some people might get their panties in a twist about it.

SUMMARY AND NOTES FOR EPISODE 1 MURDERS AND MYSTERIES

The first twilight was Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, and Shannon
Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa were in the dining room at midnight.
Gohda and Shannon were assigned to work in the mansion that night (other servants were asleep or in the guesthouse).
Kanon saw the magic circle on the shed in the morning, then went to get others before opening it
Kanon, Genji, Eva, and Hideyoshi were the first to find the corpses.
Genji left to get Nanjo. The kids followed when they realized some shit was going down.
Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda had their faces completely smashed.
Krauss and Shannon had their faces half-smashed.
Nanjo investigated the bodies of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda. He confirmed they died about six hours ago (midnight).
Hideyoshi and Kanon investigated Shannons corpse which was hidden behind some stuff. Hideyoshi told George that Shannon wore her engagement ring.

Red truth:

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

The second twilight was Eva and Hideyoshi
They went to their room in the mansion. It was a room used for guests before the guesthouse was built. It had a bedroom and bathroom
They locked the door
Genji and Kanon went to talk to Eva and Hideyoshi
They found a letter from Beatrice inserted under the door
Genji almost opened the door with his key, but stopped because Kanon thought it would be rude for a servant to do so
They opened it anyway, only for the chain to be set. It could not have been set from the outside
Genji left to get Natsuhi. Kanon left to get something he could break the chain with
Kumasawa followed Kanon back to the room when he went to cut the chain
When they arrived, the door had blood markings on it
Kanon broke the chain and entered the room first. Kumasawa followed
Eva was on her bed (still wearing shoes). Stake was in her forehead
Hideyoshi was in the shower with the stake in his forehead
Genji arrived with Nanjo and Natsuhi
Nanjo confirmed their deaths, saying it happened within the hour and that the weapon looked unfeasible.
The cousins arrived a bit later
Battler saw the corpses

Red truth:

Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

---

(skipping Kinzo because you should know all about that by now)

Fifth twilight was Kanon
Kanon heard a noise in the boiler room and ran to investigate. Kumasawa followed him, but she couldnt keep up
The boiler room had two entrances one to the mansion, another to the courtyard
Kanon screamed into the darkness, held up a hatchet, then froze and fell to the ground
Kumasawa found him and yelled for everyone else
It was dark and they couldnt see Kanon very well to confirm his body/death, so Battler looked for a flashlight
Battler shined a light in the darkness and saw the other door to the courtyard was open as if someone had left in a hurry
Battler ran outside to chase the culprit
Natsuhi ran after Battler so that he wouldnt be alone
When they returned to the boiler room, they were told that Nanjo and George moved Kanons body to the servant room. Kumasawa and Jessica accompanied them. Nanjo tried to heal him, but couldnt do anything. When they next found Nanjo, he was covered in blood.
The stake had fallen to the ground before they moved Kanon. It laid in a pile of blood

Red truth:

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide
Kanon did not die in an accident!

Sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights were Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo
Natsuhi kicked out Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Maria from Kinzos study because she was suspicious of them planting a letter.
They went into a parlor room
Later, Natsuhis group heard the phone ring
Maria was singing from a distance on the other end of the line
They rushed to the parlor with weapons
The door was locked, but Natsuhi had the key on her
When they entered, Maria was facing the wall, singing. Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were dead with stakes in their bodies.

Red truth:

Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!
And of course, the three were killed by other people!
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers.

Ninth twilight
Natsuhi read the letter in the parlor, then left secretly and locked the cousins in the parlor room
Natsuhi went to the entrance hall in front of Beatrices portrait. She raised her gun.
Battler smashed the door open
The cousins heard a single gunshot
They found Natsuhi dead in the entrance hall
When the police came to investigate, they never found the corpses of the children, but they found body parts and were able to identify Marias jaw/teeth thanks to dental records

Red truth:

Natsuhi was killed by another person!
There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!
The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!

I think I'll just post my Ep 1 notes for now, so if anyone has any complaints, well, it's just Ep 1. \_()_/
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I mean, just looking at the first section, I can see why people might think this "gives things away" if it pares things down to the pure facts, because not only have I forgotten some facts due to memory, the game may sometimes obfuscate facts.

Like, in the first section, you wrote:

Nanjo investigated the bodies of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda. He confirmed they died about six hours ago (midnight).
Hideyoshi and Kanon investigated Shannons corpse which was hidden behind some stuff. Hideyoshi told George that Shannon wore her engagement ring.

So Shannon's body was never confirmed to be dead by Nanjo. And the red text apparently doesn't guarantee they're dead, just that they are who they are.

So, that's one example of how these notes could give me an answer.

Luckily, I already think Shannon is the mastermind, so. If that's a key point, it's not telling me anything I don't already suspect.

Eerieka posted...

Yes, it is. You could try it either way, but I think you'll come to a more satisfactory answer if you name the 16 people..

Well, based on that hint, I'd say:

The reason why naming the 16 is different than naming the 1 who isn't there...

Is because there isn't "one person who isn't there"

It's because two names belong to the same person.

In other words, two people are the same person.

So... Kanon and Shannon are the same person?

The names even go together. Sayo. Yoshiya. Sayoshiya.

Rather than being two "siblings" who fight because they have different worldviews, Kanon and Shannon are just one person - split into two to represent the different halfs of themself - one half who is optimistic and believes in love, the other who is negative and has no hope.

Also some weird shit about gender identity, representing how people have both a masculine and feminine side. Apparently.

...That still doesn't really make sense. >_>

The other option, if you're looking for two people who are the same person...

You'd basically want two people who are always together? Because if they were seperate, it wouldn't really make sense...?

Rosa and Maria are always together. Maybe Maria died before the events of the game and Rosa is still in denial about it, so the family pretends that Maria still exists...?

That doesn't quite work either, but Rosa and Maria are almost always together in scenes. Except when Rosa falls asleep and Maria goes out to the rose garden, but Rosa is "asleep" then, so...

Of course, Rosa dies early in episode 1 and Maria is around for the rest of it, lol.

Either way, that's the only thing I can think of for why you'd suggest naming the 16 people.

Because you'd be naming one by one and then be like "Okay, this person I still haven't named... what if I've already named them?"

I'm in a tough spot because like... I want to say so much... but other people will be like oMg sToP sPoIlIng! Umineko is the kind of story that you just can't say ANYTHING without people hounding you.
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lol, i forgot that red text for ep 1 basically said that "no one killed kanon. but he was murdered."

Eerieka posted...

I'm in a tough spot because like... I want to say so much... but other people will be like oMg sToP sPoIlIng! Umineko is the kind of story that you just can't say ANYTHING without people hounding you.

But I'm the one who has been hounding people to not say anything, and I asked for it :?

Anyway, there's no need for anything beyond the factual notes. The hint about the 16 identities probably not needed since it's given me something I otherwise wouldn't have really thought about. (though I don't know if I'm correct)

Feel free to post the other episodes if you'd like, unless you think some sort of plainly written out fact would give away a major answer.

As it is I don't get much from these episode 1 notes - I'm not looking at them super in depth anyway.

The key to episode 1 always seemed to just be the idea that someone who appeared dead wasn't, and committed the rest of the murders.

When they returned to the boiler room, they were told that Nanjo and George moved Kanons body to the servant room. Kumasawa and Jessica accompanied them. Nanjo tried to heal him, but couldnt do anything. When they next found Nanjo, he was covered in blood.

I guess this part was weird. It's weird that Kanon survived long enough to be moved, but then it was all for nothing anyway. You say Nanjo was covered in blood...? I wonder if it's relevant.

Dels posted...

Eerieka posted...

I'm in a tough spot because like... I want to say so much... but other people will be like oMg sToP sPoIlIng! Umineko is the kind of story that you just can't say ANYTHING without people hounding you.

But I'm the one who has been hounding people to not say anything, and I asked for it :?

The only reason I posted at all was because you asked for it, but the fanbase is absolutely rabid about anyone posting the slightest hint.

Dels posted...

Feel free to post the other episodes if you'd like, unless you think some sort of plainly written out fact would give away a major answer.

I may later, once I gauge how other people react to me posting. If I get a lot of flack, I may stop. >_>

Dels posted...

I guess this part was weird. It's weird that Kanon survived long enough to be moved, but then it was all for nothing anyway. You say Nanjo was covered in blood...? I wonder if it's relevant.

If you want, that scene might be worth rereading/watching. Once Arria gets to the point you're at, I plan to have her rewatch this part lol.
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right, so when the people in the living room died, the living characters were all in the study together. everyone has an alibi. so they must've been killed by a "dead" person. it's really the only thing that makes sense.

not really sure of any easy way to rewatch things. and youtube's not an option since it'd invade me with a sea of "related video" thumbnails

anyway, those red truth's for kanon's death don't rule out that he died from a trap? though traps are usually ruled out in every other scenario.

come to think of it, ep 1 did show some "magic", because he saw golden butterflies here. i forgot that ep 1 wasn't totally devoid of magic.

what's really missing from these notes is people's alibis during the murders. i don't recall anyone having an opportunity to sneak off and go kill eva/hideyoshi. but who knows, i could be wrong.

either way, with shannon's corpse not being confirmed dead and the fact that she narratively fits as a killer (and may even be part of the "16 people" reveal), i'm still just leaning that way

of course, if shannon and kanon were really the same person, it would explain zepar and furfur's words regarding the lovers duel as well

I'm not updating the character rankings. Nothing meaningfully changed for the vast majority of the characters. For the humans, only the pairs of lovers got focus, but it was the same plot I'd already seen half a dozen times. The adults and the other servants had no focus. The magic beings had no focus outside of Erika/Lambda/Bern. It was mostly all about Battler, Beatrice, and Erika.

Erika probably jumps up a decent number of spots, I'm used to her now and find her somewhat amusing. Kanon wasn't insufferable this time but he still won't really go up. Lambda sort of goes up, I find myself sort of liking her and I don't know why.

Featherine/Hachijo will slot in eventually somewhere in the middle. She's fine, and until I see her being annoyingly evil on screen instead of it just being alluded to, I won't rank her low. The love demon sisters are cool as well and they'll rank above the "characters I dislike/don't care about" section, putting them above George and Kanon and Nanjo and etc. I guess that's a huge accomplishment though, for the game to have created a pair of useless side character sisters that I don't dislike.

i mean, kanon's corpse is the one that always has weird stuff happen to it, right?

in ep 1 it gets moved for some reason before he dies

in ep 2 it disappears (and then "comes back as a ghost")

in ep 3... i think kanon and shannon are both among the first twilight

in ep 4... uh... trying to remember. they're both part of the jailed group and both die around the same time. there was one body we couldn't quite see beneath a grate or something but i think they were both confirmed dead.

the thing is, episode 6 kept clarifying that people don't have double names, so unless there's some pedantic trick with the red truth leaving one technicality out, I don't know if this is right

Anyway, I'm really not great at solving puzzles. So it's unlikely I can figure this all out, and I also don't enjoy solving puzzles if they take a long time. So I'm likely going to just move on and let the game take me wherever it wants.

Also, during episode 2, I believe while Kanon was dying with Jessica, Shannon was in Kinzo's study talking to him and learning about his past or whatever. So.

I'm sure episode 7 won't give me any answers right away, so I'll have some more time to think about this as I continue through.

That said, I don't mind being a little hypocritical here and asking: If anyone has anything they want me to try to answer before going ahead, please let me know. Use your own discretion on if asking me about something would indicate the answer or would indicate that it's way more important than I thought.

And so, chapter 7 begins with Virgilia offering up some sort of prayer to Beatrice's legacy, her eternal truth which no one will be able to change, as Battler buries her with it.

Meanwhile, Inquisitors sentence a "maid" (but I don't think it's Shannon's voice) to death.

"If you find the culprit with nothing but the 'why dunnit', that's no mystery. That's propaganda." says the unnamed man running down a street.

I don't necessarily agree. My theories have been entirely based on the why dunnit, because I certainly can't figure out the how.

Anyway, this is strangely relevant, because I was just talking last episode about how I really didn't like how fitting in any random character as a killer/accomplice meant the motive wouldn't make sense.

apaprently, it's impossible for anyone to disturb beatrice from this final, eternal sleep

that's umineko language for "she'll be back in half an hour"

Dels posted...

in ep 4... uh... trying to remember. they're both part of the jailed group and both die around the same time. there was one body we couldn't quite see beneath a grate or something but i think they were both confirmed dead.

Yes, Kanon's body was not seen by Battler in ep4, he was red truthed to be dead.
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I like how the unquisitors say that they have "methods" of making the culprit reveal their motive after they've been judged.

I feel like that's a reference to how culprits in murder mysteries just randomly monologue their motive after being caught for no reason. It's magic!

Sceptilesolar posted...

Dels posted...

in ep 4... uh... trying to remember. they're both part of the jailed group and both die around the same time. there was one body we couldn't quite see beneath a grate or something but i think they were both confirmed dead.

Yes, Kanon's body was not seen by Battler in ep4, he was red truthed to be dead.

indeed. but i suppose he wasn't red truthed as "his dead body is dead under the grate, and he died around the same time as all the other jailed people"

so.

oh my god, are we seriously introducing another random new character in epsiode 7? lol

i forgot to look at the profiles, actually

bernkastel will apparently conduct beato's funeral

poor virgilia/ronove/gaap still have to share a spot. even though virgilia is distinctly important already!

nothing else worth noting

new dude is basically reciting word for word a response to the end of episode 5, as if this maid was natsuhi, the only one without an "alibi"

in episode 5, natsuhi actually had a motive though! sort of.

btw, I could try to name the 16. instead of just make an assumption based on it. but.

i don't think i'd get anywhere new.

let's name them all.

Ushiromiya Krauss

yeah, he's, like... not nonexistant. krauss is definitely real.

Did I already name him? No, he's the first one I named.

Ushiromiya Natsuhi

I don't know her name before marriage, I will admit. Could be some weird trick there.

Did I already name her? No, Natsuhi is not Krauss.

Ushiromiya Jessica

I mean. I think Jessica is real. She does spend a lot of time on screen with George, I admit, but does that mean they are the same person...? Jessica wasn't "supposed to exist", i.e., she was supposed to be a son, not a daughter. They wanted a son to definitively carry on the family legacy. Could the identity we see as Jessica be an illusion created by the fact that Krauss and Natsuhi... uh... no, that doesn't - uh, let's carry this forward later.

Did I already name her? No, Jessica is not Krauss. No, Jessica is not Natsuhi. (I don't think? Is she...?)

Nanjo. I don't remember his first name. I think it starts with a T...? But I think it gets shown in credits.

Could Nanjo be not real? I dunno. That'd be sort of silly.

Did I already name him? No, Nanjo is not Krauss. Nanjo is not Natsuhi. Nanjo is not Jessica.

Ushiromiya Eva

Yeah, she's real. For sure.

Did I already name her? No, Eva is not Krauss. Eva is not Natsuhi. (Unless Natsuhi and Eva represent two halves of the same soul, hence why they clash. And the Ushiromiya family solved their inheritance/lack of children problems by... incest?!) Eva is not Jessica. Eva is not Nanjo.

Ushiromiya Hideyoshi

What was his name before marriage? I don't remember. Possible trick, I suppose.

Did I already name him? No, Hideyoshi is not Krauss. Hideyoshi is not Natsuhi. Hideyoshi is not Jessica. Hideyoshi is not Nanjo. Hideyoshi is probably not Eva. (Though they are strongly linked lol)

Ushiromiya George

...Okay, here's where we're getting at what I said earlier. George is the one who wasn't supposed to exist. Eva was not able to have a child. But then she did. Could it be that George doesn't exist? Could it be that the entity that is "Krauss's child" is actually... George...? And Eva... had a female... chil- no, I'm, uh. Nope. This is what happens when you try to solve Umineko, you speak utter nonsense. But could George be a delusion created by Eva because she strongly wanted a child...? A male one...? Is anythign up with Jessica and George at all...? Unlikely, lol.

Did I already name him? No, George is not Krauss. George is not Natsuhi. George is not Jessica. George is not Nanjo. George is probably not Eva, though, see above, she could have fabricated a son somehow. George is probably not Hideyoshi either.

Ushiromiya Rudolf

Yeah, he must be real.

Did I already name him? No, Rudolf is not Krauss. Rudolf is not Natsuhi. Rudolf is not Jessica. Rudolf is not Nanjo. Rudolf is not Eva. Rudolf is not Hideyoshi. Rudolf is not George.

Ushiromiya Kyrie

Previous name Sumadera. I doubt Kyrie is the person who doesn't exist, though maybe. Again, narratively, there's some room here. Because Kyrie isn't supposed to be here. Asumu is. But fate intervened and gave Kyrie her chance. This is why the "whydunnit" is important, or rather, me analyzing the themes is important. I can't say why Kyrie would be the fake person based on evidence, but narratively, there is some merit to it.

Did I already name her? No, Kyrie is not Krauss. Kyrie is not Natsuhi. Kyrie is not Jessica. Kyrie is not Nanjo. Kyrie is not Eva. Kyrie is not Hideoyshi. Kyrie is not George. Kyrie is probably not Rudolf.

Ushiromiya Battler

Well, if anyone had to not exist, he's one of the most likely, because he's a key character in a different position from all the rest. It'd be pretty weird if he didn't exist, but... could it be that the entire family feels so bad for Rudolf/Kyrie about having a stillborn child that they pretend he exists, even though he doesn't? So it's a collective lie they all share? That's silly.

Could the lie instead be that Battler never came back after leaving home at 13, like we speculated in episode 4? The key point is that Battler is not the son of Asumu. So either he is the son of Kyrie, or he is the abandoned baby from 19 years ago, I guess. Are Battler and Kanon the same age? Can they be the same person? I'm pretty sure the red text last chapter said Kanon is not Battler.

So, what, the whole family decide to collectively pretend Battler exists...? I dunno man, that's a bit weird.

Did I already name him? No, Battler is not Krauss. Battler is not Natsuhi. Battler is not Jessica, I don't think. Battler is not Nanjo. Battler is not Eva. Battler is not Hideyoshi. Battler I do not think is George. Battler is not Rudolf, I assume. Battler is not Kyrie.

Genji Ronoue (not Ronove)

Now we're getting into the territory of people who are easier to imagine as not being real. Family members, eh, doesn't make sense. A servant though... yeah, maybe. But Genji'd be a weird choice. That said, the fact is he doesn't really show up too much in most chapters, and he doesn't do a ton. He spends most of his time with Kinzo, which is now guaranteed to be fake. But this one wouldn't be super narratively satisfying, I don't think. But, sure, it's possible Genji doesn't exist.

Have I already named him? No, Genji is not Krauss. Genji is not Natsuhi. Genji is not Jessica. Genji is not Nanjo, though, I mean, tehy're both old men... Genji is not Eva. Genji is not Hideyoshi. Genji is not George. Genji is not Rudolf. Genji is not Kyrie. Genji is not Battler.

Ushiromiya Rosa

Uh. I don't see any reason to believe Rosa is fake, so, no.

Did I already name her? No, just no. (Sorry, I'm getting tired of this =P)

Ushiromiya Maria

Well, like I said, Maria could be fake. But that's different than being the same person as someone else.

Did I already name her? No.

Let's skip ahead.

Gohda.

I don't remember his first name. Gohda being the fake person is not narratively satisfying. There's also just no reason for it.

Did I already name him? Gohda is not Krauss. Gohda is not Natsuhi. Gohda is not Jessica. Gohda is not Nanjo... Gohda is not Eva. Gohda is not Hideyoshi. Gohda is not George. Gohda is not Rudolf. Gohda is not Kyrie. Gohda is not Battler...??? No, definitely not, lol. Gohda... could be Genji? I mean, they're both servants, both big tall men... Uh... But, like, no. Gohda is not Rosa. Gohda is not Maria.

Kumasawa

I don't remember her first name. Either way, she must exist. Not narratively satisfying if she's the fake, since she's also barely involved in anything. She has a husband, too. (Nanjo has a son as well, I forgot)

Did I already name Kumasawa? No, Kumasawa is not Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica. She is not Nanjo, though they are both old. (lol) She is not Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolf, Kyrie, Battler. Is she Genji? Well, I mean, they're both old! But nah. She is not Rosa or Maria. She probably isn't Gohda.