Current Events > People who hated the GoT finale: how would you have done it? (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

foreshadowing is not the same as character development
you cant ignore years of character growth and make a character do actions they woudnt do
you actually need to have the character grow and change into the sort of person that would do those terrible things and they never did that with dany
they just made her do it
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yusiko posted...

foreshadowing is not the same as character development
you cant ignore years of character growth and make a character do actions they woudnt do
you actually need to have the character grow and change into the sort of person that would do those terrible things and they never did that with dany
they just made her do it

She had already been doing horrible acts, the only difference was you didn't cheer this time
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So basically if she was going to burn Kings Landing then they should have made her descent into madness seasons ago. And maybe include a few scenes in which Drogon is shown melting iron chairs.
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CM_Ponch posted...

yusiko posted...

foreshadowing is not the same as character development
you cant ignore years of character growth and make a character do actions they woudnt do
you actually need to have the character grow and change into the sort of person that would do those terrible things and they never did that with dany
they just made her do it

She had already been doing horrible acts, the only difference was you didn't cheer this time

no the difference was she did horrible acts to people who were her enemies
she always stood up for the weak so her killing innocent women and children is completely out of character for her
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It would have needed to be saved starting with season 7

Season 7 is a full 10 episodes, about the army of the dead

Season 8 is a full 10 episodes post walkers, and Dany planing the attack of Kings Landing. After nobody is grateful for her helping save them from the dead, she starts to slowly lose it. By the time she snaps and turns mad queen, it wouldve been deserved
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DuranOfForcena posted...

every horrible act she's done in past seasons were to people who deserved it or gave her no choice. there was literally no justifiable reason to burn innocents in the streets of King's Landing or destroy the city. she's never done anything like that whatsoever before.

No, it was to people she considered her enemies. The people of King's Landing were her enemies she treated them like she treats her enemies. The show went out of its way to tell you this. You can debate it it all you want but that's the factual reason.
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I liked the final episode, and most of the actual plot moments that have happened this season. It would have been much better overall if they spent more time to cover the events of Ep4 and 5 especially. In retrospect, if they made full-length seasons 7 and 8, the battle for the dawn could have served better at the end of a previous season.

- Dany's descent into madness felt a bit too rapid.
- I would have liked more breathing room for the Varys/Tyrion betrayal bits.
- I think they should have done a better job of killing Rhaegal. Perhaps having him die from Euron's fleet at the start of ep5, to give more reinforcement to Dany feeling pissed off and alone.
- There should have been at least a little bit more debriefing of the NK/white walkers storyline after the battle. Even just a few comments from Bran or Sam may have been enough.
- The issue of Asha and the Iron islands' independence should have been addressed better at the kingsmeet, or maybe not emphasised earlier on.
- The Bronn storyline was lame this season and could probably have been cut.

Most of the endings were good. I especially liked the scene with Brienne writing Jaime's story in the book.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

no, it was to people who really were her enemies.

Yes, please explain the mindset of a slave traded rape victim who inherited an army and developed a Messiah complex. She was always a savage, the only difference is she had never been in a situation where she was "the bad guy". You cheered on a psychopath and then got confused when she did psychopath things
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DuranOfForcena posted...

right. because everyone she went "psychopathic" on before deserved it, and she had a justifiable, logical reason to go psychopathic on them

She wasn't doing it because she was justified, she was doing it because they were her enemies.

DuranOfForcena posted...

and now all of a sudden she IS in a situation where she's the "bad guy", because she went psychopathic on a whole s*** ton of people she had no reason to go psychopathic on

Her reason was the same as before, they were her enemies

DuranOfForcena posted...

do you understand that you just ceded the entire argument to me?

No, it just proves you fell for her Messiah story
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Hairistotle posted...

duran he's not getting it move on

Yes, clearly I'm the one not getting it, let's ignore that the show itself went out of its way to explain it to people like you
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That dude's a lost cause. He seems either to be arguing that she didn't go crazy in KL, it was just more of the same, or that she was always crazy. And he'll just say the show explained it, too bad you just couldn't understand.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

she was justified in considering those people her enemies though. she's not justified at all in thinking the innocents of king's landing are her enemies. what are you not getting about that?

It was never about justification, that's what you don't understand. Dany was always doing horrible things to her enemies, that was all her justification was, that they were her enemies. A murderer killed a bunch of people you considered bad and you cheered her on, then you act surprised when that same murderer kills people you consider innocent.

DuranOfForcena posted...

right, except it's not justified this time, and it doesn't follow any semblance of logic

It was never justified. What she was doing was no different from what Cersei was doing, the only difference is you applauded her for it.

DuranOfForcena posted...

huh? what are you even trying to say here? what "proves" that i "fell" for her "messiah story"?

The fact that you keep justifying her previous actions with "they were the bad guy" instead of realizing that she was always using force to get her way and had a history of killing people who stood against her.
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shnangyboos posted...

That dude's a lost cause. He seems either to be arguing that she didn't go crazy in KL, it was just more of the same, or that she was always crazy. And he'll just say the show explained it, too bad you just couldn't understand.

She always used force, then within a span of weeks she lost two dragons, half her army, her most loyal soldier, her best friend, her lover, and her claim to the throne. Combine this with a history of force and it's the logical conclusion to her story. The story went out of its way to explain this to you and you're crying she would never do this when the story tells you that she would, did, and has no issue with doing it again.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

because they were bad

They didn't due because they were bad, they died because they were her enemies. This is what you don't get. You believed her to be a hero so you justified her actions, but it was never about being a hero, it was about stopping those who opposed her. A hero doesn't threaten to burn down cities. A hero doesn't enjoy watching her brother die. A hero doesn't set fire to people for not bending the knee. Dany was a psychopath who you cheered on.
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CM_Ponch posted...

shnangyboos posted...

That dude's a lost cause. He seems either to be arguing that she didn't go crazy in KL, it was just more of the same, or that she was always crazy. And he'll just say the show explained it, too bad you just couldn't understand.

She always used force, then within a span of weeks she lost two dragons, half her army, her most loyal soldier, her best friend, her lover, and her claim to the throne. Combine this with a history of force and it's the logical conclusion to her story. The story went out of its way to explain this to you and you're crying she would never do this when the story tells you that she would, did, and has no issue with doing it again.

Again, although you're going to say no, you're arguing she didn't go crazy, she just did what she had always done, we just didn't like who she did it to. That truly is the argument you're making.
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I wonder if when she heard the bells she had already known Tyrion had betrayed her & freed Jamie, and if she realized that Tyrions bell plan was not only to save civilians but Cersei as well.

She easily took the city through brute force. She should have done what Yara, Ellaria, & Olenna urged her to do in the first place, take Kings Landing right away.

So when the bells ring and she realizes she won then its like, f*** thats all you had to do. Maybe your friends, advisors, dragons, & allies world still be around & youd already be sitting on the Iron Throne.
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shnangyboos posted...

Again, although you're going to say no, you're arguing she didn't go crazy, she just did what she had always done, we just didn't like who she did it to. That truly is the argument you're making.

You realize both happened? She had her advisors telling her to be more merciful and in the moment she stopped holding back. This isn't a black and white issue, you need to stop thinking in moments and actually look at the character and everything leading to the moment, not just the moment itself.
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Do you think she went crazy or not? If you think she went crazy, then explaining her actions after she went crazy by pointing to things she did before she went crazy is pointless. And if you think she went crazy, you have to acknowledge that her actions at KL are different than what we've seen her do before.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

your problem is the same as Dan and David's fanfiction, in that they started seeing and showing a lot of stuff in the show through a modern ethics lense,

You are literally the one applying modern ethics to Dany while simultaneously saying its okay because she's a warrior

shnangyboos posted...

Do you think she went crazy or not? If you think she went crazy, then explaining her actions after she went crazy by pointing to things she did before she went crazy is pointless. And if you think she went crazy, you have to acknowledge that her actions at KL are different than what we've seen her do before.

Did you not read what I said

CM_Ponch posted...

You realize both happened

You keep looking for moments instead of the whole story
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DuranOfForcena posted...

lol no i'm not

DuranOfForcena posted...

they were her enemies because they were bad

DuranOfForcena posted...

she was absolutely justified in trying to topple the slave trade in essos, and the slaves definitely considered her a hero for it

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yikes what a trainwreck

Man, you keep telling me not to think in moments, yet you keep referencing an 8 minute conversation to explain it all.

Anyway, you've got an uphill battle convincing anyone that Essos Dany would have done the same thing KL Dany did. Everyone's problem is they didn't earn her descent into madness, they just made it happen. If you think they earned it, there's no convincing you otherwise.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

lol wow, that's all ya got?

Your entire argument is calling her a hero and then saying not to put modern ethics into her. Says a lot about your view point.

shnangyboos posted...

Man, you keep telling me not to think in moments, yet you keep referencing an 8 minute conversation to explain it all.

An 8 minute conversation? Let's ignore her previous threats of burning cities, her treatment of her enemies who didn't bend the knee, her use of force for every conflict, her attitude towards anyone who didn't immediately bow to her, the constant and tragic losses she faced. You're right all I focused on was an 8 minute conversation.

shnangyboos posted...

Everyone's problem is they didn't earn her descent into madness, they just made it happen.

Seasons of her being rash, multiple characters fueling her fire and blood, multiple characters telling her to show more mercy, multiple losses of those close to her, her entire journey being undermined by her lover's existence, yeah they just made it happen
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DuranOfForcena posted...

the concept of a hero isn't something that is restricted to modern ethics

Claiming that she was justified because they were "bad" goes against this.

DuranOfForcena posted...

it says a lot about your understanding of ethics throughout history.

It's funny how you claim this while justifying her actions as heroic while simultaneously saying things like
DuranOfForcena posted...

she was a warlord in a medieval-inspired society where war and killing is an every day part of life and of ruling any considerably size populace/land. "the world is built by killers." the things she did are the way of the world

Those slave masters were doing things by way of their world. The people she opposed were doing things by the way of their world. You have all the pieces of the puzzle but refuse to put them together.
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I just wanted Arya to use her assassin face switch skills atleast once this season
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DuranOfForcena posted...

again, being "heroic" isn't something that is restricted to modern ethics

DuranOfForcena posted...

she was a warlord in a medieval-inspired society where war and killing is an every day part of life and of ruling any considerably size populace/land. "the world is built by killers." the things she did are the way of the world

So what is it, is she a hero or a warlord who did things by her way of the world? You can't justify her actions with "heroics" and then claim "she's a warlord doing things the way of her world. That only furthers the idea that she did the logical thing for her character in King's Landing.
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I think the groundwork was definitely there for Dany to want to destroy Cersei and her army without giving a shit about collateral damage, not to systematically kill thousands of innocent people who posed no threat and weren't in her way. It's an absurd leap. We should've already seen at least one (much smaller) instance of this where she goes too far and kills innocent people that have nothing to do with anything. This is the woman who locked up her dragons for killing one child.
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I would have given it the extra two seasons(minimum) it needed to flesh that narrative out
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DuranOfForcena posted...

uhh, yes i can. again, "the world is built by killers".

DuranOfForcena posted...

nothing about what she did at king's landing was logical

You can't seem to agree with yourself
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DuranOfForcena posted...

CM_Ponch posted...

You can't seem to agree with yourself

yes i can

you can't seem to actually comprehend a single word of what i'm saying

"the world is built by killers", "Dany was a hero for killing", "Dany is just a warlord doing what the people of her world do", "Dany was wrong for killing her enemies"
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DuranOfForcena posted...

how many f***ing times are you going to ignore or "explain" away the difference between actions that were justified and actions that were unjustified

You have the puzzle pieces and refuse to put them together. You have this idea that she was a hero yet can't understand why a "warlord doing things the way people in her world do" would burn her enemies. Dany isn't a hero, she may have done things you can consider "heroic", but she was not doing them for heroic reasons. Dany was a selfish and misguided character who had the world praise her for using force, and then you can't understand why she would continue to use force despite your idea of her being a "warlord". The only person going in circles is you because you can't put two and two together.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

i don't have any trouble believing that she would burn her enemies and use force. i have trouble believing that she would up and consider the innocent commoners of king's landing her enemies for no logical reason whatsoever.

Because they were her enemies. This is what you refuse to understand. Dany is not a peace maker, she is a warlord invading and attacking a city. Those were Cersei's followers, those were Cersei's people. You keep trying to apply logic to her actions while doing the unlogical and painting her as a hero. Dany was not burning slave masters and rapists and "evil" armies, she was burning her enemies. You the viewer put your morals onto her and decided she was a "good guy" for her actions completely ignoring that the things she was doing were horrible acts.
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