Current Events > I dont understand Danys motivation in this episode (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

She wanted to kill Cersei. Cersei didnt love the people and the people didnt love her. Dany knew this because Tyrion told her this all the time.

I know shes supposed to be mad but the show didnt really establish this. She seemed more like an angry child than she did a mad queen.

I get what they were going for but man did they fuck it up.

Plus all the other stuff they ruined this episode.

The only consistent thing in the show is that Jon Snow still knows nothing
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She aims to rule by fear, as she can't do it by love in Westeros. If she allowed surrender, would anybody fear her?
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

She aims to rule by fear, as she can't do it by love in Westeros. If she allowed surrender, would anybody fear her?

Seeing as how she has a dragon that single handedly took out the Iron Fleet and the whole Golden Company army, definitely lol
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

If she allowed surrender, would anybody fear her?

Yes.

I4NRulez posted...

The only consistent thing in the show is that Jon Snow still knows nothing

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Smashingpmkns posted...

Gobstoppers12 posted...

She aims to rule by fear, as she can't do it by love in Westeros. If she allowed surrender, would anybody fear her?

Seeing as how she has a dragon that single handedly took out the Iron Fleet and the whole Golden Company army, definitely lol

iClockwork posted...

Yes.

Look at it from her perspective, though. Back in Essos, even the people who feared her would keep rising up because she kept showing them mercy. The whole "Sons of the Harpy" meme started because she didn't slaughter the masters.
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The Jamie stuff bugged me far more then the Dany stuff. His arc throughout the entire show and especially this season was so pointless. All his "growth" throughout the show he basically just threw away. Hell, why the fuck did Bran even let him live? He played no big role in the end. He was worthless. It's all so baffling.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

Gobstoppers12 posted...

She aims to rule by fear, as she can't do it by love in Westeros. If she allowed surrender, would anybody fear her?

Seeing as how she has a dragon that single handedly took out the Iron Fleet and the whole Golden Company army, definitely lol

iClockwork posted...

Yes.

Look at it from her perspective, though. Back in Essos, even the people who feared her would keep rising up because she kept showing them mercy. The whole "Sons of the Harpy" meme started because she didn't slaughter the masters.

Its kinda different when you're the sitting queen and you have a fucking dragon that has been seen to wipe whole armies in seconds though. The only threat to the throne is Jon's blood, there would be no uprising big enough to take her down.

But that's where the easy out "mad" shit comes in. Of course, when Jon Snow was born that coin flip worked in their favor
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She was the Chosen One!
She was going to reclaim Kings Landing not leave it in ashes!!

fear leads to anger
anger leads to hate
hate leads to suffering

...shes gone to the darkside on her dragon. shes Anakin Skywalker of Westeros.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Look at it from her perspective, though. Back in Essos, even the people who feared her would keep rising up because she kept showing them mercy. The whole "Sons of the Harpy" meme started because she didn't slaughter the masters.

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

Maybe she didn't have their love, but almost every single fuckin' kingdom in the Seven Kingdoms had already allied with her. Going by the comments this episode, the only ones still working for Cersei were the Westerlands. Even the people in King's Landing fucking hated Cersei, they were just afraid of her. Attacking the city was solely for the symbolism of the Iron Throne because as long as Cersei sat her ass on it, she could call herself queen.

The only issue she might have is that Jon has a better claim. Even ignoring that she could just, y'know, marry the dude she loves and consolidate their power, he's repeatedly said he doesn't want it. Maybe Sansa doesn't like her, but that's a big tough titty. Jon is da king in da norf, he bent the knee, and he's sticking with that alliance. You know what might make him change his mind? Burning a city of innocent people to death.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Look at it from her perspective, though. Back in Essos, even the people who feared her would keep rising up because she kept showing them mercy. The whole "Sons of the Harpy" meme started because she didn't slaughter the masters.

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

Maybe she didn't have their love, but almost every single fuckin' kingdom in the Seven Kingdoms had already allied with her. Going by the comments this episode, the only ones still working for Cersei were the Westerlands. Even the people in King's Landing fucking hated Cersei, they were just afraid of her. Attacking the city was solely for the symbolism of the Iron Throne because as long as Cersei sat her ass on it, she could call herself queen.

The only issue she might have is that Jon has a better claim. Even ignoring that she could just, y'know, marry the dude she loves and consolidate their power, he's repeatedly said he doesn't want it. Maybe Sansa doesn't like her, but that's a big tough titty. Jon is da king in da norf, he bent the knee, and he's sticking with that alliance. You know what might make him change his mind? Burning a city of innocent people to death.

Yeah but she's mad!
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pegusus123456 posted...

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

That's mostly because of Jon though, who has the respect of many houses in Westeros and has the ability to form alliances. Dany is is very insecure about that.
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Kolibri X posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

That's mostly because of Jon though, who has the respect of many houses in Westeros and has the ability to form alliances. Dany is is very insecure about that.

This doesn't solve that though. Even if that were the case: Jon still exists, he's loved by everyone else, has more claim to the throne.

If she's so insecure about it she should have killed him. That being the catalyst to her madness might have actually made it interesting.
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Kolibri X posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

That's mostly because of Jon though, who has the respect of many houses in Westeros and has the ability to form alliances. Dany is is very insecure about that.

About half of Jon's lines this episode were variations on, "She is my queen."
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pegusus123456 posted...

Kolibri X posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

That's mostly because of Jon though, who has the respect of many houses in Westeros and has the ability to form alliances. Dany is is very insecure about that.

About half of Jon's lines this episode were variations on, "She is my queen."

Yeah but so what. He has a better claim and the secret is out. She is also insane with rage at this point and you're asking for rational actions from an irrational character.
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Kolibri X posted...

Yeah but so what. He has a better claim and the secret is out. She is also insane with rage at this point and you're asking for rational actions from an irrational character.

Which would be fine except the show has not spent NEARLY enough time building her up to that point.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Kolibri X posted...

Yeah but so what. He has a better claim and the secret is out. She is also insane with rage at this point and you're asking for rational actions from an irrational character.

Which would be fine except the show has not spent NEARLY enough time building her up to that point.

I think they've given us enough hints that shes always been crazy when she talks about wanting to burn the city down in the past, but yeah season has been fast paced.
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She was fulfilling Missandei's last wish.
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Also why didn't Yara kill Euron. It was like they didnt want to pay off any of these stories.
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She is angry over the death of her dragon and Missandei as well as the betrayal(both real and perceived) of those around her.

She feels she will never be loved by Westeros and that Jons legal claim to the Thromenis a threat. Jons hesitancy to be intimate with her was probably the final straw.

She decided to rule with overwhelming fear as she cannot secure the love of the people. The death and betrayals of many of those she loved or trusted pushed her over the to the darker aspects of her personality/house.

Fear it is
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pegusus123456 posted...

Guess what though.

Everyone in Westeros was already on her side.

No they weren't. She was the least objectionable option between her and Cersi, but I think most hoped for better, and Jon's heritage would give it to them, no matter his protests.

Factor in she's lost 2 of her "children", her father figure, and the closest thing she's had to a friend in recent weeks, and her advisors have abandoned her, were working to betray her, have proven incompetence (in her mind at least, god forbid Tyrion not be perfectly clever), and broken her trust. For all the playing to those pushing for peaceful solutions, she wanted blood.

My own thought was when the people surrendered, she snapped because she was denied her rage. I could almost see it in her: "I will not let this pass. I will not let Cersi have a show trial where that little troll will convince me to send her into exile, all while people seek to replace me with someone that doesn't want the job. I will let the world know what happens to any who challenge me in any way."
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pikachupwnage posted...

She is angry over the death of her dragon and Missandei as well as the betrayal(both real and perceived) of those around her.

She feels she will never be loved by Westeros and that Jons legal claim to the Thromenis a threat. Jons hesitancy to be intimate with her was probably the final straw.

She decided to rule with overwhelming fear as she cannot secure the love of the people. The death and betrayals of many of those she loved or trusted pushed her over the to the darker aspects of her personality/house.

Fear it is

dany going mad queen is fine, it's just how the switch was flipped is the problem. they could have done better at making her lose her shit in the moment.

emphasize that even though she won, people still opposed. you could even have the citizens that she would be burning oppose her.

have an important person to her die this battle, or one of her dragons. killing rhaegal in this episode would have better served both episodes 4 and 5.

but nah it was battle is won, bells ringing, they surrendered. nope! burn them all for...some reason.
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pegusus123456 posted...

The only issue she might have is that Jon has a better claim. Even ignoring that she could just, y'know, marry the dude she loves and consolidate their power, he's repeatedly said he doesn't want it. Maybe Sansa doesn't like her, but that's a big tough titty. Jon is da king in da norf, he bent the knee, and he's sticking with that alliance. You know what might make him change his mind? Burning a city of innocent people to death.

Jon said he didn't love her (basically, by pulling away) and that she was his queen. So...that was off the table. She wasn't loved and Jon had the better claim. If she wants to rule, she needs fear. That's why she did it.
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The answer to TC's question is the show tried to do in 2 episodes what should have taken at least an entire season to do.

Dany's transition to the mad queen should have been a process, not a switch that suddenly got flipped.

after the bells scene, what she should of done is go straight to the red keep and destroy it

then in the aftermath as shes holding court somewhere, she can start sending people she doesn't trust (like Lannister soldiers) off to their executions like Joffrey used to. this establishes her paranoid tyrant status and would've been a continuation of what happened with varys earlier

that's imo anyway and I think that's better than going GTA with cheats on in kings landing
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I4NRulez posted...

I know shes supposed to be mad but the show didnt really establish this

a pretty good post on the got subreddit explains it:

- 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying "Who can rule without wealth or fear of love." (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)

- 204 Daenerys "When my dragons are grown we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground."

- 206 Daenerys "I will take what is mine with fire and blood."

- 207 - Cersei Lannister "Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."

- 210 Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.

- 303 Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar "he was not the last dragon."

- 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.

- 405 Daenerys speaking with Jorah. "You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didnt listen. It all worked out well."

- 407 Jorah tells Daenerys "The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts." Reminding her "I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai."

- 407 Daenerys "They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one."

- 505 Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.

- 505 Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.

- 508 Daenerys "Im not going to stop the wheel. Im going to break the wheel."

- 604 Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

- 606 Dario to Daenerys "You werent made to sit on a chair in a palace. Youre a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn."

- 606 Daenerys to the Dothraki "Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?"

- 609 Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to "Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt." Tyrion responds "You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for Kings Landing?" Daenerys "This is entirely different!" Tyrion "Youre talking about destroying cities. Its not entirely different."



(cont in next post)
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- 702 Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on Kings Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrions plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys theres no other option)

- 702 - Olenna Tyrell "Commoners and nobles are all children really. They wont obey you unless they fear you." And later. "Youre a dragon. Be a dragon."

- 704 After news of her armys defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrions plans and his loyalty.

- 704 Daenerys "Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. Im going to fly them to the red keep."

- 705 Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.

- 705 Tyrion "Daenerys is not her father." Varys "And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen."

- 705 Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys trust of Tyrion.

- 801 Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys realization that she has no love in Westeros.

- 802 Daenerys is angry that Tyrions advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying "Either you are a traitor or a fool." And "Cersei still sits on the throne. If you cant help me take it back I will find another Hand who can."

- 803 Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.

- 804 Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.

- 804 Tormund "What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!" (Id like to point out when Tormund says "madman" it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says "or a king!" it cuts to Jon)

- 804 Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys "He loved me and I couldnt love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you." (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)

- 804 Daenerys "I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here."

- 804 Varys "These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save" Daenerys "Im here to save the world fromy tyrants and I will serve it, no matter the cost."

- 804 - Daenerys "Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them." (We should note she is directly talking about "The People" here)

- 804 Missandeis final words before her execution. "Dracarys".

- 805 Varys "They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath."

- 805 Daenerys speaking to Jon "Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I dont have love here. I only have fear."

- 805 After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says "Alright then. Let it be fear." (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)



(cont in next post)
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- 805 Tyrion "The people who live there, theyre not your enemies. Theyre innocents." Daenerys "Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. Thats what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant." (Shes all but saying shes not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)

- 805 Daenerys to Tyrion. "Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me."

And thats just what I can remember off the top of my head.

Heres the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down Kings landing.

She wasnt "acting out of character" at any point in 805. She literally did the thing shes threatened to do for multiple seasons.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7l4u/spoilers_all_of_the_foreshadowing_that_lead_up_to/
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you can ring my BEEEEH-EEEEH-EEEELL.. ring my bell!
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^ continued from post #28:

Bells ring in 805, which for some reason makes Dany go apeshit.

This is foreshadowed when in episode 102, Dany was hit on the head by her brother and a Dothraki blood rider chimed in with "man that hit must have really rung her bell," which caused Dany to lose her God damn mind anytime a bell was rung.

Season 2, episode 4:
Daenarys: "When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground."

Her motivations to conquer Westeros were never noble, it's always been entitlement and lust for power. Her claim to the throne only exists because her ancestor did exactly what she did: burn the crap out of Westeros with his dragons.
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Calling it now. Bran warged into the dragon and caused it to go batshit crazy. Dany only wanted to fly over to the tower, but the dragon went berserk.

Bran doing this to frame dany so she can be removed.
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pogo_rabid posted...

Calling it now. Bran warged into the dragon and caused it to go batshit crazy. Dany only wanted to fly over to the tower, but the dragon went berserk.

Bran doing this to frame dany so she can be removed.

That possibility entered my mind. They made it a point not to show her after it all started. It seems too far fetched if all he wanted is her removed. I couldn't come up with a good reason for him to do it, though.
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clearaflagrantj posted...

^ continued from post #28:

Bells ring in 805, which for some reason makes Dany go apeshit.

This is foreshadowed when in episode 102, Dany was hit on the head by her brother and a Dothraki blood rider chimed in with "man that hit must have really rung her bell," which caused Dany to lose her God damn mind anytime a bell was rung.

lol
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shnangyboos posted...

pogo_rabid posted...

Calling it now. Bran warged into the dragon and caused it to go batshit crazy. Dany only wanted to fly over to the tower, but the dragon went berserk.

Bran doing this to frame dany so she can be removed.

That possibility entered my mind. They made it a point not to show her after it all started. It seems too far fetched if all he wanted is her removed. I couldn't come up with a good reason for him to do it, though.

Nothing unites a fragile alliance like a big bad to focus on.
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IMO it wouldn't have looked *so* bad and dumb if they waited until this episode to kill Rheagon.

Have Rheagon get hit, go down. The peasants cheer, she loses her shit and decides to burn them all.

Instead it's like...I've won and she just makes the conscious effort to kill everyone.

It doesn't come off as madness, just being shitty.

Smashingpmkns posted...

Gobstoppers12 posted...

She aims to rule by fear, as she can't do it by love in Westeros. If she allowed surrender, would anybody fear her?

Seeing as how she has a dragon that single handedly took out the Iron Fleet and the whole Golden Company army, definitely lol

Lol exactly.

What the fuck are people talking about defending this garbage? It doesn't even make sense anymore.
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Literally in season 6 the show runners themselves say "Dany is not her father and she's not insane".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k0YsrTBEYM" data-time="
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Dany's been threatening to take the throne with fire and blood and return cities to the dirt since Season 2. Jorah had to council restraint, then Barristan, then Tyrion and Varys, every step of the way. Viewers might have been quick to brush off these scenes as misdirection because it seemed so obvious that Dany was destined to be a hero, if not the hero of the story. But she's always had to have her violent impulses kept in check by her advisors. Now that she has no advisors left (save Tyrion, who she's lost confidence in), there's no one to stop the dragon from waking.

Her motivation is to take back the iron throne. She's always felt entitled to it. The people of Westeros don't love her and she doesn't love them. I'm not sure she's even interested in ruling, despite the aptitude she showed in Meereen. Dany's spent a lot of the show overthrowing tyrants and then moving on to the next conquest.
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Polycosm posted...

Dany's been threatening to take the throne with fire and blood and return cities to the dirt since Season 2. Jorah had to council restraint, then Barristan, then Tyrion and Varys, every step of the way. Viewers might have been quick to brush off these scenes as misdirection because it seemed so obvious that Dany was destined to be a hero, if not the hero of the story. But she's always had to have her violent impulses kept in check by her advisors. Now that she has no advisors left (save Tyrion, who she's lost confidence in), there's no one to stop the dragon from waking.

Her motivation is to take back the iron throne. She's always felt entitled to it. The people of Westeros don't love her and she doesn't love them. I'm not sure she's even interested in ruling, despite the aptitude she showed in Meereen. Dany's spent a lot of the show overthrowing tyrants and then moving on to the next conquest.

And in the most recent episode we learned DANY WAS RIGHT THE WHOLE TIME.

She flew in on Drogon's back, singlehandedly took out the Iron Fleet, the Lannister Army, the Golden Company, and all of the city defenses.

The enemy threw down their weapons and surrendered. Very few civilian casualties, very little collateral damage, and a pretty quick and definitive surrender of the city.

Dany was RIGHT. Her advisers were fucking wrong.

They just showed us that Dany had the ability to take the city with minimal bloodshed and good restraint.

Then they had Dany start committing genocide after the battle was won like the Westeros version of Hitler.
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Youngster_Joey_ posted...

Have Rheagon get hit, go down. The peasants cheer, she loses her shit and decides to burn them all.

This would have been a significant improvement, imo. I like the direction they went with Dany and it was well-established and foreshadowed, but I actually don't think they sold her in-the-moment decision all that well. This suggestion would have made the scene feel more natural, for sure.
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De Evolution posted...

The enemy threw down their weapons and surrendered. Very few civilian casualties, very little collateral damage, and a pretty quick and definitive surrender of the city.

Dany was RIGHT. Her advisers were fucking wrong.

They just showed us that Dany had the ability to take the city with minimal bloodshed and good restraint.

I've gotta say, this is a totally fair point. In retrospect, I think it was a mistake for them to show literally no casualties prior to the bells ringing. The whole point of Cersei cramming people into the city was to make it impossible for Dany to take the city without civilian casualties, but... yeah you're right, they wound up undercutting that. Good point.
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Polycosm posted...

De Evolution posted...

The enemy threw down their weapons and surrendered. Very few civilian casualties, very little collateral damage, and a pretty quick and definitive surrender of the city.

Dany was RIGHT. Her advisers were fucking wrong.

They just showed us that Dany had the ability to take the city with minimal bloodshed and good restraint.

I've gotta say, this is a totally fair point. In retrospect, I think it was a mistake for them to show literally no casualties prior to the bells ringing. The whole point of Cersei cramming people into the city was to make it impossible for Dany to take the city without civilian casualties, but... yeah you're right, they wound up undercutting that. Good point.

I'm trying to explain to people... I can't believe people can't see this stuff.
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This was the best episode in Season 8 and actually made sense. Dany has always been fairly sociopathic, she's a conquerer. What didn't make sense was Arya again, and the episode was far too long. But whatever. I feel like its a lazy attempt to make Jon the king but at least it makes sense. Besides, a lot of people died. At this point the more people that die in this series the better it will be since the writing is so terrible.
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I almost wonder if it was more that as the bell rang people were still running for the red keep like Cersei would protect them. I mean she had stopped her attack and the town had surrendered, but they kept running away screaming towards the red keep before she even started to burn anything again.

Maybe she felt they didnt deserve her saving them anymore and it was better to just clean house. Or it could be that they just did nothing to free themselves at all, and after she had given up so much for them they were not fit to save.
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oh god, my boss thought this episode was the greatest..

now i'm just lying and pretending i thought it was good as well
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pogo_rabid posted...

oh god, my boss thought this episode was the greatest..

now i'm just lying and pretending i thought it was good as well

Why?

Are there really professional environments where you have to agree with your boss about everything? This isn't the first time I've heard of something like this.

Ic3Bullet posted...

pogo_rabid posted...

oh god, my boss thought this episode was the greatest..

now i'm just lying and pretending i thought it was good as well

Why?

Are there really professional environments where you have to agree with your boss about everything? This isn't the first time I've heard of something like this.

Nepotism is a thing.
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