Current Events > Integrative Medicine is the new bullshit woo

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-harm-of-integrative-medicine-a-patients-perspective/

Got called to consult an "integrative physician" and refused.
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JACKBUTTMOMMY posted...

Nice argument you have there.

Take, for example, these quotes from the Center for Comprehensive Wellness at the Columbia University Medical Center, a part of the New York Presbyterian Hospital that utilizes CAM therapies on pediatric patients:

Reiki is an ancient, gentle hands-on healing technique originating in Japan. Reiki promotes relaxation, eases pain, and reduces anxiety and stress. It also assists the body in cleansing toxins and balances the flow of subtle energy.
[source]

Acupuncture and acupressure, both forms of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), stimulate specific points on the body known as acupoints in order to reduce tension, help the body relax deeply, and strengthen resistance to disease. These approaches relax the muscle fibers, resulting in increased blood flow and release of toxins.
[source]

Reading these, it is easy to see how a person could be misled, since this is information coming from a reputable source and sounds very convincing if not read with a skeptical lens. No well-conducted study has shown that either of the above treatments will heal or prevent disease, aid in removing toxins (always unspecified) from the body, or manipulate a non-existent energy field. They may cause an improvement in mood and/or relaxation through (very real) placebo effects and a simple human connection, but both a positive mood and relaxation can be brought about through far less mystical ways. Indeed, acupuncture actually carries an actual risk of infectionwith no actual benefit.


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Sounds like someone's chakras are out of alignment
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'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.
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Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

Also tell that to the "real" doctors that saved my dad's life a few months ago when he had a heart attack. I'm sure healing crystals would have been just as effective though.
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Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

Not saying the science is wrong, but it's scary how many supposed "professionals" pull diagnoses out of their asses or else do nothing but fill out prescriptions
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God, I hate when they do this. It's so obviously sinister, but it works to trick dumb people.
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Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

This is why they have such a high failure rate.

Oh wait, no.
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Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

Right at the top of that Dunning Kruger curve I see
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Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.
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Awesome posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.

Yes, because evidence based doctors just love prescribing benzodiazepines and amphetamines.
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Sometimes I'll just listen to someone go on and on about acupuncture and whatever and I just keep thinking... it doesn't work. How do they not know it doesn't work?
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rikasa posted...

Sometimes I'll just listen to someone go on and on about acupuncture and whatever and I just keep thinking... it doesn't work. How do they not know it doesn't work?

Science doesn't determine if something "doesn't work". It determines if there's any quantifiable evidence that it does work.

If you compare acupuncture to playing a flute over someone and they result in the same pain relief, how would you interpret the results?
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guys, i was totally bullshitting with that post. i'm so sorry.
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Awesome posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.

Aren't you an anti vaxxer? Your opinion doesn't really count in that case
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powerman1426 posted...

Awesome posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.

Aren't you an anti vaxxer? Your opinion doesn't really count in that case

no im not against vaccines, im against the ingredients they use as stabilizers and as preservatives.

vaccines can be made without heavy metals and msg.
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im against the ingredients they use as stabilizers and as preservatives.

vaccines can be made without heavy metals and msg.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/

All of this is true but highly deceptive. Why? The recommended dosage of streptomycin for the treatment of various infections is 20-40 mg/kg per day, for a maximum of 1 g per day! Why is this relevant? Because every vaccine given to a child during his entire life probably doesnt even come anywhere near 1 mg, thats why. Antibiotics like streptomycin and neomycin are used in cell culture medium at low concentrations to suppress the growth of bacteria. The reason that these antibiotics are listed is because theyre used in culturing the cells necessary to grow the viruses used in making vaccines. By the time the vaccine is made, these antibiotics are only present in trace amounts, nowhere near enough to cause renal toxicity or ototoxicity, which only occurs with use at or above the range of the doses listed above. I suspect that Mr. Heckenlively knows this too but only mentions it because he knows it will scare parents. Indeed, he takes this sort of distortion to a truly comical extreme with this example:

Sucrose is used as a stabilizer. Over-consumption of sucrose has been linked with some adverse health effects. The most common is dental caries or tooth decay, in which oral bacteria convert sugars (including sucrose) from food into acids that attack tooth enamel. When a large amount of foods that contain a high percentage of sucrose is consumed, beneficial nutrients can be displaced from the diet, which can contribute to an increased risk for chronic disease. It has been suggested that sucrose-containing drinks may be linked to the development of obesity and insulin resistance.

Does Heckenlively honestly think that the baby is eating the vaccine or that theres kilogram upon kilogram of sucrose in vaccines? Using Mr. Heckenlivelys logic, I could say that because theres the chelation agent EDTA used in some vaccines as a preservative babies could use it as a treatment for heavy metal poisoning. Sadly, Mr. Heckenlively is not alone in using such distortions to attack vaccines.


Anti vaxxers are literally the worst
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Awesome posted...

powerman1426 posted...

Awesome posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.

Aren't you an anti vaxxer? Your opinion doesn't really count in that case

no im not against vaccines, im against the ingredients they use as stabilizers and as preservatives.

vaccines can be made without heavy metals and msg.

I also recall your sketchy "diet advice" topic recently. You're entitled to your own opinions but keep them to yourself before you hurt someone
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powerman1426 posted...

Awesome posted...

powerman1426 posted...

Awesome posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.

Aren't you an anti vaxxer? Your opinion doesn't really count in that case

no im not against vaccines, im against the ingredients they use as stabilizers and as preservatives.

vaccines can be made without heavy metals and msg.

I also recall your sketchy "diet advice" topic recently. You're entitled to your own opinions but keep them to yourself before you hurt someone

XD at the manipulative people on this site that paint other people as villains for telling people to stop eating doritos and drinking soda.

what a joke, but it never gets old at how many people here act the same exact robotic way.
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Awesome posted...

powerman1426 posted...

Awesome posted...

powerman1426 posted...

Awesome posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

False. They have science and decades of actual research to fall back on.

if i listened to my doctors id be on xanax/klonopin, effexor/zoloft, proton pump inhibitors and adderall/concerta and most likely id be dead or 350 pounds right now.

had to learn all the stuff on the internet and now i'm down to 200 with little body fat right now from being near 280 and obese. i only go to the doctors to get blood drawn to check my testosterone and thyroid.

Aren't you an anti vaxxer? Your opinion doesn't really count in that case

no im not against vaccines, im against the ingredients they use as stabilizers and as preservatives.

vaccines can be made without heavy metals and msg.

I also recall your sketchy "diet advice" topic recently. You're entitled to your own opinions but keep them to yourself before you hurt someone

XD at the manipulative people on this site that paint other people as villains for telling people to stop eating doritos and drinking soda.

what a joke, but it never gets old at how many people here act the same exact robotic way.

That wasn't your advice lol. But I'd be ashamed to admit it too, it's ok
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I like how bullshit hucksters act like the solution to literally anything is blatantly obvious advice that somehow doctors don't know or won't talk about.

Yes. Doctors don't know that diet and exercise is good for you.

News for you, pal. Aligning your chakras isn't the same thing as eating your veggies.
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As you can see, its used by the military for pain management, cancer treatment, and behavioral health

The military also used fake bomb detecting equipment for years

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/06/fake-bomb-detectors-iraq

Anecdotes and testimonial evidence are the realm of BS salesman.
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If medicine were 100% science doctors probably wouldn't do much at all. That's not to say woo-woo bullshit should be tolerated, but I think people need to understand that medicine is just as much art as applied science.
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JACKBUTTMOMMY posted...

COVxy posted...

If medicine were 100% science doctors probably wouldn't do much at all. That's not to say woo-woo bullshit should be tolerated, but I think people need to understand that medicine is just as much art as applied science.

Thank you.

He's not agreeing with you.

Just FYI, COVxy, this guy is planning to go to Integrative Medicine School.

If I remember correctly, because "med school would be too expensive and stressful" or something to that effect.
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DarkRoast posted...

Pancake posted...

'real' doctors don't know anything either though. may as well roll some dice and play in the street.

Right at the top of that Dunning Kruger curve I see

More like the Dunning Kruger parabola.
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My beef is that you confused CAM and naturopathy with integrative health.

Integrative Health is just a clever way of justifying non-evidence-based care as a complement to standard healthcare. It's the typical Osteopathic "mind/body/soul" stuff taken to its most egregious under the banner that somehow combining the two actually legitimizes the latter.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/complementary-alternative-medicine/about/pac-20393581


The term alternative has been dropped and replaced with newer terms, such as complementary and integrative medicine, integrative medicine and health, or just integrative medicine.

Integrative medicine can help people with cancer, persistent pain, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia and many other conditions better manage their symptoms and improve their quality of life by reducing fatigue, pain and anxiety. Examples of common practices include:

Acupuncture
Animal-assisted therapy
Aromatherapy
Dietary supplements
Massage therapy
Music therapy
Meditation

Let's be totally clear here - that's a load of placebo effect BS lumped next to standard medicine under the guise that it's OK as long as it doesn't harm the patient.

Safety alone does not justify a new treatment modality. Covering your face with butter is safe, but is nevertheless a waste of money (and butter) and shouldn't be promoted as a legitimate add-on to conventional treatment.
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Lol @ alternative medicine in general.
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Not to mention that the absolute biggest problem with Integrative Medicine is that it is, by virtue of its own rules, not held to the same standards as any other form of medicine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19707062

Alternative therapies are popular, and information about them should be included in the curricula of health profession schools. During 2000 to 2003, the National Institutes of Health National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine awarded five-year education grants to 14 health professions schools in the United States and to the American Medical Students Association Foundation. The purpose of the grants was to integrate evidence-based information about complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) into the curriculum. The authors reviewed the educational material concerning four popular CAM therapies-herbal remedies, chiropractic, acupuncture, and homeopathy-posted on the integrative medicine Web sites of the grant recipients and compared it with the best evidence available. The curricula on the integrative medicine sites were strongly biased in favor of CAM, many of the references were to poor-quality clinical trials, and they were five to six years out of date. These "evidence-based CAM" curricula, which are used all over the country, fail to meet the generally accepted standards of evidence-based medicine. By tolerating this situation, health professions schools are not meeting their educational and ethical obligations to learners, patients, or society. Because integrative medicine programs have failed to uphold educational standards, medical and nursing schools need to assume responsibility for their oversight. The authors suggest (1) appointing faculty committees to review the educational materials and therapies provided by integrative medicine programs, (2) holding integrative medicine programs' education about CAM to the same standard of evidence used for conventional treatments, and (3) providing ongoing oversight of integrative medicine education programs.
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Alternative medicine can fuck a duck
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Integrative Medicine, in short, gets the pass on rigorous academic peer review and oversight that is given to Alternative Medicine, yet somehow is expected to have the same level of respect that standard medicine receives amongst serious practitioners.

In many ways, that's actually worse than alternative medicine. At least alternative medicine does not portend to be a vital part of "allopathic" medicine in the way Integrative Medicine does.

That gives Integrative Medicine an air of academic legitimacy that it hasn't earned.
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By golly you're thick.
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The entire problem is that places like Duke have integrative health programs but apply almost no serious academic review to them.
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Besides, the argument "not all Integrative Medicine practitioners use Reiki and Homeopathy" is an indirect admission that Integrative Health has no centralized practice standards. That alone makes it suspect.
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Teaching hospitals dont apply academic review?
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freedddddd posted...

Teaching hospitals dont apply academic review?

Only to "allopathic" modalities.

Alternative modalities aren't held to the same standards because of course they're not.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/integrative-medicine-finally-admits-its-attracting-bad-apples/

This integration of alternative medicine, that is, unproven, disproven and/or frankly fantastical diagnoses and treatments, into conventional medical practice is otherwise known as integrative medicine. Surprisingly, in a recent article, two practitioners of, and advocates for, integrative medicine agree that quality and ethics are problematic in their chosen specialty. The article is full of the uncritical boosterism that characterizes integrative medicine and only tangentially acknowledges that a lack of evidence of safety and efficacy might be an issue. To their credit, however, it does seem to be slowly dawning on them that, in Mark Crislips immortal words:

"when you integrate cow pie with apple pie, the cow pie is not made better, the apple pie is made worse."

The editor of the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine is John Weeks, who has no background in science or medicine of the type that would be expected of a medical journal editor.

Despite their enthusiasm for unproven/disproven treatments in their own practices, the authors admit to misgivings about integrative medicine:

In response to the growing number of providers seeking a new practice model, individual clinicians, educational organizations, and businesses are increasingly providing trainings and certifications in areas such as functional medicine, antiaging medicine, regenerative medicine, and integrative medicine. These trainings are typically offered as brief in-person courses or online modules. Some are promoted as profitable, turn-key sources of revenue [citing Functional Medicine University as an example of the latter].

While these proliferating continuing education and certification opportunities can provide expanded options for providers and patients, they often lack third-party verification of their standards through organizations that accredit credentialing bodies. They may enroll medical doctors from any medical specialty, and typically lack clinical oversight in the practical application of diagnostic testing and treatments to real patients.

In this context of practice expansion for clinical, business, or mixed reasons, providers from disciplines across the board risk going beyond their primary training in unethical or dangerous ways.

A psychiatrist, who has no training in infectious diseases and endocrinology, completes functional medicine training and Lyme-literacy courses. His practice includes specialized testing, diagnosing patients with adrenal fatigue, parasites, and chronic Lyme and prescribing, among other treatments, antibiotics and extensive supplements.

An integrative gynecologist prescribes bioidentical hormones not only for women, but also children and men, populations not included in his postgraduate residency.A primary care physician does some self-study and takes a weeklong class and rebrands herself as an integrative consultant.

Ring and Newmark fail to note that chronic Lyme, parasites, and adrenal fatigue are popular fake diagnoses. They also fail to explain that bioidentical hormones is a marketing, not a medical, term, and are of both unproven effectiveness and questionable safety.


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You seem to know a lot about it for someone who doesnt practice it and refuses to work with it.
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freedddddd posted...

You seem to know a lot about it for someone who doesnt practice it and refuses to work with it.

You don't have to practice bullshit woo to know that bullshit woo is bullshit woo.

Pseudoscience and all the logical fallacies that prop it up are a tale as old as time (song as old as rhyme). Integrative Medicine is just the latest attempt to graft it onto something that mainstream medicine could not only turn a blind eye to, but pretend is of value.
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DarkRoast posted...

As you can see, its used by the military for pain management, cancer treatment, and behavioral health

The military also used fake bomb detecting equipment for years

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/06/fake-bomb-detectors-iraq

Anecdotes and testimonial evidence are the realm of BS salesman.

Anecdotes and testimonial evidence are what you provided.

Nutrition, yoga, and meditation paired with conventional medicine is not bullshit woo. They arent bullshit woo on their own, either.
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