Board 8 > I don't get Dune (spoilers???)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I feel like some aspect of it went over my head, because there were some neat concepts and everybody loves it, but I just kinda felt like there was never a credible threat to Paul after the whole betrayal thing because he was better than every single character at their own game. The first third had me interested and the rest was just like 2005 Cena Visits A Desert, But With Pompous Language And A Weirdly Omniscient Narrator.

please inform me as to the extent of my crimes and/or idiocy
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Hmmmmm

I definitely felt things fell too easily in Paul's favour in the desert. There were many times where he'd just say some random shit and it would just *happen* to be exactly what the people around him needed to hear to believe he was the chosen one. Sometimes it was genuine stuff like "I didn't want to kill him" and that resonated with the people present, but sometimes it'd just be some random shit like "I wish I had some salt" and they'd be like "oh man salt is poison to us, only the chosen one would willingly want salt!!!" and then theyd tell everyone and it would spread to all the Fremen.

That stuff kinda annoyed me. It was interesting when he could see the future and felt that he was in a crucial moment where saying the right thing would win him everything and saying the wrong thing would cost him everything, but at times it felt like no matter what he did, it was the right thing. At times it felt like Paul was forging his own fate and at other times he was on a track until the end no matter what.

There is that plot point about the inevitable galactic jihad that he cannot prevent, but I don't think that's the same thing as what I'm talking about. I'm not sure where that goes later anyways as I've only read the first book.

But besides that everything was fucking awesome.
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So you guys thought that this apparent fact got in the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlUU2U-Sn_g" data-time="
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A lot of the things falling into place was the Bene Gesserit's doing with sending the teacher there. Jessica did a lot of coaching to him also in what to say based on the teachings.
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True.

(I listened to it in audiobook form and boy was I way off on how to spell that)
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I don't accept the Bene Gesserit's influence as an explanation for everything happening as ordained. I accept it as a useful tool that Jessica definitely exploited. It makes sense when Jessica just "happens" to say exactly the thing they are expecting, because she's intentionally manipulating them and knows all about the previously implanted legends by Bene Gesserit who have visited the Fremen in the past.

But it's very clear that this isn't what's happening with Paul. He isn't saying things because Jessica told him to - he very clearly observes the reaction the common Fremen have to offhand comments he makes. It even kind of annoys him.

You might make the argument that Jessica manipulated Paul into unknowingly saying these things, but I don't agree with that. Paul is very aware of Jessica's manipulative nature and can usually tell when she's trying to subtly influence him.

Plus there's the fact that what happens with the Fremen isn't actually what the Bene Gesserit as an organization intended - Jessica just utilized them with her knowledge because of her love for her son, not for the aims of her organization or for the realization of the Kwisatz Hadarach. The Mother Superior was not pleased when Paul faced the Emperor.
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CoolCly posted...

I don't accept the Bene Gesserit's influence as an explanation for everything happening as ordained. I accept it as a useful tool that Jessica definitely exploited. It makes sense when Jessica just "happens" to say exactly the thing they are expecting, because she's intentionally manipulating them and knows all about the previously implanted legends by Bene Gesserit who have visited the Fremen in the past.

But it's very clear that this isn't what's happening with Paul. He isn't saying things because Jessica told him to - he very clearly observes the reaction the common Fremen have to offhand comments he makes. It even kind of annoys him.

You might make the argument that Jessica manipulated Paul into unknowingly saying these things, but I don't agree with that. Paul is very aware of Jessica's manipulative nature and can usually tell when she's trying to subtly influence him.

Plus there's the fact that what happens with the Fremen isn't actually what the Bene Gesserit as an organization intended - Jessica just utilized them with her knowledge because of her love for her son, not for the aims of her organization or for the realization of the Kwisatz Hadarach. The Mother Superior was not pleased when Paul faced the Emperor.

I wonder why she would be displeased with the literal threat of destruction of their source of power by a child who wasn't ever supposed to exist in accordance with the Bene Gesserit plan and who frankly they felt quite possibly costed them the Kwisatz Haderach.

I mean, I guess she should be freaking thrilled!

That said, we know that Paul could see things also. He was also a culmination of Gesserit breeding. While not the Kwisatz, he was something else. Something unexpected. Quite possibly even more than was planned.
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I'm.... glad you agree that what happened was not the Bene Gesserit's doing by sending a teacher there.
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CoolCly posted...

I'm.... glad you agree that what happened was not the Bene Gesserit's doing by sending a teacher there.

Corrik posted...

A lot of the things falling into place was the Bene Gesserit's doing with sending the teacher there. Jessica did a lot of coaching to him also in what to say based on the teachings.

I just... I don't get people sometimes.

They didn't send the teacher there for him specifically. Jessica knew the teachings spread and they used them to their advantage.
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Anyways Tom, if you are interested about learning more about what happened through the book that maybe you didn't pick up on, you might want to listen to Comic Book Girl 19's Dune Club sessions. It was kind of a book club.

I followed along with this as I read the book (in fact, it's why I first read it a year ago), and it was really insightful. There's a lot going on in this book, and it's very easy to see why Dune is considered such a classic, like a LotR of the sci fi genre.

She would assign a group of pages and then do a session summarizing and explaining what happened, then did a Q&A video where people asked questions and delved a little deeper into what was going on.

First session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryc-YQ_6Hvg" data-time="

First session Q&A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C9RFMzvoDQ" data-time="
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you kinda have to accept that it's ultimately a 'chosen one' power fantasy
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CoolCly posted...

I don't accept the Bene Gesserit's influence as an explanation for everything happening as ordained. I accept it as a useful tool that Jessica definitely exploited. It makes sense when Jessica just "happens" to say exactly the thing they are expecting, because she's intentionally manipulating them and knows all about the previously implanted legends by Bene Gesserit who have visited the Fremen in the past.

But it's very clear that this isn't what's happening with Paul. He isn't saying things because Jessica told him to - he very clearly observes the reaction the common Fremen have to offhand comments he makes. It even kind of annoys him.

You might make the argument that Jessica manipulated Paul into unknowingly saying these things, but I don't agree with that. Paul is very aware of Jessica's manipulative nature and can usually tell when she's trying to subtly influence him.

Plus there's the fact that what happens with the Fremen isn't actually what the Bene Gesserit as an organization intended - Jessica just utilized them with her knowledge because of her love for her son, not for the aims of her organization or for the realization of the Kwisatz Hadarach. The Mother Superior was not pleased when Paul faced the Emperor.

Well I think you actually touch on most of the reasons it was happening with these observations. It's not exactly that Paul consciously is trying to manipulate them, but as the Chosen One he doesn't have to try. The Bene Gesserit have set up this convoluted plan with this religiously susceptible civilization, and even though it's not what the Bene Gesserit intended, Paul and Jessica are "close enough" that they can pretty easily co-opt it. Once they get the ball rolling, the prophecy is self-fulfilling. It barely matters what Paul says because he's the Chosen One and whatever he does must be what the Chosen One would do.

It's been a few years and I only read the first 3 books, so forgive me if I'm talking out of my ass, but a major theme of the books was Paul's inability to affect the destiny that was engineered for him.

And yeah, the first book is well-written but still a total power fantasy.
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