Current Events > Level grinding: yay or nay?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I often would spend dozens of hours running around getting into enemy encounters.
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extremely big nay

forget going for more encounters than the standard amount, I specifically try to get fewer encounters than the standard amount
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Nay to requiring it.

Yay to making it seem like the only way but if you're really good at the game you can win at ridiculously low levels (Final Fantasy X being the master of this, where you can even beat all but one of the optional superbosses at literally the levels you start the game at).
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I enjoy the mindlessness of it sometimes
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Nay

If I can control it and can actively avoid or initiate combat then it's fine. I don't like random encounters, some game like Skies of Arcadia (Dreamcast version) took random encounters to a ridiculous degree
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i like how bravely default did it, since you can literally move a slider to select how frequent encounters are and also speed up the battles themselves

Nay. Level grinding was a mix of "shit we need to pad the game for time" and "earn it bitch"

In RPGs especially, there does need to be a balance, but if you're expecting me to waste 30 hours to gain say just 5 levels across 2,000 battles...I'm going to get annoyed really fast.
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Yay.
At long as you can accomplish the game without it.
D2 did it really well.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Yay.
At long as you can accomplish the game without it.
D2 did it really well.

This. Requiring players to grind simply to progress normally is kind of shitty. Like I should be able to progress at the minimal level and not have to raise myself 5 levels just so I dont die on the first hit of a major encounter.
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Yay.
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Kaiganeer posted...

i like how bravely default did it, since you can literally move a slider to select how frequent encounters are and also speed up the battles themselves

Strongly agree with this. Plus you could automate the battle too. It was made for grinding.
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I've probably mentioned before, I'm (very slowly) working on a full-blown remake of my RPG Maker Project (this time using a custom-written engine).

One thing I've been very strongly considering is doing away with levels altogether, to avoid any perception of "oh I need to grind more" - because with the difficulty as it is, the game can easily come across this way otherwise. However, the only idea I can come up with on how to do that without something else just becoming a grinding substitute (eg. grinding for item drops and/or money to get better equipment) is to do away with all random / recurring encounters too, and essentially make every battle a boss, just some of them less boss-y than others.
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I used to grind all the time in FF7 and 8 and 10 and SoA.

Now I don't have the patience for it unfortunately
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DarkTransient posted...

One thing I've been very strongly considering is doing away with levels altogether, to avoid any perception of "oh I need to grind more" - because with the difficulty as it is, the game can easily come across this way otherwise.

one thing you could do is give all enemies a "level" as well, and if you're above that level when you battle them they give no drops/exp. or maybe they just don't spawn at all, to streamline things even more.

Means you still have space for a certain number of random encounters and space for grinding to a certain extent but it cannot just be used to solve any issues the player runs into
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kirbymuncher posted...

DarkTransient posted...

One thing I've been very strongly considering is doing away with levels altogether, to avoid any perception of "oh I need to grind more" - because with the difficulty as it is, the game can easily come across this way otherwise.

one thing you could do is give all enemies a "level" as well, and if you're above that level when you battle them they give no drops/exp. or maybe they just don't spawn at all, to streamline things even more.

Means you still have space for a certain number of random encounters and space for grinding to a certain extent but it cannot just be used to solve any issues the player runs into

I actually somewhat did this in the original version. Most (not all) enemies do have a certain level. If you're far below this level you actually gain extra EXP (but only the normal AP) for defeating them. If you're at it, you gain the normal amounts of both. As you go above it, you get less EXP (though it never goes below something like 50% of the normal amount) and less AP (this one will go down to zero at merely a few levels above the enemy's level). Enemies without a level always give normal EXP and AP, although most such enemies give 0 EXP (but usually a significant amount of AP) in the first place, generally bosses.

EXP is used for levelling up and increasing stats and is completely automatic; AP is stockpiled and can be spent on learning new abilities (towards the endgame you can quite easily unlock everything, but you have to make very tough choices in the early stages as to what you learn).

Even so, grinding still happened quite often. One player levelled up to about Level 50 to defeat Dark Transient (yes, that's where my username came from), and still struggled. Intended level for him is about level 30, with the low-level-game record (as far as I know) being around level 15. Which is why I worry about the possibility that "you need to improve your setup / strategy" being mistaken for "you need to grind more".
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Hell no. I avoid a lot of JRPGs any more because so many of them are built on tedious grinding it seems.

DarkTransient posted...

Even so, grinding still happened quite often.

Cutting exp yield of enemies, to some people, is not a "please stop grinding" but a "ahaha I'm evil now you need to grind TWICE as much!"

which is why I suggested just removing the exp yield entirely. don't scale it down, just cut it suddenly right now to nothing. If the players literally cannot grind, they'll realize there most be another answer
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Nay for main story
Yay for sidequests/hidden bosses/post-game
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One thing that's interesting to me is the way non-RPGs lately are using levels not for grinding but as like a reward system. Rocket League has leveling up; Forza Horizon has it, etc.

Some people like the loop of having short term goals and rewards, however small for reaching them.
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i'd be fine with mindless grinding if i'm going through new and interesting stuff to do it
item worlds in disgaea are procedurally generated and get increasingly difficult as they go on, making them a fun and rewarding grind in more ways than one

Ehhh
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Antifar posted...

One thing that's interesting to me is the way non-RPGs lately are using levels not for grinding but as like a reward system. Rocket League has leveling up; Forza Horizon has it, etc.

Some people like the loop of having short term goals and rewards, however small for reaching them.

I never really got the point of leveling up in RL though. It was fun at first but then it just becomes a grind and loses its meaning.
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Hexenherz posted...

Antifar posted...

One thing that's interesting to me is the way non-RPGs lately are using levels not for grinding but as like a reward system. Rocket League has leveling up; Forza Horizon has it, etc.

Some people like the loop of having short term goals and rewards, however small for reaching them.

I never really got the point of leveling up in RL though. It was fun at first but then it just becomes a grind and loses its meaning.

Yeah. At least in FH3 and The Crew 2 now there are tangible rewards to leveling up beyond just the number by your name
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Godnorgosh posted...

DarkTransient posted...

One thing I've been very strongly considering is doing away with levels altogether, to avoid any perception of "oh I need to grind more" - because with the difficulty as it is, the game can easily come across this way otherwise. However, the only idea I can come up with on how to do that without something else just becoming a grinding substitute

Ooh, ooh! Drawing magic!

Yes, a prime example of what I don't want to achieve.

One idea could be that you could farm useful equipment, but only to a point - you could, for example, get everyone an HP+5% armor, but you can't stack them and get +100% HP, unlike how you could grind levels endlessly.
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