Board 8 > Mafia discussion topic v2... with better arguments

(+) Yeah! (+)

2 town bulletproofs?

How the **** did you ok that in a balance check? Two town BPs is NEVER ok (And if they were permanent BPs, that's even worse), much less in a game of only 14 players.

Good lord that game never should've been allowed to happen.
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Well I guess Im glad my game didnt become that
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Meow1000 posted...

Leo3Leo3Leo posted...

Blade you have the worst luck of all to wind up in so many terrible mafia games. I read that anonymous mafia day one last week. I know.

um what is this about???????

I was "Third Party Automatically Lost The Game" and got myself modkilled day 1 after claiming because I had a fraction of a percent of a chance of winning and wasn't going to give the effort.

oh another anonymous game. ok.

Meow1000 posted...

2 town bulletproofs?

How the **** did you ok that in a balance check? Two town BPs is NEVER ok (And if they were permanent BPs, that's even worse), much less in a game of only 14 players.

Good lord that game never should've been allowed to happen.

the power roles had to give the powers out, I thought they were one shots. Apparently not because they gave out 2 bps
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Cop Gift Giver
BP Gift Giver
Vig Gift Giver
Doctor
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Godfather
RB Gift Giver
Role Cop
Thief

list I was given

Mehcanics
when gems are stolen gift givers lose ability and become vanilla
Each gift can only be given to the same player once.
Gifts are given during the day phase and must be submitted before day end
Only 1 action can be taken per night. (if you receive more then 1 gift you can't use both in same night) BP is passive and only prevents 1 kill
Gifts are all 1 shot
Theift obtains all gems he exits the game in victory, he may visit dead bodies for those that hold the gems
I am thinking the first post of the game should have something that mentions the gems but doesn't get into much detail about it
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Meow1000 posted...

2 town bulletproofs?

How the **** did you ok that in a balance check? Two town BPs is NEVER ok (And if they were permanent BPs, that's even worse), much less in a game of only 14 players.

Good lord that game never should've been allowed to happen.

There were zero town BP

I was a BP giver

There was also a doctor

Game wasnt unbalanced, you just didnt try and that made it hard for scum to win
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Scare said two BPs not sure where he got that from.

DoubleTangicide posted...

Meow1000 posted...

2 town bulletproofs?

How the **** did you ok that in a balance check? Two town BPs is NEVER ok (And if they were permanent BPs, that's even worse), much less in a game of only 14 players.

Good lord that game never should've been allowed to happen.

There were zero town BP

I was a BP giver

There was also a doctor

Game wasnt unbalanced, you just didnt try and that made it hard for scum to win

And that's why the game was terribly designed. Scum needed a third party that had no chance of winning to clear the way for them to win instead of town.

The fact that Scare oked that game means no one should ever be balance checking with him.

Easy definition of imbalance that one side was so underpowered that they needed an independent to save their asses. One alignment should never be so underpowered that they need a third party to level the playing field for them. That's an awful use of third party.
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To be fair to Scare, I've also signed off on a game before that didn't end up quite like what was communicated to me at all. Sounds like there was some of that here as well.

my suggestion was to make the role cop a framer, but my interpretaion of the setup seemed balanced. He even outlined the worst case scenarios and mislynches. He put a lot of thought and effort but he executed the roles themselves wrong. If they are all one shot then I feel thats fine
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But speaking of third party balance, this is also why I've grown to hate survivor as a role. Survivor makes a game much harder to balance. You can't treat it like scum but it'll always side with scum at lylo. In most cases you're stuck either underpowering scum somewhat to compensate for it's existence or you end up overpowering scum just by having it exist.
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Worst survivor I've seen was the one who was a 1-shot vig. Fuck that.

Sure it sounds fun if you're the survivor, but basically whichever faction gets behind early in that game is guaranteed to lose because the independent just makes their situation even worse.

turbopuns2 posted...

the reader may find it interesting to note that I, as town cop, did what Alazakam did last game. forced myself into a situation to claim day 1 and claimed vanilla. then it was mylo and I had a guilty scan and people wouldn't follow me. :-(

I don't recall zam doing that :/
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Meow1000 posted...

But speaking of third party balance, this is also why I've grown to hate survivor as a role. Survivor makes a game much harder to balance. You can't treat it like scum but it'll always side with scum at lylo. In most cases you're stuck either underpowering scum somewhat to compensate for it's existence or you end up overpowering scum just by having it exist.

Should always count it as .5 scum.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

I don't recall zam doing that :/

Not the cop part, obviously. The claiming vanilla day 1 as power then revealing power later.

turbopuns2 posted...

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I don't recall zam doing that :/

Not the cop part, obviously. The claiming vanilla day 1 as power then revealing power later.

He didn't even do that. Not really.

He revealed his role but then lied about his actions which did significantly more harm than doing nothing at all.
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Corrik posted...

Meow1000 posted...

But speaking of third party balance, this is also why I've grown to hate survivor as a role. Survivor makes a game much harder to balance. You can't treat it like scum but it'll always side with scum at lylo. In most cases you're stuck either underpowering scum somewhat to compensate for it's existence or you end up overpowering scum just by having it exist.

Should always count it as .5 scum.

Which is why it's always hard to actually balance a game around it.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

He didn't even do that. Not really.

He revealed his role but then lied about his actions which did significantly more harm than doing nothing at all.

I mean he literally did do what I said. Quite objectively lol.

turbopuns2 posted...

claiming vanilla day 1 as power then revealing power later.

turbopuns2 posted...

Forceful_Dragon posted...

He didn't even do that. Not really.

He revealed his role but then lied about his actions which did significantly more harm than doing nothing at all.

I mean he literally did do what I said. Quite objectively lol.

turbopuns2 posted...

claiming vanilla day 1 as power then revealing power later.

But he lied about his actions.
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The way I claimed cop in the game Leo referenced also did more harm than good.

I wasn't anticipating MyLo by day 3, and by that point town were super skeptical of a cop claim with a guilty scan at MyLo who previously claimed vanilla.

Meow1000 posted...

But he lied about his actions.

Lying about doctor saves is not quite the same as lying about cop scans.

>_>

When both doc targets are literally flipped Mafia at the time of your claim.

>___>

Ok I see your point that telling town you saved actual town when you didn't could be self-destructive in some cases.

Fair.

But I don't know why we are having this conversation. All I was pointing out was we both claimed vanilla day 1 as power and later revealed we were power. That was pretty much the extent of it.

Boredom waiting for Gravy

Except he's still like 7 signups short
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Gravy should host a 13 player game. Such a good number.

@Meow1000 posted...

Boredom waiting for Gravy

Except he's still like 7 signups short

Perhaps is we post the sign ups on the mafia board?
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I only took umbrage with you saying turbopuns2 posted...

then revealing power later.

He revealed something sure but it was unrelated to his actual powers.

To the point of not admitting that he saved the same person the vig shot at.
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Meow1000 posted...

Corrik posted...

Meow1000 posted...

But speaking of third party balance, this is also why I've grown to hate survivor as a role. Survivor makes a game much harder to balance. You can't treat it like scum but it'll always side with scum at lylo. In most cases you're stuck either underpowering scum somewhat to compensate for it's existence or you end up overpowering scum just by having it exist.

Should always count it as .5 scum.

Which is why it's always hard to actually balance a game around it.

Yeah. You are moreso balancing around on how many mislynches it takes to win the game for scum. Gambler/vig is a good role to add in with survivor. Vig could hurt town and basically be a .5 town role or it could hurt scum and eliminate the .5 survivor scum advantage.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

To the point of not admitting that he saved the same person the vig shot at.

Did Zam claim the same day Chris was lynched?

If so, then yeah, OK I concede.

Hey speaking of reminiscing, remember how when Dels hosted anonymous mafia off-site, the Night 1 kills were Blade and Chris?

Good times.

In fairness it was because I was kicking ass.
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Should I post a filler game to pass the time until Gravy's monster game fills up
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RogueNoble posted...

Should I post a filler game to pass the time until Gravy's monster game fills up

I was just thinking of the most appropriate way to post on the forum mafia board to do the same thing

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/76731480
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Hey leo remember when I hosted that 1-hour all vengeful townie game that ended up being a big disappointment for you

I didn't even try to hide my identity in that game

"Oh"
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Meow1000 posted...

I didn't even try to hide my identity in that game

Which is why you were killed. Without question.

Chris's story...isn't quite as airtight. :D

Suprak the Stud posted...

And puns your argument was the game wasnt over because survivor can side with town. They cant.

See here is what you're missing

They CAN, and not necessarily on PURPOSE

because there is UNCERTAINTY in the setup

Mafia know who mafia are, confirmed by the host. That's why if it's 2 Mafia, 2 Town, you can call it. Because Mafia are BLATANTLY going against their win condition if they vote for their teammate

But mafia DON'T KNOW if there is a survivor

And survivor DOESN'T KNOW who is mafia

Therefore there is uncertainty in the result if you just let the day play out

Uncertainty means NOT "inevitable", therefore auto-processing scum victory is logically invalid

And you're still the only person in the entire topic acting like anyone other than you has brought up 2-2-1 during the day is an auto scum victory.

Scum wins eventually for sure but it's not an "auto".

Like at this point you're only arguing with yourself.
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I believe you to be incorrect.

But Im not rehashing the debate. Ill go back and read your post and you can read mine and well call it a day and save ourselves some time.
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Meow1000 posted...

And you're still the only person in the entire topic acting like anyone other than you has brought up 2-2-1 during the day is an auto scum victory.

Like at this point you're only arguing with yourself.

You clearly didn't read the last topic because multiple people agreed with me.

SE and Nana, to name two.

And you aren't even refuting my logic.

Edit: wait i misread your post

People definitely, DEFINITELY said 2-2-1 was automatic victory. That's how the whole conversation started. Corrik and Suprak, to name two.

Suprak I'm honestly amazed you can't see the logic in that! But it is what it is i guess.

Suprak the Stud posted...

I believe you to be incorrect.

But Im not rehashing the debate. Ill go back and read your post and you can read mine and well call it a day and save ourselves some time.

So if both mafia vote for one town and both town vote for one mafia and the survivor votes for mafia then the mafia happen to shoot the survivor then final 3 is 2 town and 1 mafia and you just robbed town of a potential victory.
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turbopuns2 posted...

Meow1000 posted...

And you're still the only person in the entire topic acting like anyone other than you has brought up 2-2-1 during the day is an auto scum victory.

Like at this point you're only arguing with yourself.

You clearly didn't read the last topic because multiple people agreed with me.

SE and Nana, to name two.

And you aren't even refuting my logic.

You have never argued the same point. What you've argued is a separate matter entirely.

During the DAY. The game is not over. During the NIGHT, the day is. Your argument only focuses on crying "Why is the game over during the day!?"

You're not actually arguing against anyone, you're ignoring the actual argument while pretending to be involved.

You're making an argument to hear yourself argue with yourself. Give it a rest already.

During the day the game is alive. During the night the game is over. Stop crying about "Why is the game over if it's day?"

That isn't the question. The question is does Survivor win with scum immediately if it's 2-2-1 going into night, and it does.
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This isnt even what this debate started as and it is beyond a waste to talk about this as Id never even use survivor and IGCDs games would have like ten other things crazier in it for balance issues.

So.
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IfGodCouldDie posted...

So if both mafia vote for one town and both town vote for one mafia and the survivor votes for mafia then the mafia happen to shoot the survivor then final 3 is 2 town and 1 mafia and you just robbed town of a potential victory.

IGCD, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but just let it go. Nobody's opinion is going to change here. We've already gone like 300 posts about it.

Suprak the Stud posted...

This isnt even what this debate started as and it is beyond a waste to talk about this as Id never even use survivor and IGCDs games would have like ten other things crazier in it for balance issues.

So.

Because he's ignoring the actual question and constantly parroting his own for no damned reason.
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Wait so is the argument people saying auto win is that if its x-x-y going in to night, as long as there is no way for town to stop a kill the game is won?
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Meow1000 posted...

During the day the game is alive. During the night the game is over. Stop crying about "Why is the game over if it's day?"

Look, I have no personal beef with you. But you've clearly gotten an incorrect understanding, most likely from only partially reading the topic.

I'm not going to argue with you about this, Blade, because I like you and it's clear you have misunderstood somewhere.

I regret bringing the topic into chris's thread. I didn't anticipate this, which was my mistake. I thought it would be something funny we could all just chuckle about, because i thought we'd put the issue to bed.

It was an error in judgement on my part.

Nah dont blame yourself puns I shouldnt have responded because I was afraid it was going to spiral again.

So, sorry!
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Nah dont blame yourself puns I shouldnt have responded because I was afraid it was going to spiral again.

So, sorry!

Yes I messed up by responding to you here. I wish I hadn't.

I mean like it's fine. I'm over it now, just got ugly again for a minute.