Current Events > Do you think gay bakers should be allowed to refuse to serve Christians?

(+) Yeah! (+)

CanuckCowboy posted...

Why didn't you consider tattoo artists who refuse to do tats in certain areas or of certain things? Couldn't easily and poorly refute it huh?

Have you ever heard of a tattoo artist refusing to do tattoos for people of a certain race? :v
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Abyssea posted...

BillWardsPants posted...

I dont think theres much of a chance that Christians are buying their wedding cakes from gay bakers.

You would be surprised. There's a lot of homosexuals in the artsy fields, culinary arts included :v Hell, I'd say a good portion of wedding dresses were designed by gay men to begin with.

Think about all these Christian brides who have walked down the aisle in a dress designed by a gay. Oh the humanity...

That's not remotely surprising to anyone.

Jesus are you ever biased.
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CanuckCowboy posted...

Abyssea posted...

BillWardsPants posted...

I dont think theres much of a chance that Christians are buying their wedding cakes from gay bakers.

You would be surprised. There's a lot of homosexuals in the artsy fields, culinary arts included :v Hell, I'd say a good portion of wedding dresses were designed by gay men to begin with.

Think about all these Christian brides who have walked down the aisle in a dress designed by a gay. Oh the humanity...

That's not remotely surprising to anyone.

Jesus are you ever biased.

It was a surprise to Billward. :v
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Abyssea posted...

CanuckCowboy posted...

Why didn't you consider tattoo artists who refuse to do tats in certain areas or of certain things? Couldn't easily and poorly refute it huh?

Have you ever heard of a tattoo artist refusing to do tattoos for people of a certain race? :v

That's not comparable.

They will refuse tats based on certain ideology, possible future consequences, certain symbols etc....

If they cake wasn't expressly advertising a gay lifestyle how would the baker even know the peiple were gay? My point has nothing to do with who they clients are. it's about the product itself.
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Abyssea posted...

CanuckCowboy posted...

Abyssea posted...

BillWardsPants posted...

I dont think theres much of a chance that Christians are buying their wedding cakes from gay bakers.

You would be surprised. There's a lot of homosexuals in the artsy fields, culinary arts included :v Hell, I'd say a good portion of wedding dresses were designed by gay men to begin with.

Think about all these Christian brides who have walked down the aisle in a dress designed by a gay. Oh the humanity...

That's not remotely surprising to anyone.

Jesus are you ever biased.

It was a surprise to Billward. :v

His post didn't imply that he wasn't aware that gay people are frequently employed in a creative field....
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Abyssea posted...

CanuckCowboy posted...

Why didn't you consider tattoo artists who refuse to do tats in certain areas or of certain things? Couldn't easily and poorly refute it huh?

Have you ever heard of a tattoo artist refusing to do tattoos for people of a certain race? :v

Can the Jewish tattoo artist refuse service for a Nazi who wants a swastika?
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CanuckCowboy posted...

That's not comparable.

They will refuse tats based on certain ideology, possible future consequences, certain symbols etc....

If they cake wasn't expressly advertising a gay lifestyle how would the baker even know the peiple were gay? My point has nothing to do with who they clients are. it's about the product itself.

How does a cake "advertise" for a lifestyle? It was a cake for a wedding, made no different than any other wedding cake. Half the time they're pre-made. It exists for people to eat it.

If a white guy and black guy requested the same tattoo, would it make sense for them to refuse to work on the black guy?
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CanuckCowboy posted...

His post didn't imply that he wasn't aware that gay people are frequently employed in a creative field....

It didn't? How else would he suggest that Christians aren't buying cakes from gay people? Are christians able to sense a person is gay before they place an order?
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Abyssea posted...

CanuckCowboy posted...

That's not comparable.

They will refuse tats based on certain ideology, possible future consequences, certain symbols etc....

If they cake wasn't expressly advertising a gay lifestyle how would the baker even know the peiple were gay? My point has nothing to do with who they clients are. it's about the product itself.

How does a cake "advertise" for a lifestyle? It was a cake for a wedding, made no different than any other wedding cake. Half the time they're pre-made. It exists for people to eat it.

If a white guy and black guy requested the same tattoo, would it make sense for them to refuse to work on the black guy?

We're talking about a single specific cake now?

I shouldn't have went there anyways cause it's still irrelevant. If some shitty person has two men walk into his business and he's such a jackass that the fact they're marrying each other offends him and he doesn't want even a tiny offhand bit of involvement in it how does he not have the right to not take their money for his services?

Yes that baker is a fuck and a garbage tier human. Yes I think hope they go out of business. But why the fuck does that give anyone the right to tell him how to conduct his business?

And before you come back with "but what about if they're discriminating against a race" the fact is such a business would never fly outside of a specific target demographic of shit people. And there are white supremacist record labels and bands and websites and clothing companies operating as licensed businesses. That's a fact. What makes a baker different from another field of employment? Nothing.

If some shit can find a market of shits to make his specifically heterosexual cakes and whatnot whilst being openly against homosexuality (change that to racist and minority if you want it sill applies) they're are fully free to do so and they should remain so.

I don't like it. I dont agree with their views. But I do agree with freedom to be who you are and live as you choose. And if you can financially support yourself while doing so it's absolutely fucking insane to say "too bad you either embrace ____ or we'll shut you down" is a reasonable piece of legislation.
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Also you haven't acknowledged my point about gay Christians and the pope finally stating gays are made the way they are.

Heck you act like there aren't plenty of Christian churches who marry gay people.

I get the sense some part of you wants to see a huge group of people acting as one to persecute you just so you can point to their shittiness and condemn it.
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CanuckCowboy posted...

We're talking about a single specific cake now?

I shouldn't have went there anyways cause it's still irrelevant. If some s***ty person has two men walk into his business and he's such a jackass that the fact they're marrying each other offends him and he doesn't want even a tiny offhand bit of involvement in it how does he not have the right to not take their money for his services?

Yes that baker is a f*** and a garbage tier human. Yes I think hope they go out of business. But why the f*** does that give anyone the right to tell him how to conduct his business?

And before you come back with "but what about if they're discriminating against a race" the fact is such a business would never fly outside of a specific target demographic of s*** people. And there are white supremacist record labels and bands and websites and clothing companies operating as licensed businesses. That's a fact. What makes a baker different from another field of employment? Nothing.

If some s*** can find a market of s***s to make his specifically heterosexual cakes and whatnot whilst being openly against homosexuality (change that to racist and minority if you want it sill applies) they're are fully free to do so and they should remain so.

I don't like it. I dont agree with their views. But I do agree with freedom to be who you are and live as you choose. And if you can financially support yourself while doing so it's absolutely f***ing insane to say "too bad you either embrace ____ or we'll shut you down" is a reasonable piece of legislation.

Yes, I do get what you're saying. I guess what I'm trying to get at is why are Christians so willing to profit off of and make use of the talents of gay people, but won't turn around and offer them the same thing in return? :v Why do we get only dismissal?

I'm just saying, if anyone tries to refuse to bake me a cake, I will drag them through hell and back to get my cake. They will make that cake even if I have to bamboozle them to do so. I don't care if I have to hire a beard to pretend to be my fiance to get them to make that cake, but they're going to make that cake. I don't care if I have to pretend to be a "reformed" homosexual either. I don't mess around when it comes to baked goods. Your personal relationship with the lord isn't going to stand between me and that cake.
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CanuckCowboy posted...

Also you haven't acknowledged my point about gay Christians and the pope finally stating gays are made the way they are.

Heck you act like there aren't plenty of Christian churches who marry gay people.

I get the sense some part of you wants to see a huge group of people acting as one to persecute you just so you can point to their shittiness and condemn it.

I don't deny that there are understanding and open-minded Christians. Those aren't the sort of Christians I'm talking about here. :u I'm talking about the wacko, "won't bake you a cake" kind or the "no gays allowed in my hardware store" kind. Those are the kind that always seem to make headlines too.
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Abyssea posted...

CanuckCowboy posted...

Also you haven't acknowledged my point about gay Christians and the pope finally stating gays are made the way they are.

Heck you act like there aren't plenty of Christian churches who marry gay people.

I get the sense some part of you wants to see a huge group of people acting as one to persecute you just so you can point to their shittiness and condemn it.

I don't deny that there are understanding and open-minded Christians. Those aren't the sort of Christians I'm talking about here. :u I'm talking about the wacko, "won't bake you a cake" kind or the "no gays allowed in my hardware store" kind. Those are the kind that always seem to make headlines too.

Fair enough. I just feel like you should be clear about the fact you're talking about a certain group within a group.

Abyssea posted...

. I don't mess around when it comes to baked goods

I love this sentence.

On the rest of that post I'm torn between fuck yeah get it done man and "dude why the fuck would you even want those people to do it?"i mean I'm straight and I wouldn't want to give them business. Only worth it if you make a point of somehow rubbing it in their faces afterwards really. But even then you gave em money....
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CanuckCowboy posted...

On the rest of that post I'm torn between f*** yeah get it done man and "dude why the f*** would you even want those people to do it?"i mean I'm straight and I wouldn't want to give them business. Only worth it if you make a point of somehow rubbing it in their faces afterwards really. But even then you gave em money....

it depends on if they had a really specific sort of cake i wanted. :v you gotta fight for what's important to you
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Abyssea posted...

I think what gay guys should start doing is bringing their best girlfriend/good Judy with them to the bakery to order the cake, and pretend it is the two of you getting married. :v then once you pick it up just cross out her name and write in the other guy's name.

If you marry a guy named Adrian or Jesse you could just have her say that's her name instead and save some time.

But why would you want to give them your business? A business should want your business, not the other way around. So take it elsewhere, fuck them
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Abyssea posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Rather than hating on what you don't fully understand, you should make an effort to accept and appreciate people for their differences.

If only Christians would follow suit.

Agreed. A lot of Christians are hypocritical. But for the record, refusing service because performing that service would cause you to go against your religious beliefs is not hate.
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Abyssea posted...

Just to make things fair? If Christians don't want to bake cakes for us, why should we have to bake cakes for them?

It's not about who the people are (it never was), it's about the occasion being catered.

A gay wedding is different from just some gay person's birthday.

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.
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Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If that's all it is about, then why aren't they refusing to serve men/women who are on their third marriage or have a bunch of kids out of wedlock? Why are they picking this specific hill to die on?
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Yup.
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Abyssea posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If that's all it is about, then why aren't they refusing to serve men/women who are on their third marriage or have a bunch of kids out of wedlock? Why are they picking this specific hill to die on?

It's about participating in a "sinful occasion". It's not about serving "sinners" personally.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

Abyssea posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If that's all it is about, then why aren't they refusing to serve men/women who are on their third marriage or have a bunch of kids out of wedlock? Why are they picking this specific hill to die on?

It's about participating in a "sinful occasion". It's not about serving "sinners" personally.

There's nothing inherently sinful about a gay wedding though. The bible says nothing about them.The bible just speaks to the sex.

So maybe the bakers should just stop imagining what goes on in the couple's bedroom after the wedding? :v They could be celibate life partners for all you know. It really isn't any of your business. The gay couple isn't asking what goes on in your bedroom, maybe give them the same courtesy?
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Abyssea posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

Abyssea posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If that's all it is about, then why aren't they refusing to serve men/women who are on their third marriage or have a bunch of kids out of wedlock? Why are they picking this specific hill to die on?

It's about participating in a "sinful occasion". It's not about serving "sinners" personally.

There's nothing inherently sinful about a gay wedding though. The bible says nothing about them.The bible just speaks to the sex.

So maybe the bakers should just stop imagining what goes on in the couple's bedroom after the wedding? :v They could be celibate life partners for all you know. It really isn't any of your business. The gay couple isn't asking what goes on in your bedroom, maybe give them the same courtesy?

I'm pretty sure the Bible heavily implies gay weddings are a sin even if not stated directly, lol

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I'm pretty sure the Bible heavily implies gay weddings are a sin even if not stated directly, lol

I've read it, and the only thing it talks about is the act of sodomy. :v Says nothing about two guys shacking up and raising a dog together.
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Abyssea posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I'm pretty sure the Bible heavily implies gay weddings are a sin even if not stated directly, lol

I've read it, and the only thing it talks about is the act of sodomy. :v Says nothing about two guys shacking up and raising a dog together.

You're taking a super literal stance here.

Anyone should be allowed to refuse to serve anyone they want for any reason they want.
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yes

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

Abyssea posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I'm pretty sure the Bible heavily implies gay weddings are a sin even if not stated directly, lol

I've read it, and the only thing it talks about is the act of sodomy. :v Says nothing about two guys shacking up and raising a dog together.

You're taking a super literal stance here.

I'm just going by the letter here. If God didn't specify that he didn't like gay weddings, I doubt he's going to mind if you serve some homosexuals some cake on their big day. Why would he? You serving that cake has absolutely nothing to do with what they do in the bedroom. It's just cake.

I could understand if Christians wanted the couple to sign a release that said "you won't feed your partner any portion of this cake whilst in the act of love making", that'd make sense. :v

It sounds to me like people are just looking for an excuse to refuse people because they don't like them.
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Abyssea posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

Abyssea posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I'm pretty sure the Bible heavily implies gay weddings are a sin even if not stated directly, lol

I've read it, and the only thing it talks about is the act of sodomy. :v Says nothing about two guys shacking up and raising a dog together.

You're taking a super literal stance here.

I'm just going by the letter here. If God didn't specify that he didn't like gay weddings, I doubt he's going to mind if you serve some homosexuals some cake on their big day. Why would he? You serving that cake has absolutely nothing to do with what they do in the bedroom. It's just cake.

I could understand if Christians wanted the couple to sign a release that said "you won't feed your partner any portion of this cake whilst in the act of love making", that'd make sense. :v

It sounds to me like people are just looking for an excuse to refuse people because they don't like them.

I'm pretty sure it's one of those things that was so asinine a concept to the ancient world they wouldn't have to include it. You have to look at what marriage was back then. It was a man requesting that another man trade his daughter to him in exchange for cattle, land, etc. (that's why they called them husbands, because daughters were treated like livestock). You can see how this was basically an invalid concept when it involves another man. Even up into the middle ages and Renaissance marriage was in a similar situation. The practice of choosing our own partners as free individuals is relatively recent.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I'm pretty sure it's one of those things that was so asinine a concept to the ancient world they wouldn't have to include it. You have to look at what marriage was back then. It was a man requesting that another man trade his daughter to him in exchange for cattle, land, etc. (that's why they called them husbands, because daughters were treated like livestock). You can see how this was basically an invalid concept when it involves another man. Even up into the middle ages and Renaissance marriage was in a similar situation. The practice of choosing our own partners as free individuals is relatively recent.

well, god knows everything that ever will be right? :v we have an entire book on how the world is supposed to end after all. so he had to have known about this turn of events and chose to stay silent about it.
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Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If yout beliefs tell you to discriminate, fuck your beliefs and deal with the person anyway.

"Don't discriminate, unless you believe really hard that you shouldn't deal with those people"
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hockeybub89 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If yout beliefs tell you to discriminate, fuck your beliefs and deal with the person anyway.

"Don't discriminate, unless you believe really hard that you shouldn't deal with those people"

Can you not read?
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Vindris_SNH posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If yout beliefs tell you to discriminate, fuck your beliefs and deal with the person anyway.

"Don't discriminate, unless you believe really hard that you shouldn't deal with those people"

Can you not read?

I am saying they should be forced to go against their religious beliefs if following their religious beliefs would result in discriminating. We have to be bigger than our beliefs to make this whole society thing work.
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Yes. A private business owner should be allowed to refuse any customer they want. Then society is allowed to boycot that business.

An_Actual_Chad posted...

Yes. A private business owner should be allowed to refuse any customer they want. Then society is allowed to boycot that business.

This implies that a boycott is a forgone conclusion and guaranteed effective. In a truly free market, there are places where discrimination could win. Do we really want to legalize sundown towns against all kinds of peoples? Is that really preferable to simply enforcing anti-discrimination laws?
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hockeybub89 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't get why people want companies to be able to discriminate.

They don't. This isn't about discrimination. It's about not being forced to do something that goes against your religious beliefs.

If yout beliefs tell you to discriminate, fuck your beliefs and deal with the person anyway.

"Don't discriminate, unless you believe really hard that you shouldn't deal with those people"

Can you not read?

I am saying they should be forced to go against their religious beliefs if following their religious beliefs would result in discriminating. We have to be bigger than our beliefs to make this whole society thing work.

I don't know why you're still talking about discrimination when I've already proved that what these bakers are doing isn't discrimination, assuming that I'm accurate in my assessment of their motives.
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Asherlee10 posted...

That amount of mental gymnastics it takes to (unsuccessfully) attempt to show that this is somehow not discrimination is very disappointing and disheartening.

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Asherlee10 posted...

That amount of mental gymnastics it takes to (unsuccessfully) attempt to show that this is somehow not discrimination is very disappointing and disheartening.

Calling a logical conclusion "mental gymnastics" is an awfully weak and lazy attempt at shutting it down.

If this were discrimination, the bakers wouldn't serve gay people at all. They have no problem serving gay people, unless serving them causes them to take part in the celebration of something they believe is morally wrong. If a straight person asked them to bake a cake that said "fuck Jesus", they probably wouldn't do it, and for the same reason. That would have nothing to do with discrimination, just as this doesn't.

That doesn't come close to mental gymnastics, unless you have problems understanding basic concepts.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

That amount of mental gymnastics it takes to (unsuccessfully) attempt to show that this is somehow not discrimination is very disappointing and disheartening.

Calling a logical conclusion "mental gymnastics" is an awfully weak and lazy attempt at shutting it down.

If this were discrimination, the bakers wouldn't serve gay people at all. They have no problem serving gay people, unless serving them causes them to take part in the celebration of something they believe is morally wrong. If a straight person asked them to bake a cake that said "fuck Jesus", they probably wouldn't do it, and for the same reason. That would have nothing to do with discrimination, just as this doesn't.

That doesn't come close to mental gymnastics, unless you have problems understanding basic concepts.

The thing is, you don't have a logical conclusion and you are exhibiting mental gymnastics to try to push an obtuse viewpoint that makes little to no sense.

You also seem to think that discrimination has to be consistent in order for it to be discrimination. That's beyond silly.

Let me go back and reiterate, and try to make this simple for you...

Would a Christian baker bake a cake that said "Fuck Jesus!" for a gay customer?

No.

Does that have anything to do with the fact that they are gay?

No.

Therefore, is it discrimination?

No.

Now, apply the same reasoning to the gay wedding cake scenario.

If you can't understand something that simple, then we're never going to get anywhere.
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For the TC's question, no, the bakers should not be able to refuse service.

To everyone else, what's the difference between a heterosexual wedding cake and a homosexual wedding cake? A Christian wedding cake and a Muslim wedding cake?
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It's my long standing belief that private businesses should be able to turn down any customer for any reason so long as there's a comparable service. So my answer is yes. Most business owners who are going to turn down money for their discriminatory views will just make up something else anyway.
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Absolutely.
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Vindris_SNH posted...

Let me go back and reiterate, and try to make this simple for you...

Would a Christian baker bake a wedding cake for a gay customer?

They should. If they don't.

Does that have anything to do with the fact that they are gay?

Yes.

Therefore, is it discrimination?

Yes.

If you can't understand something that simple, then we're never going to get anywhere.

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Asherlee10 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

That amount of mental gymnastics it takes to (unsuccessfully) attempt to show that this is somehow not discrimination is very disappointing and disheartening.

Calling a logical conclusion "mental gymnastics" is an awfully weak and lazy attempt at shutting it down.

If this were discrimination, the bakers wouldn't serve gay people at all. They have no problem serving gay people, unless serving them causes them to take part in the celebration of something they believe is morally wrong. If a straight person asked them to bake a cake that said "fuck Jesus", they probably wouldn't do it, and for the same reason. That would have nothing to do with discrimination, just as this doesn't.

That doesn't come close to mental gymnastics, unless you have problems understanding basic concepts.

The thing is, you don't have a logical conclusion and you are exhibiting mental gymnastics to try to push an obtuse viewpoint that makes little to no sense.

You also seem to think that discrimination has to be consistent in order for it to be discrimination. That's beyond silly.

Let me go back and reiterate, and try to make this simple for you...

Would a Christian baker bake a cake that said "Fuck Jesus!" for a gay customer?

No.

Does that have anything to do with the fact that they are gay?

No.

Therefore, is it discrimination?

No.

Now, apply the same reasoning to the gay wedding cake scenario.

If you can't understand something that simple, then we're never going to get anywhere.

That is in no way related to the scenario and again, here you are trying to use mental gymnastics to make your point that this is somehow not discrimination. It is discrimination and there is no skirting around it.

What is also upsetting is that you are batting so heavily on the wrong side here. What the fuck?

Since you're still not getting it...

Let's say a gay man goes into this Christian bakery and says, "I'm gay! Will you please make me a birthday cake?" The baker will have no problem making the cake, because they're helping someone (who happens to be gay) celebrate their birthday. In this case, they are not taking part in the celebration of homosexuality, they are simply helping someone to celebrate the day of their birth.

Why do you think the baker is willing to serve a gay person for their birthday, but not for their wedding? If they were discriminatory against gay people, why are they willing to serve them in some scenarios, but not in others?

The answer is what I've been telling you all along.
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How is a gay wedding a celebration of homosexuality though? That might be your personal definition of it, but deciding how you treat people based on your personal biases is the very definition of discrimination.

To the gay couple, it is just a wedding. You're refusing to serve them in the way you'd serve anyone else ordering something for a wedding, and that makes it discrimination.
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Abyssea posted...

How is a gay wedding a celebration of homosexuality though? That might be your personal definition of it, but deciding how you treat people based on your personal biases is the very definition of discrimination.

To the gay couple, it is just a wedding. You're refusing to serve them in the way you'd serve anyone else ordering something for a wedding, and that makes it discrimination.

its a celebration of a homosexual union, which is sinful according to some christians