Current Events > Are mass shootings "part and parcel" of living in modern day America?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I recall when people moaned about London mayor Sadie Khan said preparing for terrorist attacks was part and parcel of living in modern cities. He got vilified for it by most in here despite being mostly misquoted.

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?
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Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.
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CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

They arent mutually exclusive.
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Crepes posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

They arent mutually exclusive.

But they are the two biggest reasons that are causing this.
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CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

They arent mutually exclusive.

But they are the two biggest reasons that are causing this.

Sure. Maybe. Doesnt change the fact they arent mutually exclusive.
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Don't worry about it. Just like it was considered racist and wrong to generalize the violent actions of religious extremists because they don't represent the larger group, we also need to recognize that school shootings are a really, really small statistic compared to the millions of people who own firearms. I mean the former is called fear mongering, so the latter isn't something to get too worked up about either. Or is this the point when we cherry pick what we can generalize, mainly based on which socio-political groups we like and don't like?
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Lorenzo_2003 posted...

Don't worry about it. Just like it was considered racist and wrong to generalize the violent actions of religious extremists because they don't represent the larger group, we also need to recognize that school shootings are a really, really small statistic compared to the millions of people who own firearms. I mean the former is called fear mongering, so the latter isn't something to get too worked up about either. Or is this the point when we cherry pick what we can generalize, mainly based on which socio-political groups we like and don't like?

There have been over a dozen mass shootings in schools in the last year
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Im not hear to express my own opinions. Im just interested in what others have to say.
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There definitely been an uptick in mass shootings, but saying its become part and parcel of living in America might be stretching it.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history

2017 was the worst year in 35 years for mass shootings, 2018 will probably be pretty bad as well. But I dont think we have enough data yet to say definitively the rate of such shootings will continue, these last 2 years might be outliers. I also think the media giving so much attention to these shooting might be playing into a self fulfilling prophecy of encouraging more people to do it
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I just want to clarify what I mean by part and parcel.

I mean that when it happens people in general just react to it in the same way of car accidents or robberies. In a kinda well duh of course there are car accidents. Kinda way.
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Kazi1212 posted...

I also think the media giving so much attention to these shooting might be playing into a self fulfilling prophecy of encouraging more people to do i

This has been a common complaint for the last decade. Criticisms of the media giving mass shooters publicity isnt something thats only happened in the last couple of years.
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Sadly it is, you have to be on alert for these sort of things.
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Crepes posted...

I just want to clarify what I mean by part and parcel.

I mean that when it happens people in general just react to it in the same way of car accidents or robberies. In a kinda well duh of course there are car accidents. Kinda way.

Given how much media attention and national spotlight there is around mass shootings, I doubt thats the case. I was just bringing up earlier in another topic how almost 10x more kids are killed each year due to drunk driving than shootings. But yet we barely a bat an eyelid when he hear of a drunk driving fatality, because its so damn common. Theres real preventative issues here that already goes under the radar because its become so common, I hope the same doesnt happen with mass shootings but well just have to wait and see how things play out.
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Crepes posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

I also think the media giving so much attention to these shooting might be playing into a self fulfilling prophecy of encouraging more people to do i

This has been a common complaint for the last decade. Criticisms of the media giving mass shooters publicity isnt something thats only happened in the last couple of years.

And how valid do you think the criticism is? According to the article I linked, it seems overall theres been a noticeable sharper uptick in the last decade or so compared to earlier decades.
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apparently
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CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

yeah remember how the school shootings in florida and texas were committed by kids from poor single parent households and targeted impoverished inner city schools
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CelestialVoices posted...

apparently

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Kazi1212 posted...

Crepes posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

I also think the media giving so much attention to these shooting might be playing into a self fulfilling prophecy of encouraging more people to do i

This has been a common complaint for the last decade. Criticisms of the media giving mass shooters publicity isnt something thats only happened in the last couple of years.

And how valid do you think the criticism is? According to the article I linked, it seems overall theres been a noticeable sharper uptick in the last decade or so compared to earlier decades.

I would argue its more likely the larger number of shootings in recent years has led to more publicity. Not the other way round.

Id be interested in seeing how the publicity per shooting is compared to previous years.

There is also a lot more debate on gun controls than there has been in the past which Id be interested in seeing a break down on.
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_____Cait posted...

Lorenzo_2003 posted...

Don't worry about it. Just like it was considered racist and wrong to generalize the violent actions of religious extremists because they don't represent the larger group, we also need to recognize that school shootings are a really, really small statistic compared to the millions of people who own firearms. I mean the former is called fear mongering, so the latter isn't something to get too worked up about either. Or is this the point when we cherry pick what we can generalize, mainly based on which socio-political groups we like and don't like?

There have been over a dozen mass shootings in schools in the last year

no there hasn't. There's only been three. Around the same amount of Islamist terror attacks that happened during the year that Khan made those comments. The other school shootings were either accidents, domestic or gang related.

Yes, if by modern day America you mean a Republican run America.
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Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

yeah remember how the school shootings in florida and texas were committed by kids from poor single parent households and targeted impoverished inner city schools

Piss-poor parenting can come from any class family so I don't know what argument you are trying to make.
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I do take offence that piss poor parenting and being poor financial are seen as being related.
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CarlGrimes posted...

Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

yeah remember how the school shootings in florida and texas were committed by kids from poor single parent households and targeted impoverished inner city schools

Piss-poor parenting can come from any class family so I don't know what argument you are trying to make.

Household income is by far the biggest factor in predicting child rearing outcomes and future success
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Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

yeah remember how the school shootings in florida and texas were committed by kids from poor single parent households and targeted impoverished inner city schools

Piss-poor parenting can come from any class family so I don't know what argument you are trying to make.

Household income is by far the biggest factor in predicting child rearing outcomes and future success

Perhaps. But that doesnt equate to piss poor parenting.
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Crepes posted...

Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

yeah remember how the school shootings in florida and texas were committed by kids from poor single parent households and targeted impoverished inner city schools

Piss-poor parenting can come from any class family so I don't know what argument you are trying to make.

Household income is by far the biggest factor in predicting child rearing outcomes and future success

Perhaps. But that doesnt equate to piss poor parenting.

Lets think of it another way. Do you think any of the mass shooters this year came from a generally normal loving family? I doubt thats the case, I would find it more plausible they come from abusive homes.
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It is more important to make sure that people with mental disorders have guns than to make sure that they get health care, so how can anybody be surprise every time we got another shooting?
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Kazi1212 posted...

Lets think of it another way. Do you think any of the mass shooters this year came from a generally normal loving family? I doubt thats the case, I would find it more plausible they come from abusive homes.

Im sure it wouldnt be too hard for you to find out and report back with evidence. Go forth young chick and let us hear your results when you return.
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Kazi1212 posted...

Crepes posted...

Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Frolex posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Crepes posted...

Do people feel its safe to say mass shootings are part and parcel of living in modern day anerica and should be reacted to appropriately?

No, it is due to piss-poor parenting and shitty schools.

yeah remember how the school shootings in florida and texas were committed by kids from poor single parent households and targeted impoverished inner city schools

Piss-poor parenting can come from any class family so I don't know what argument you are trying to make.

Household income is by far the biggest factor in predicting child rearing outcomes and future success

Perhaps. But that doesnt equate to piss poor parenting.

Lets think of it another way. Do you think any of the mass shooters this year came from a generally normal loving family? I doubt thats the case, I would find it more plausible they come from abusive homes.

Is there any evidence that the majority of school shooters, or even a significant amount of them, came from households with a history of abusive behavior?
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Foppe posted...

It is more important to make sure that people with mental disorders have guns than to make sure that they get health care, so how can anybody be surprise every time we got another shooting?

Hey there's no reason having a mental handicap would prevent you from being a good guy, and we all know the best solution to handle a bad guy with a gun.... So load him up!
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Crepes posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Lets think of it another way. Do you think any of the mass shooters this year came from a generally normal loving family? I doubt thats the case, I would find it more plausible they come from abusive homes.

Im sure it wouldnt be too hard for you to find out and report back with evidence. Go forth young chick and let us hear your results when you return.

Im merely asking what you intuitively think is more possible. Im also too lazy to look it up, I mean its your topic, if youre interested enough about these things you should do your own research, Im just throwing my basic thoughts into it. Though from what I read, a lot of mass shooters were also culprits of domestic violence(you can google for this), and people who generally engage in domestic violence also have a higher likelihood of being brought up in abusive homes.
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Since no one in power seems to be particularly able to stop them, I would say yes.
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Kazi1212 posted...

Im merely asking what you intuitively think is more possible. Im also too lazy to look it up, I mean its your topic, if youre interested enough about these things you should do your own research, Im just throwing my basic thoughts into it. Though from what I read, a lot of mass shooters were also culprits of domestic violence(you can google for this), and people who generally engage in domestic violence also have a higher likelihood of being brought up in abusive homes.

What people think "intuitively" of a subject is irrelevant without actual evidence to back it up, since anyone's arbitrary intuitions are equally valid no matter what they are by the virtue of them being arbitrary.
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Frolex posted...

Is there any evidence that the majority of school shooters, or even a significant amount of them, came from households with a history of abusive behavior?

I dont know about the school shooters, but many other mass shooters were also guilty of domestic violence, and people who commit domestic violence generally were also brought up in abusive households:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2017/1/10/14213164/mass-shooters-gun-violence-domestic-violence
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008Zulu posted...

Since no one in power seems to be particularly willing to stop them, I would say yes.

Ftfy
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Lorenzo_2003 posted...

Don't worry about it. Just like it was considered racist and wrong to generalize the violent actions of religious extremists because they don't represent the larger group, we also need to recognize that school shootings are a really, really small statistic compared to the millions of people who own firearms. I mean the former is called fear mongering, so the latter isn't something to get too worked up about either. Or is this the point when we cherry pick what we can generalize, mainly based on which socio-political groups we like and don't like?

except the government does alot about fighting terrorism. They don't for the latter

Frolex posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Im merely asking what you intuitively think is more possible. Im also too lazy to look it up, I mean its your topic, if youre interested enough about these things you should do your own research, Im just throwing my basic thoughts into it. Though from what I read, a lot of mass shooters were also culprits of domestic violence(you can google for this), and people who generally engage in domestic violence also have a higher likelihood of being brought up in abusive homes.

What people think "intuitively" of a subject is irrelevant without actual evidence to back it up, since anyone's arbitrary intuitions are equally valid no matter what they are by the virtue of them being arbitrary.

I mean sure, intuitions can be wrong, I dont know about totally irrelevant however. if our intuitions were totally off from reality on a consistent basis, I doubt our intuition would be as critical to living our daily lives as they are. In the absense of evidence, intuition is better than nothing. Theres obviously evidence in this case, but like I said, Im to lazy to look it up, if someone wants to put in the effort im sure it would be appreciated.
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Kazi1212 posted...

I dont know about the school shooters, but many other mass shooters were also guilty of domestic violence, and people who commit domestic violence generally were also brought up in abusive households:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2017/1/10/14213164/mass-shooters-gun-violence-domestic-violence

That data doesn't substantiate the claim that mass shooters come from abusive homes.

Kazi1212 posted...

I mean sure, intuitions can be wrong, I dont know about totally irrelevant however. if our intuitions were totally off from reality on a consistent basis, I doubt our intuition would be as critical to living our daily lives. In the absense of evidence, intuition is better than nothing.

Lol, no, that's not at all the case. It's much better in terms of decision making to admit you don't know the answer to a question than to form an arbitrary conclusion based on your subjective beliefs, since you're forced into acting based on what information you do know to be true. Intuition with no form of evidence is objectively worse than nothing.
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Frolex posted...

Intuition with no form of evidence is objectively worse than nothing.

There's no such thing tho. Intuition is created by picking up small bits of information and the like, it isn't a blind guess that relies on ESP like you're making it out to be. Intuition is objectively better than nothing.
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nicklebro posted...

There's no such thing tho. Intuition is created by picking up small bits of information and the like, it isn't a blind guess that relies on ESP like you're making it out to be. Intuition is objectively better than nothing.

"small bits of information" doesn't equate objective evidence or reliable data. do you think someone who "intuits" that global warming is a hoax because they live somewhere it snows is going to make more informed decisions on the subject than someone who just admits they don't understand enough about the subject?
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The government/police are either unwilling or unable to prevent them in general, so yes unfortunately.

Frolex posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

I dont know about the school shooters, but many other mass shooters were also guilty of domestic violence, and people who commit domestic violence generally were also brought up in abusive households:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2017/1/10/14213164/mass-shooters-gun-violence-domestic-violence

That data doesn't substantiate the claim that mass shooters come from abusive homes.

Kazi1212 posted...

I mean sure, intuitions can be wrong, I dont know about totally irrelevant however. if our intuitions were totally off from reality on a consistent basis, I doubt our intuition would be as critical to living our daily lives. In the absense of evidence, intuition is better than nothing.

Lol, no, that's not at all the case. It's much better in terms of decision making to admit you don't know the answer to a question than to form an arbitrary conclusion based on your subjective beliefs, since you're forced into acting based on what information you do know to be true. Intuition with no form of evidence is objectively worse than nothing.

1. Yes it doesnt substantiate any claims that mass shooters come from abusive homes, I didnt say it did. I merely said people who are guilty of domestic violence are also more likely to come from abusive households, which is a fact. Thus I made an assumption that its more probable these mass shooters also came abusive households given their domestic abuse background which the article does substantiate. Do you think my assumption is completely unreasonable? Sure it could be totally wrong, but like I said, Im too lazy to dig deep into the actual evidence, by all means go for it if you feel the need to prove something.

2. I already said I dont know the answer, Im just using my intuition. But where have I formed this arbitrary conclusion about the issue? Just because Im expressing how I intuitvely feel about an issue youre accusing me of that? I already said intuitions can be wrong, so obviously I dont think what my intuitions tell me is the cold hard reality pertaining to this specific issue, so Im really not sure what youre getting at. Can you clarify?

Also, theres tons of snap decisions we make on a daily basis that we make solely on intuition because we dont have the time to dig through tangible data to help make our decision for us, much of daily experience works this way is what I was getting at.
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Frolex posted...

nicklebro posted...

There's no such thing tho. Intuition is created by picking up small bits of information and the like, it isn't a blind guess that relies on ESP like you're making it out to be. Intuition is objectively better than nothing.

"small bits of information" doesn't equate objective evidence or reliable data. do you think someone who "intuits" that global warming is a hoax because they live somewhere it snows is going to make more informed decisions on the subject than someone who just admits they don't understand enough about the subject?

So now you're moving the goalposts. You said it was objectively worse than nothing. Lol and what you just posted isn't intuition at all. No one is saying intuition is just as good as conclusive data, but it's quite clearly going to be better than nothing on average.

You're acting as if people are choosing intuition over actual empirical data/conclusive evidence. Obviously that's just plain stupid. Intuition is closer to a guesstimate based on incomplete information. The fact that it is fallible doesn't make it worthless.
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nicklebro posted...

Frolex posted...

nicklebro posted...

There's no such thing tho. Intuition is created by picking up small bits of information and the like, it isn't a blind guess that relies on ESP like you're making it out to be. Intuition is objectively better than nothing.

"small bits of information" doesn't equate objective evidence or reliable data. do you think someone who "intuits" that global warming is a hoax because they live somewhere it snows is going to make more informed decisions on the subject than someone who just admits they don't understand enough about the subject?

So now you're moving the goalposts. You said it was objectively worse than nothing. Lol and what you just posted isn't intuition at all. No one is saying intuition is just as good as conclusive data, but it's quite clearly going to be better than nothing on average.

You're acting as if people are choosing intuition over actual empirical data/conclusive evidence. Obviously that's just plain stupid. Intuition is closer to a guesstimate based on incomplete information. The fact that it is fallible doesn't make it worthless.

I think he just has issues seeing words on the page that arent there, I dont know what else would explain why hes responding with a total strawman to your post.
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Kazi1212 posted...

I think he just has issues seeing words on the page that arent there, I dont know what else would explain why hes responding with a total strawman to your post.

Some people just get stuck and dig themselves into a hole and are too proud to admit it, or think that admitting they misspoke means that they're admitting their entire argument had been refuted.
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nicklebro posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

I think he just has issues seeing words on the page that arent there, I dont know what else would explain why hes responding with a total strawman to your post.

Some people just get stuck and dig themselves into a hole and are too proud to admit it, or think that admitting they misspoke means that they're admitting their entire argument had been refuted.

Good point.

On the other hand I hate it how someone can obviously misspeak or make on wrong point and all of a sudden people use it as an excuse to ignore the entire argument.
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Kazi1212 posted...

2. I already said I dont know the answer, Im just using my intuition. But where have I formed this arbitrary conclusion about the issue? Just because Im expressing how I intuitvely feel about an issue youre accusing me of that? I already said intuitions can be wrong, so obviously I dont think what my intuitions tell me is the cold hard reality pertaining to this specific issue, so Im really not sure what youre getting at. Can you clarify?

The point is that what a person intuits without evidence is ultimately irrelevant to the discussion, and the ultimate conclusion to a lack of evidence should be to do actual research on somehting.

Also, theres tons of snap decisions we make on a daily basis that we make solely on intuition because we dont have the time to dig through tangible data to help make our decision for us, much of daily experience works this way is what I was getting at.

And a lot of the decisions we make that aren't backed by any kind of data are ultimately arbitrary, not only in their outcome but their decision making process. Which isn't an issue in most cases, but when it starts influencing behavior or outcomes when it comes to nuanced, far-reaching socio-political issues, that's when it becomes a problem.

nicklebro posted...

So now you're moving the goalposts. You said it was objectively worse than nothing. Lol and what you just posted isn't intuition at all. No one is saying intuition is just as good as conclusive data, but it's quite clearly going to be better than nothing on average.

You're acting as if people are choosing intuition over actual empirical data/conclusive evidence. Obviously that's just plain stupid. Intuition is closer to a guesstimate based on incomplete information. The fact that it is fallible doesn't make it worthless.

Making a decisions based on the view that you don't have enough knowledge of a subject to make an informed conclusion is objectively better than intuiting a conclusion.
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Crepes posted...

nicklebro posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

I think he just has issues seeing words on the page that arent there, I dont know what else would explain why hes responding with a total strawman to your post.

Some people just get stuck and dig themselves into a hole and are too proud to admit it, or think that admitting they misspoke means that they're admitting their entire argument had been refuted.

Good point.

On the other hand I hate it how someone can obviously misspeak or make on wrong point and all of a sudden people use it as an excuse to ignore the entire argument.

If they admit they misspoke or made a wrong point then generally in my experience thats not the case. People are more willing to see the merits of another persons points when they see the other person being honest in trying to have an actual discussion by admitting when theyre wrong rather than just wanting to win an argument.
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Kazi1212 posted...

Crepes posted...

nicklebro posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

I think he just has issues seeing words on the page that arent there, I dont know what else would explain why hes responding with a total strawman to your post.

Some people just get stuck and dig themselves into a hole and are too proud to admit it, or think that admitting they misspoke means that they're admitting their entire argument had been refuted.

Good point.

On the other hand I hate it how someone can obviously misspeak or make on wrong point and all of a sudden people use it as an excuse to ignore the entire argument.

If they admit they misspoke or made a wrong point then generally in my experience thats not the case. People are more willing to see the merits of another persons points when they see the other person being honest in trying to have an actual discussion by admitting when theyre wrong rather than just wanting to win an argument.

That's not my experience. Especially not on here but I respect your opinion.
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Frolex posted...

Making a decisions based on the view that you don't have enough knowledge of a subject to make an informed conclusion is objectively better than intuiting a conclusion.

So you're saying it's never ok to make a decision unless you know every relevant fact? Lol do you not understand when and why people use intuition? Jesus man.... I mean this is common sense stuff that everyone in the world understands you included, but you're just gonna keep arguing for the sake of arguing aren't you?

Lol how's about this. You've made the decision that it's never ok to use intuition. Butittle did you know that you were basing that on your own intuition since you have absolutely no way of knowing all of the facts In order to make that an objective true statement. You're using incomplete data to make the determination that one should never have incompetence data to make a determination.

So since your opinion is worthless, why don't we each find some sources to back up our arguments?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080305144210.htm

https://nypost.com/2017/06/16/science-confirms-womens-intuition-is-a-real-thing/

http://time.com/4721715/phenomena-annie-jacobsen/

Do you need more than that?
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Crepes posted...

That's not my experience. Especially not on here but I respect your opinion.

Usually the only people who do that are posters like Frolex who refuse to ever admitna mistake.
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