Current Events > Toddler dies as hospital and courts refused treatment options

(+) Yeah! (+)

Alfies parents are not asking the NHS to do or spend more. They just want permission to take their son abroad. Since December, when Alder Hey first decided to end Alfies ventilator support, they have been fighting legal battles to transfer him to an Italian hospital which is prepared to keep him alive a little longer.
---

---

Alfies parents should want to transfer him there if only to deliver him, and themselves, from their now-poisoned entanglement with Alder Hey. Moreover, their relationship with Bambino Ges sounds simpatico
---

Hinakuluiau posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

Are people really this incapable of imagining that I could disagree with them on this?

It's just that your disagreement is based on incorrect information. You have been explained to repeatedly in this topic about why you're wrong.
At this point it's akin to someone saying "well I just think 2+2=5 and that's my opinion."

---

Here is an article referencing a polish doctor who disagrees with the prognosis and claims he was misdiagnosed:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alfie-evans-is-not-dying-or-brain-dead-hes-been-misdiagnosed-polish-docto

Dr. Izabela Pagan, a pediatrician and childrens oncologist from Bydgoszcz in Poland, told Radio Wnet April 25 that in her professional opinion, doctors at Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool where Alfie is being kept are misdiagnosing the boy.

Doctors at the hospital in Liverpool asked the court to agree to the separation of the infant from life-support, on the grounds that it would be in the 'best interests' of the child. The infant is not a dying child. He is not brain-dead, she said, as reported by Polish news portal Fronda.pl.

Pagan said that Alfies brain scans do not show that he is in a terminal state. They do not, for example, show the state of his brain stem, she said.

The child reacts to the voice of his father, he periodically opens his eyes, he tightens his mouth around his soother. The parents insist that he is making contact with them, she added.

Videos taken by the family and posted to Facebook show the toddler yawning, making eye contact, responding to voice, sucking his dummy.

Dr. Pagan claims to have examined Alfie in Britain some time ago at the request of Alfies parents. They had asked for second opinions.

A court order had Alfie removed from his ventilator on April 23 just after 9:00 PM. He defied everyones expectations by breathing on his own. He has now been breathing on his own for over 60 hours.

---

solosnake posted...

Confronted with divergent expert medical opinions, does not the patient or, as in this case, his proxy have the right to decide between them?

Yes. There wasn't divergent expert medical opinions in this case. If you wish to discuss such hypotheticals, you should make a new topic about it.

For fucks sake
---

Funbazooka posted...

holy fuck
---

JE19426 posted...

s. There wasn't divergent expert medical opinions in this case. If

literally just posted a diveregent medical opinion, maybe you should do some reasearch before claiming things you have no idea about?
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Funbazooka posted...

holy fuck

They're obviously looking for threats to the hospital or doctors, but you do you.
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

holy fuck

afaik they were referring to people threatening to do harm towards the hospital and employees
not people upset with what happened

for context, some protesters blocked an ambulance from entering the hospital the last time they were displeased with the doctor's opinions on Alfie
---

Seems people in the US are Moreno upset about this than people in the UK. Get your own house in order first please.
---

solosnake posted...

literally just posted a diveregent medical opinion

Nope, you posted a link to a shitrag, they aren't the same.

maybe you should do some reasearch before claiming things you have no idea about?

You should use your brain before believing shitrags. If Dr. Izabela Pagan actually examined Alfie on the parents behalf why didn't they use Dr. Izabela Pagan's diagnoses in their court battle?

Another thing that hasn't been talked about much is that the doctors were not correct about the breathing. I don't know why people are convinced they are so infallible if that is the case. I don't blame any parent for wanting to keep seeking care for their toddler after something like that happens.
---

Here is a group of UK Doctors who supported Alfie's right to medical care and condemned Alder Hey for their medical tyrany

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/uk-doctors-group-supports-alfie-evans-condemn-hospitals-medical-tyranny

This isnt as clear cut of an issue as some of you guys make it seem
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Funbazooka posted...

holy fuck

People were issuing death threats, and trying to break into the hospital, assault staff and stop ambulances from getting in.

That's the kind of degenerate filth they are looking out for.
---

solosnake posted...

Here is a group of UK Doctors who supported Alfie's right to medical care and condemned Alder Hey for their medical tyrany

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/uk-doctors-group-supports-alfie-evans-condemn-hospitals-medical-tyranny

This isnt as clear cut of an issue as some of you guys make it seem

Religious nutcases inserting their religion into the ethics of keeping a child alive because they refuse to consider the possibility of letting someone die deserve no attention.
---

shockthemonkey posted...

solosnake posted...

Here is an article referencing a polish doctor who disagrees with the prognosis and claims he was misdiagnosed:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alfie-evans-is-not-dying-or-brain-dead-hes-been-misdiagnosed-polish-docto

Dr. Izabela Pagan, a pediatrician and childrens oncologist from Bydgoszcz in Poland, told Radio Wnet April 25 that in her professional opinion, doctors at Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool where Alfie is being kept are misdiagnosing the boy.

Doctors at the hospital in Liverpool asked the court to agree to the separation of the infant from life-support, on the grounds that it would be in the 'best interests' of the child. The infant is not a dying child. He is not brain-dead, she said, as reported by Polish news portal Fronda.pl.

Pagan said that Alfies brain scans do not show that he is in a terminal state. They do not, for example, show the state of his brain stem, she said.

The child reacts to the voice of his father, he periodically opens his eyes, he tightens his mouth around his soother. The parents insist that he is making contact with them, she added.

Videos taken by the family and posted to Facebook show the toddler yawning, making eye contact, responding to voice, sucking his dummy.

Dr. Pagan claims to have examined Alfie in Britain some time ago at the request of Alfies parents. They had asked for second opinions.

A court order had Alfie removed from his ventilator on April 23 just after 9:00 PM. He defied everyones expectations by breathing on his own. He has now been breathing on his own for over 60 hours.

That link doesnt work. And how come the parents werent trying to bring their child to this doctor if this one could save him?

They literally werent allowed to
---

Funkydog posted...

solosnake posted...

Here is a group of UK Doctors who supported Alfie's right to medical care and condemned Alder Hey for their medical tyrany

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/uk-doctors-group-supports-alfie-evans-condemn-hospitals-medical-tyranny

This isnt as clear cut of an issue as some of you guys make it seem

Religious nutcases inserting their religion into the ethics of keeping a child alive because they refuse to consider the possibility of letting someone die deserve no attention.

What? those are real UK doctors, not "relgious nuts" they feel this reflects badly on their profession as whole. Did you even read the article?
---

>2018
>linking to Life Site News

Lmfao
---

shockthemonkey posted...

solosnake posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

solosnake posted...

Here is an article referencing a polish doctor who disagrees with the prognosis and claims he was misdiagnosed:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alfie-evans-is-not-dying-or-brain-dead-hes-been-misdiagnosed-polish-docto

Dr. Izabela Pagan, a pediatrician and childrens oncologist from Bydgoszcz in Poland, told Radio Wnet April 25 that in her professional opinion, doctors at Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool where Alfie is being kept are misdiagnosing the boy.

Doctors at the hospital in Liverpool asked the court to agree to the separation of the infant from life-support, on the grounds that it would be in the 'best interests' of the child. The infant is not a dying child. He is not brain-dead, she said, as reported by Polish news portal Fronda.pl.

Pagan said that Alfies brain scans do not show that he is in a terminal state. They do not, for example, show the state of his brain stem, she said.

The child reacts to the voice of his father, he periodically opens his eyes, he tightens his mouth around his soother. The parents insist that he is making contact with them, she added.

Videos taken by the family and posted to Facebook show the toddler yawning, making eye contact, responding to voice, sucking his dummy.

Dr. Pagan claims to have examined Alfie in Britain some time ago at the request of Alfies parents. They had asked for second opinions.

A court order had Alfie removed from his ventilator on April 23 just after 9:00 PM. He defied everyones expectations by breathing on his own. He has now been breathing on his own for over 60 hours.

That link doesnt work. And how come the parents werent trying to bring their child to this doctor if this one could save him?

They literally werent allowed to

So they were allowed to try to bring him to Italy but not to Poland? Can you stop being so disingenuous for one fucking second?

They werent even allowed to take their child home, let alone itally or poland
---

If they were paying for who says they cant exhaust all options?
---

shockthemonkey posted...

solosnake posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

solosnake posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

solosnake posted...

Here is an article referencing a polish doctor who disagrees with the prognosis and claims he was misdiagnosed:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alfie-evans-is-not-dying-or-brain-dead-hes-been-misdiagnosed-polish-docto

Dr. Izabela Pagan, a pediatrician and childrens oncologist from Bydgoszcz in Poland, told Radio Wnet April 25 that in her professional opinion, doctors at Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool where Alfie is being kept are misdiagnosing the boy.

Doctors at the hospital in Liverpool asked the court to agree to the separation of the infant from life-support, on the grounds that it would be in the 'best interests' of the child. The infant is not a dying child. He is not brain-dead, she said, as reported by Polish news portal Fronda.pl.

Pagan said that Alfies brain scans do not show that he is in a terminal state. They do not, for example, show the state of his brain stem, she said.

The child reacts to the voice of his father, he periodically opens his eyes, he tightens his mouth around his soother. The parents insist that he is making contact with them, she added.

Videos taken by the family and posted to Facebook show the toddler yawning, making eye contact, responding to voice, sucking his dummy.

Dr. Pagan claims to have examined Alfie in Britain some time ago at the request of Alfies parents. They had asked for second opinions.

A court order had Alfie removed from his ventilator on April 23 just after 9:00 PM. He defied everyones expectations by breathing on his own. He has now been breathing on his own for over 60 hours.

That link doesnt work. And how come the parents werent trying to bring their child to this doctor if this one could save him?

They literally werent allowed to

So they were allowed to try to bring him to Italy but not to Poland? Can you stop being so disingenuous for one fucking second?

They werent even allowed to take their child home, let alone itally or poland

So you cant stop being disingenuous for a second. Got it.

Stop trolling in favor of child abuse.

How am I trolling? Those are the facts.
---

Sativa_Rose posted...

Another thing that hasn't been talked about much is that the doctors were not correct about the breathing.

No they weren't.

solosnake posted...

Here is a group of UK Doctors who supported Alfie's right to medical care and condemned Alder Hey for their medical tyrany

Not one of those Doctors claim to have examined Alfie so I don't see why there opinion should matter.

They literally werent allowed to

They didn't try to bring Alfie to him. They tried to take Alfie to Italy. If this Polish doctor could save Alfie but Italians couldn't why would the parents try to take him to Italy and not Poland.

What? those are real UK doctors, not "relgious nuts"

You say that as if being a Doctor and religious but is mutually exclusive. They aren't.

solosnake posted...

What? those are real UK doctors, not "relgious nuts" they feel this reflects badly on their profession as whole. Did you even read the article?

The group are using religion as their reason for why it shouldn't be done and nothing else. They inject religion into their healthcare and are deserving of being called religious nutcases as a result.
---

Hopefully Alfie's death can lead to reforming the law and her death is not in vain. Seems like there is real movement to get something done:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/alfie-evans-case-steven-woolfe-law-change-needed-opinion-a8326041.html

Alfies Law would introduce a number of important safeguards that would redress the balance. First, it would introduce independence into a one-sided system. What parents need right now is someone on their side to help and support them through the court process. By selecting an impartial advocate from a panel to act on their behalf, the parents would have someone on their side from the very beginning.

Secondly, under Alfies Law, parents and carers would be given the right to commensurate legal funding when appealing the decision of a hospital over the care of their child. For the parents, appeals are not only enormously stressful, they are incredibly costly too. In Alfies case, while the NHS has been able to command large legal budgets to fight the parents' request for alternative treatment, Alfie's parents have been left to fend for themselves, often representing themselves in court or relying on pro-bono support.

The inability to raise the necessary funding has a profound effect. In some cases it might mean that parents, desperate though they are, just cannot afford to continue their fight, and they will forever see the death of their child as a reflection of their lack of money. This is a heartbreaking situation.

Finally, Alfies Law would give the right for a second opinion from a parent-chosen healthcare professional who is independent of the NHS, and would force the courts to give this medical opinion equal weight. This is a key factor in many cases. The vast weight of medical evidence delivered by one set of professionals can become a rolling stone, trampling over opinions from all other experts. There is a danger, also, that once the hospital decides on a certain course of action, they get tunnel vision; they become closed to all other arguments or evidence.

In Alfies case, many feel that the NHS has closed ranks, and that groupthink within the organisation has meant that doctors cannot question their colleagues' assessments. We cannot let this continue.

Its time for Alfies Law. No one wants to witness any more parents going through what Tom and Kate have been through. The government has the power to act, and it must do so.

---

solosnake posted...

Hopefully Alfie's death can lead to reforming the law and her death is not in vain. Seems like there is real movement to get something done:

Alfie is a boy
which you'd know if you had researched the case instead of trolling
---

JE19426 posted...

Not one of those Doctors claim to have examined Alfie so I don't see why there opinion should matter.

Well the doctors can't examine him if the parents aren't allowed to move him.
---

solosnake posted...

Hopefully Alfie's death can lead to reforming the law and her death is not in vain.

Holy shit you don't even know Alfie's gender. Like wtf kind of research did you do? You found all those shitrag articles but not Alfie's gender.

I made a grammatical error. I find it ridiculous that all you can resort to is hurling insults. There is no trolling being done here.
---

Y'all gettin trolled
---

Way to completely ignore the issue and flame me instead
---

Sativa_Rose posted...

Well the doctors can't examine him if the parents aren't allowed to move him.

That's not true at all, multiple doctors examined Alfie. If Doctors couldn't examine Alfie, where were medical opinions supposed to have come from? A magic 8-ball?

So no thoughts on Alfie's Law? Everyone would rather just flame each other and accuse each other of trolling?

Alfies Law would introduce a number of important safeguards that would redress the balance. First, it would introduce independence into a one-sided system. What parents need right now is someone on their side to help and support them through the court process. By selecting an impartial advocate from a panel to act on their behalf, the parents would have someone on their side from the very beginning.

Secondly, under Alfies Law, parents and carers would be given the right to commensurate legal funding when appealing the decision of a hospital over the care of their child. For the parents, appeals are not only enormously stressful, they are incredibly costly too. In Alfies case, while the NHS has been able to command large legal budgets to fight the parents' request for alternative treatment, Alfie's parents have been left to fend for themselves, often representing themselves in court or relying on pro-bono support.

The inability to raise the necessary funding has a profound effect. In some cases it might mean that parents, desperate though they are, just cannot afford to continue their fight, and they will forever see the death of their child as a reflection of their lack of money. This is a heartbreaking situation.

Finally, Alfies Law would give the right for a second opinion from a parent-chosen healthcare professional who is independent of the NHS, and would force the courts to give this medical opinion equal weight. This is a key factor in many cases. The vast weight of medical evidence delivered by one set of professionals can become a rolling stone, trampling over opinions from all other experts. There is a danger, also, that once the hospital decides on a certain course of action, they get tunnel vision; they become closed to all other arguments or evidence.

In Alfies case, many feel that the NHS has closed ranks, and that groupthink within the organisation has meant that doctors cannot question their colleagues' assessments. We cannot let this continue.

Its time for Alfies Law. No one wants to witness any more parents going through what Tom and Kate have been through. The government has the power to act, and it must do so.

---

Well I guess thats a no from Unholycrab
---

Also, I know you guys dont really care and would rather assume anyone that disagrees with you is trolling, but I was looking at an article that referred to Alfie as a male, and to be fair its not a hard mistake to make as that name is not gender specific.

But oh ho!!!! you didnt know the gender, you are just trolling, DURTRRRRRR

****ing gfaqs lol
---

shockthemonkey posted...

lmao tc has done no research but is sure he knows whats best

You are the one that didnt even know they werent allowed to take their child out of the hospital
---

shockthemonkey posted...

Guys Im not trolling, Im just a big fan of abusing children! is not a good look.

You are ****ing pathetic. Where has anyone here advocated the abuse of children, you call me a troll yet you have been doing nothing but trolling and flaming since you came in this topic
---

solosnake posted...

and to be fair its not a hard mistake to make as that name is not gender specific.

It's in the top 20 boy names in the UK for several years now, literally short for Alfred
I assume you must not be from the UK because of this, in which case that explains why you jumped on the bandwagon of ignorance surrounding the case
---