Current Events > The Brexiter Psychology is fascinating

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Shuto-uke 04/02/18 4:55:29 PM #1:	https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-is-a-collective-english-mental-breakdown-1.3356258 "The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England, and that Europhobia was the outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity. England sank its identity in the unions with Scotland, in 1707, and with Ireland, in 1800, which gave rise respectively to Britain and to the United Kingdom." "From then on the English had no need of a separate identity, for as metropolitans of Britain, of the United Kingdom and eventually of the British empire they dealt with no one on equal terms. They were masters of the seas, they could travel around the world without setting foot outside imperial territory, and economically the empire was, potentially at least, self-sufficient." So that is who they (Brexit voters) see themselves as - imperial overlords. But then that came to an end, but they didn't want to accept it: "The dismantling by the United States of the British empire, after its finest hour in 1940, was a traumatic blow to the psyche of two English generations, from which they have never recovered, largely because they have never recognised it." So they had to come to terms with the fact that they're just "a" country, not "the" country: The end of empire meant the end of the English pretension to have and need no national identity of their own. Once they admitted their empire was no more, the English would have to become just another nation like everybody else, with a specific, limited identity, a specific history, neither specially honourable nor specially dishonourable, with limited weight, limited resources, and limited importance in the world, and on the Atlantic archipelago. That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people." <cite>Shuto-uke posted [p:898938565] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote>https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-is-a-collective-english-mental-breakdown-1.3356258 "The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England, and that Europhobia was the outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity. England sank its identity in the unions with Scotland, in 1707, and with Ireland, in 1800, which gave rise respectively to Britain and to the United Kingdom." "From then on the English had no need of a separate identity, for as metropolitans of Britain, of the United Kingdom and eventually of the British empire they dealt with no one on equal terms. They were masters of the seas, they could travel around the world without setting foot outside imperial territory, and economically the empire was, potentially at least, self-sufficient." So that is who they (Brexit voters) see themselves as - imperial overlords. But then that came to an end, but they didn't want to accept it: "The dismantling by the United States of the British empire, after its finest hour in 1940, was a traumatic blow to the psyche of two English generations, from which they have never recovered, largely because they have never recognised it." So they had to come to terms with the fact that they're just "a" country, not "the" country: The end of empire meant the end of the English pretension to have and need no national identity of their own. Once they admitted their empire was no more, the English would have to become just another nation like everybody else, with a specific, limited identity, a specific history, neither specially honourable nor specially dishonourable, with limited weight, limited resources, and limited importance in the world, and on the Atlantic archipelago. That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people."</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Shuto-uke 04/02/18 5:02:21 PM #2:	So what's next? In the mind of the deluded brexit voter, "Empire 2.0" : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/31/brexit-and-britains-delusions-of-empire/ "But Brexit proponents have also projected a nostalgic vision of Britain once more asserting itself as a dominant player on the world stage. May trumpeted the dawn of a new Global Britain earlier this year: a nation shorn of its continental commitments and capable of finding a new accommodation with other parts of the world especially those it once colonized." "Earlier this month, it emerged that Mays government is seeking to boost trade links to many of the nations of the Commonwealth particularly in Africa in a move labeled by some anonymous government officials as Empire 2.0." However, this idea that they can simply tell their former colonies (Commonwealth) to jump and they'll respond "how high?" is misguided: "The reality is that many Commonwealth nations simply dont need Britain. Australian exports to its former colonial ruler amounted to just 1.4 percent of its total outgoing trade. Canada, which shares a huge land border with the United States, will always look south, not east. India, once the jewel in Britains imperial crown, has an economy already roughly the same size as Britains; Indian moguls now own some of Britains most iconic companies. In anglophone Africa, the game is already up, British historian David Olusoga noted in the Guardian. The motorbikes on the freeways of Accra and Lagos are Chinese, assembled by local mechanics from kits shipped direct from Shandong. West Africas new convenience food is Chinese instant noodles, not fish and chips, and the supermarkets that sell them are South African-owned What is the takeaway? brexit was simply nostalgia for their imperial past: Brexit is rooted in imperial nostalgia and myths of British exceptionalism, coming up as they have especially since 2008 against the reality that Britain is no longer a major world power, British academic Tom Whyman wrote in a withering column. Those most under the spell of imperial nostalgia have now become the sorcerers themselves, having somehow managed to conjure up a mandate to transform Britain in their image. I find it especially ironic since they will now need to beg to some other (true) world power to make them their b** because they can't go it alone. The Russian poison attack was a real eye opener, they suddenly began talking about "an attack on europe" <cite>Shuto-uke posted [p:898938881] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote>So what's next? In the mind of the deluded brexit voter, "Empire 2.0" : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/31/brexit-and-britains-delusions-of-empire/ "But Brexit proponents have also projected a nostalgic vision of Britain once more asserting itself as a dominant player on the world stage. May trumpeted the dawn of a new Global Britain earlier this year: a nation shorn of its continental commitments and capable of finding a new accommodation with other parts of the world especially those it once colonized." "Earlier this month, it emerged that Mays government is seeking to boost trade links to many of the nations of the Commonwealth particularly in Africa in a move labeled by some anonymous government officials as Empire 2.0." However, this idea that they can simply tell their former colonies (Commonwealth) to jump and they'll respond "how high?" is misguided: "The reality is that many Commonwealth nations simply dont need Britain. Australian exports to its former colonial ruler amounted to just 1.4 percent of its total outgoing trade. Canada, which shares a huge land border with the United States, will always look south, not east. India, once the jewel in Britains imperial crown, has an economy already roughly the same size as Britains; Indian moguls now own some of Britains most iconic companies. In anglophone Africa, the game is already up, British historian David Olusoga noted in the Guardian. The motorbikes on the freeways of Accra and Lagos are Chinese, assembled by local mechanics from kits shipped direct from Shandong. West Africas new convenience food is Chinese instant noodles, not fish and chips, and the supermarkets that sell them are South African-owned What is the takeaway? brexit was simply nostalgia for their imperial past: Brexit is rooted in imperial nostalgia and myths of British exceptionalism, coming up as they have especially since 2008 against the reality that Britain is no longer a major world power, British academic Tom Whyman wrote in a withering column. Those most under the spell of imperial nostalgia have now become the sorcerers themselves, having somehow managed to conjure up a mandate to transform Britain in their image. I find it especially ironic since they will now need to beg to some other (true) world power to make them their b** because they can't go it alone. The Russian poison attack was a real eye opener, they suddenly began talking about "an attack on europe"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 04/02/18 5:06:01 PM #3:	Shuto-uke posted... That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people." Could be that. But it could also be that they have what they see as a unique culture that they want to preserve. No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:898939043] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>Shuto-uke posted...</cite> <quote>That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people."</quote> Could be that. But it could also be that they have what they see as a unique culture that they want to preserve. No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
StanZarnack 04/02/18 5:16:17 PM #4:	Shuto-uke posted... "The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England, and that Europhobia was the outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity. In other words, they're scared of people who look slightly different. Brexit is a scam and a travesty. --- Common sense is not so common. <cite>StanZarnack posted [p:898939578] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>Shuto-uke posted...</cite> <quote>"The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England, and that Europhobia was the outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity. </quote> In other words, they're scared of people who look slightly different. Brexit is a scam and a travesty.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DarkChozoGhost 04/02/18 5:19:39 PM #5:	The Admiral posted... No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. When "heritage and values" is actually just code for "people of other races," and not actually something tangible, then yes it's a bad thing. --- My sister's dog bit a hole in my Super Mario Land cartridge. It still works though - Skye Reynolds 3DS FC: 3239-5612-0115 <cite>DarkChozoGhost posted [p:898939772] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> When "heritage and values" is actually just code for "people of other races," and not actually something tangible, then yes it's a bad thing.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:20:37 PM #6:	Rookie User User Since: Dec 2017 Karma: 22 Active Posts: 89 Total Badges: 3 --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898939821] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote>Rookie User User Since: Dec 2017 Karma: 22 Active Posts: 89 Total Badges: 3</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 04/02/18 5:21:02 PM #7:	DarkChozoGhost posted... The Admiral posted... No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. When "heritage and values" is actually just code for "people of other races," and not actually something tangible, then yes it's a bad thing. Why do you assume it's code when those "people of other races" have an established history of not integrating and trying to push their own culture when they enter the UK? --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:898939843] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>DarkChozoGhost posted...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> When "heritage and values" is actually just code for "people of other races," and not actually something tangible, then yes it's a bad thing.</quote> Why do you assume it's code when those "people of other races" have an established history of not integrating and trying to push their own culture when they enter the UK?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DarkChozoGhost 04/02/18 5:22:50 PM #8:	The Admiral posted... Why do you assume it's code Because it is. It's not just about muslims, they also treat Indians and Poles like garbage as well. --- My sister's dog bit a hole in my Super Mario Land cartridge. It still works though - Skye Reynolds 3DS FC: 3239-5612-0115 <cite>DarkChozoGhost posted [p:898939939] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>Why do you assume it's code</quote> Because it is. It's not just about muslims, they also treat Indians and Poles like garbage as well.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 04/02/18 5:23:28 PM #9:	DarkChozoGhost posted... The Admiral posted... Why do you assume it's code Because it is. It's not just about muslims, they also treat Indians and Poles like garbage as well. Poles are the same racial group, so that undercuts your racism narrative. --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:898939981] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>DarkChozoGhost posted...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>Why do you assume it's code</quote> Because it is. It's not just about muslims, they also treat Indians and Poles like garbage as well.</quote> Poles are the same racial group, so that undercuts your racism narrative.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Doe 04/02/18 5:24:13 PM #10:	Unbiased source --- https://i.imgur.com/IYZ3NIM.jpg https://i.imgur.com/i2U0ahc.png <cite>Doe posted [p:898940023] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote>Unbiased source</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DarkChozoGhost 04/02/18 5:24:26 PM #11:	The Admiral posted... Poles are the same racial group, The people that voted for brexit don't see it that way. --- My sister's dog bit a hole in my Super Mario Land cartridge. It still works though - Skye Reynolds 3DS FC: 3239-5612-0115 <cite>DarkChozoGhost posted [p:898940033] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>Poles are the same racial group,</quote> The people that voted for brexit don't see it that way.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Metro2 04/02/18 5:24:40 PM #12:	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XYBIUGJvzs" data-time=" <cite>Metro2 posted [p:898940045] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XYBIUGJvzs" data-time="</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 5:26:13 PM #13:	The Admiral posted... No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. The UK's proposed rights and the EU rights are pretty much identical apart from the fact the UK is much much much much much looser on Government spying on the public being ok And whether the UK is part of the EU doesn't really have much to do with heritage. It's mostly about legal and trade-agreements. All of which the UK helped draft and create and the majority of which the UK will still have to abide by even if it leaves, it just will no longer be part of creating them. Honestly I think saying things like "IT's about heritage and values" is still just appealing to emotion rather than having a strong point. People saying things like "If the UK had a Canada-style trade agreement with the EU they would make more money than they do now for the same trade" actually have an argument but they seem few and far between against "Take the UK back! Those evil foreigners will not rule us!" chest-thumping that is loud but doesn't seem to actually mean anything. The Admiral posted... Why do you assume it's code when those "people of other races" have an established history of not integrating and trying to push their own culture when they enter the UK? Again, leaving the EU does not mean the UK will no longer accept immigrants. If anything it might mean it accepts more. Sure the EU allowed free passage between nations but the UK's immigration problem was not French and German students going to Leeds Uni. It was refugees and poles coming in and taking jobs. Neither of which are really going to be affected by the EU. I don't blame you for being fooled however as the Brexit campaigners made it about immigration to get votes and tricked a lot of people. It was a greatly successful if dishonest campaign For some reason the Remain campaign fell for this too and also made it about immigration, calling UKIP and Leavers Racist. But really if you think being in the EU or not is about immigration then you've at best been tricked and at worst don't know what the EU is. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898940120] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote> No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> The UK's proposed rights and the EU rights are pretty much identical apart from the fact the UK is much much much much much looser on Government spying on the public being ok And whether the UK is part of the EU doesn't really have much to do with heritage. It's mostly about legal and trade-agreements. All of which the UK helped draft and create and the majority of which the UK will still have to abide by even if it leaves, it just will no longer be part of creating them. Honestly I think saying things like "IT's about heritage and values" is still just appealing to emotion rather than having a strong point. People saying things like "If the UK had a Canada-style trade agreement with the EU they would make more money than they do now for the same trade" actually have an argument but they seem few and far between against "Take the UK back! Those evil foreigners will not rule us!" chest-thumping that is loud but doesn't seem to actually mean anything. <cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote> Why do you assume it's code when those "people of other races" have an established history of not integrating and trying to push their own culture when they enter the UK?</quote> Again, leaving the EU does not mean the UK will no longer accept immigrants. If anything it might mean it accepts more. Sure the EU allowed free passage between nations but the UK's immigration problem was not French and German students going to Leeds Uni. It was refugees and poles coming in and taking jobs. Neither of which are really going to be affected by the EU. I don't blame you for being fooled however as the Brexit campaigners made it about immigration to get votes and tricked a lot of people. It was a greatly successful if dishonest campaign For some reason the Remain campaign fell for this too and also made it about immigration, calling UKIP and Leavers Racist. But really if you think being in the EU or not is about immigration then you've at best been tricked and at worst don't know what the EU is.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 5:31:22 PM #14:	The Admiral posted... No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. What heritage and values are they trying to preserve by leaving the EU. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898940402] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. </quote> What heritage and values are they trying to preserve by leaving the EU.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Howl 04/02/18 5:31:29 PM #15:	The Admiral posted... Shuto-uke posted... That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people." Could be that. But it could also be that they have what they see as a unique culture that they want to preserve. No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. Of course that message only applies to countries that were hostorically predominantly white. Any other country that has people of other races can rightfully preserve their culture and if any white person attempts to make any use of that culture they are derided as being culturally appropriating. --- Posted with GameRaven 3.3 <cite>Howl posted [p:898940409] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Shuto-uke posted...</cite> <quote> That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people."</quote> Could be that. But it could also be that they have what they see as a unique culture that they want to preserve. No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> Of course that message only applies to countries that were hostorically predominantly white. Any other country that has people of other races can rightfully preserve their culture and if any white person attempts to make any use of that culture they are derided as being culturally appropriating.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:32:14 PM #16:	JE19426 posted... The Admiral posted... No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. What heritage and values are they trying to preserve by leaving the EU. How about the right to fish off their own waters? --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898940451] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. </quote> What heritage and values are they trying to preserve by leaving the EU.</quote> How about the right to fish off their own waters?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 5:34:11 PM #17:	Howl posted... Of course that message only applies to countries that were hostorically predominantly white. Any other country that has people of other races can rightfully preserve their culture and if any white person attempts to make any use of that culture they are derided as being culturally appropriating. I don't understand what heritage and culture and values you feel the UK lost by being part of the EU... Or is going to gain by leaving. These are just emotional buzzwords. Actually make a coherant point or else you're just becoming examples of TC's point. You remind me of when people defend homophobia by saying things like "Gay sex is destroying the fabric and cohesion of the soul of society." --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898940555] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>Howl posted...</cite> <quote> Of course that message only applies to countries that were hostorically predominantly white. Any other country that has people of other races can rightfully preserve their culture and if any white person attempts to make any use of that culture they are derided as being culturally appropriating.</quote> I don't understand what heritage and culture and values you feel the UK lost by being part of the EU... Or is going to gain by leaving. These are just emotional buzzwords. Actually make a coherant point or else you're just becoming examples of TC's point. You remind me of when people defend homophobia by saying things like "Gay sex is destroying the fabric and cohesion of the soul of society."</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 5:34:20 PM #18:	s0nicfan posted... How about the right to fish off their own waters? They have that right in the EU. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898940565] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>How about the right to fish off their own waters? </quote> They have that right in the EU.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 04/02/18 5:35:25 PM #19:	UnfairRepresent posted... Again, leaving the EU does not mean the UK will no longer accept immigrants. If anything it might mean it accepts more. Part of Brexit is that it will end the current policy that allows EU citizens to live and work in the UK without a visa. So yes, it very much does have a cultural aspect that you might not be aware of. --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:898940621] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>Again, leaving the EU does not mean the UK will no longer accept immigrants. If anything it might mean it accepts more.</quote> Part of Brexit is that it will end the current policy that allows EU citizens to live and work in the UK without a visa. So yes, it very much does have a cultural aspect that you might not be aware of.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:35:37 PM #20:	JE19426 posted... s0nicfan posted... How about the right to fish off their own waters? They have that right in the EU. Nope. The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots. The UK lost sovereignty over parts of their own waters by being in the EU. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898940637] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>How about the right to fish off their own waters? </quote> They have that right in the EU.</quote> Nope. The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots. The UK lost sovereignty over parts of their own waters by being in the EU.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 5:37:56 PM #21:	s0nicfan posted... Nope. Wrong. The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots. You have no idea talking about you are talking about. The Common Fisheries Policy doesn't limit where people can fish. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898940739] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Nope. </quote> Wrong. <quote>The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots.</quote> You have no idea talking about you are talking about. The Common Fisheries Policy doesn't limit where people can fish.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:38:40 PM #22:	JE19426 posted... s0nicfan posted... Nope. Wrong. The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots. You have no idea talking about you are talking about. The Common Fisheries Policy doesn't limit where people can fish. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermens Organisations, said he understood why the EU would start negotiations with a hard line but that he believed there would be radical changes for the industry. He said: I understand where they are coming from. Its quite a hard line to go into a negotiation and we are waiting to see what the UKs position is. But the reality is that there is a huge imbalance in terms of other member states fishing in UK water. Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898940776] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Nope. </quote> Wrong. <quote>The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots.</quote> You have no idea talking about you are talking about. The Common Fisheries Policy doesn't limit where people can fish.</quote> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals <quote>Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermens Organisations, said he understood why the EU would start negotiations with a hard line but that he believed there would be radical changes for the industry. He said: I understand where they are coming from. Its quite a hard line to go into a negotiation and we are waiting to see what the UKs position is. But the reality is that there is a huge imbalance in terms of other member states fishing in UK water. Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 04/02/18 5:40:11 PM #23:	Could have told you this without an article. The arrogance of some of these people is astonishing. They still think we're an empire. We're a tiny nation of fucking shopkeepers and academics. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. http://i.imgur.com/ILz2ZbV.jpg <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:898940881] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote>Could have told you this without an article. The arrogance of some of these people is astonishing. They still think we're an empire. We're a tiny nation of fucking shopkeepers and academics.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 5:40:47 PM #24:	The Admiral posted... Part of Brexit is that it will end the current policy that allows EU citizens to live and work in the UK without a visa. So yes, it very much does have a cultural aspect that you might not be aware of. Not really. Because that's not the immigration issue that the UK is struggling with. In fact I actually mentioned it in the post and you ignored it along with every other point raised. But I didn't realize it was you so I see why now. The refugee crisis won't go away outside of the EU, the Poles and Bulgarians are already there. People bringing their families in will continue to happen and people wanting to immgirate will still happen. People offering cheap labor will still hire foreign workers. The UK's immigration problems were not and never have been caused by the free EU passage. That was mainly an advantage for students. And the solutions to fighting those issues, still have no real effect on the EU. Things like discouraging house-shares from letting multiple foreigners live there. s0nicfan posted... JE19426 posted... s0nicfan posted... How about the right to fish off their own waters? They have that right in the EU. Nope. The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots. The UK lost sovereignty over parts of their own waters by being in the EU. This is a very valid point but I wouldn't call it a right or a culture. It's a law and trade agreement dispute. No one can actually point out what culture, right or heritage means here beyond "It's inspiring emotional wording with no meat behind it." which was TC's point about the emotion. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898940917] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote> Part of Brexit is that it will end the current policy that allows EU citizens to live and work in the UK without a visa. So yes, it very much does have a cultural aspect that you might not be aware of.</quote> Not really. Because that's not the immigration issue that the UK is struggling with. In fact I actually mentioned it in the post and you ignored it along with every other point raised. But I didn't realize it was you so I see why now. The refugee crisis won't go away outside of the EU, the Poles and Bulgarians are already there. People bringing their families in will continue to happen and people wanting to immgirate will still happen. People offering cheap labor will still hire foreign workers. The UK's immigration problems were not and never have been caused by the free EU passage. That was mainly an advantage for students. And the solutions to fighting those issues, still have no real effect on the EU. Things like discouraging house-shares from letting multiple foreigners live there. <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>How about the right to fish off their own waters? </quote> They have that right in the EU.</quote> Nope. The EU carved up UK fishing waters and distributed them to other EU nations that didn't have as good of fishing spots. The UK lost sovereignty over parts of their own waters by being in the EU.</quote> This is a very valid point but I wouldn't call it a right or a culture. It's a law and trade agreement dispute. No one can actually point out what culture, right or heritage means here beyond "It's inspiring emotional wording with no meat behind it." which was TC's point about the emotion.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 5:43:38 PM #25:	s0nicfan posted... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermens Organisations, said he understood why the EU would start negotiations with a hard line but that he believed there would be radical changes for the industry. He said: I understand where they are coming from. Its quite a hard line to go into a negotiation and we are waiting to see what the UKs position is. But the reality is that there is a huge imbalance in terms of other member states fishing in UK water. Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%. Is there a particle reason you are linking that article and quoting that part of the article? Or are you just bored? <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898941041] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals <quote>Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermens Organisations, said he understood why the EU would start negotiations with a hard line but that he believed there would be radical changes for the industry. He said: I understand where they are coming from. Its quite a hard line to go into a negotiation and we are waiting to see what the UKs position is. But the reality is that there is a huge imbalance in terms of other member states fishing in UK water. Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%.</quote></quote> Is there a particle reason you are linking that article and quoting that part of the article? Or are you just bored?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Howl 04/02/18 5:44:00 PM #26:	UnfairRepresent posted... Howl posted... Of course that message only applies to countries that were hostorically predominantly white. Any other country that has people of other races can rightfully preserve their culture and if any white person attempts to make any use of that culture they are derided as being culturally appropriating. I don't understand what heritage and culture and values you feel the UK lost by being part of the EU... Or is going to gain by leaving. These are just emotional buzzwords. Actually make a coherant point or else you're just becoming examples of TC's point. You remind me of when people defend homophobia by saying things like "Gay sex is destroying the fabric and cohesion of the soul of society." Well I'm not English so I really can't speak to their individual reasonss for wanting to preserve their culture or what's the specific reasons they have because I honestly am not informed enough about it. I was speaking more generally about the perception of them by people outside of them that likely are just as ignorant of their issues just as you or me. --- Posted with GameRaven 3.3 <cite>Howl posted [p:898941054] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Howl posted...</cite> <quote> Of course that message only applies to countries that were hostorically predominantly white. Any other country that has people of other races can rightfully preserve their culture and if any white person attempts to make any use of that culture they are derided as being culturally appropriating.</quote> I don't understand what heritage and culture and values you feel the UK lost by being part of the EU... Or is going to gain by leaving. These are just emotional buzzwords. Actually make a coherant point or else you're just becoming examples of TC's point. You remind me of when people defend homophobia by saying things like "Gay sex is destroying the fabric and cohesion of the soul of society."</quote> Well I'm not English so I really can't speak to their individual reasonss for wanting to preserve their culture or what's the specific reasons they have because I honestly am not informed enough about it. I was speaking more generally about the perception of them by people outside of them that likely are just as ignorant of their issues just as you or me.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Samaellives91 04/02/18 5:45:05 PM #27:	The EU has begun to slowly die anyway, might as well bail from a sinking ship. --- Insert Deep/funny/nonsensical signature here. <cite>Samaellives91 posted [p:898941105] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote>The EU has begun to slowly die anyway, might as well bail from a sinking ship.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:45:56 PM #28:	UnfairRepresent posted... This is a very valid point but I wouldn't call it a right or a culture. It's a law and trade agreement dispute. No one can actually point out what culture, right or heritage means here beyond "It's inspiring emotional wording with no meat behind it." which was TC's point about the emotion. How about the fact that under EU law somewhere between 20-60% of all UK laws are EU laws which citizens have no legal way to change? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 If you can't control your own borders, are allowing other nations to harvest your resources, and have to abide by laws most of which weren't drafted by your own people... at what point does that become rights and heritage? --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898941156] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>This is a very valid point but I wouldn't call it a right or a culture. It's a law and trade agreement dispute. No one can actually point out what culture, right or heritage means here beyond "It's inspiring emotional wording with no meat behind it." which was TC's point about the emotion. </quote> How about the fact that under EU law somewhere between 20-60% of all UK laws are EU laws which citizens have no legal way to change? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 If you can't control your own borders, are allowing other nations to harvest your resources, and have to abide by laws most of which weren't drafted by your own people... at what point does that become rights and heritage?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:47:41 PM #29:	JE19426 posted... s0nicfan posted... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermens Organisations, said he understood why the EU would start negotiations with a hard line but that he believed there would be radical changes for the industry. He said: I understand where they are coming from. Its quite a hard line to go into a negotiation and we are waiting to see what the UKs position is. But the reality is that there is a huge imbalance in terms of other member states fishing in UK water. Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%. Is there a particle reason you are linking that article and quoting that part of the article? Or are you just bored? Found the Remoaner. Unless you're being obscenely pedantic in interpreting words, the fact that a significant amount of fish caught off UK shores are caught by other nations and then taken back to those nations is fundamentally the same as the UK losing the ability to fish off their own coast. There aren't an infinite number of fishing spots... if the EU is letting other nations use half of them, that's half fewer spots for UK fisherman. The quotas are designed to keep the UK from having market dominance by nature of having the most/best fishing spots by capping them at how much they can gather and then letting other nations fish the excess. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898941245] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals <quote>Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermens Organisations, said he understood why the EU would start negotiations with a hard line but that he believed there would be radical changes for the industry. He said: I understand where they are coming from. Its quite a hard line to go into a negotiation and we are waiting to see what the UKs position is. But the reality is that there is a huge imbalance in terms of other member states fishing in UK water. Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%.</quote></quote> Is there a particle reason you are linking that article and quoting that part of the article? Or are you just bored?</quote> Found the Remoaner. Unless you're being obscenely pedantic in interpreting words, the fact that a significant amount of fish caught off UK shores are caught by other nations and then taken back to those nations is fundamentally the same as the UK losing the ability to fish off their own coast. There aren't an infinite number of fishing spots... if the EU is letting other nations use half of them, that's half fewer spots for UK fisherman. The quotas are designed to keep the UK from having market dominance by nature of having the most/best fishing spots by capping them at how much they can gather and then letting other nations fish the excess.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 5:50:03 PM #30:	Howl posted... Well I'm not English so I really can't speak to their individual reasonss for wanting to preserve their culture or what's the specific reasons they have because I honestly am not informed enough about it. I was speaking more generally about the perception of them by people outside of them that likely are just as ignorant of their issues just as you or me. I've lived in the UK and have family there. I've worked with businesses that moved headquarters out of the UK when Brexit happened. Also ones that planned to leave Scotland if they went independant. I've followed the immigration and the "Our own system of rights!" issues. Really the EU comes down to trade agreements, deals and tarrifs. All the people shouting about "culture" and "immigration" and "heritage" and "foreigners" don't seem to understand what the EU is. I've gotta say In my experience I've seen TC's point a lot. There's a lot of emotional rhetoric which really doesn't mean anything. It's like 87% emotion 13% actual points. When it should be the other way round. We've seen a lot of it in this topic. I will say tho that I don't think this is unique to the Brexit side, the Remain camp was just as uninformed. I think there are people like Admiral just like to have tug of wars on both "sides" and don't really care what the issues are beyond liking to shout at people. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898941383] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>Howl posted...</cite> <quote> Well I'm not English so I really can't speak to their individual reasonss for wanting to preserve their culture or what's the specific reasons they have because I honestly am not informed enough about it. I was speaking more generally about the perception of them by people outside of them that likely are just as ignorant of their issues just as you or me.</quote> I've lived in the UK and have family there. I've worked with businesses that moved headquarters out of the UK when Brexit happened. Also ones that planned to leave Scotland if they went independant. I've followed the immigration and the "Our own system of rights!" issues. Really the EU comes down to trade agreements, deals and tarrifs. All the people shouting about "culture" and "immigration" and "heritage" and "foreigners" don't seem to understand what the EU is. I've gotta say In my experience I've seen TC's point a lot. There's a lot of emotional rhetoric which really doesn't mean anything. It's like 87% emotion 13% actual points. When it should be the other way round. We've seen a lot of it in this topic. I will say tho that I don't think this is unique to the Brexit side, the Remain camp was just as uninformed. I think there are people like Admiral just like to have tug of wars on both "sides" and don't really care what the issues are beyond liking to shout at people.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 5:52:55 PM #31:	s0nicfan posted... How about the fact that under EU law somewhere between 20-60% of all UK laws are EU laws which citizens have no legal way to change? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 UK citizens have as much ability to change EU law as they have to change UK laws. I don't see why the fact some laws are EU ones is special. If you can't control your own borders, The UK can control their own borders. Unless you're being obscenely pedantic in interpreting words, the fact that a significant amount of fish caught off UK shores are caught by other nations and then taken back to those nations is fundamentally the same as the UK losing the ability to fish off their own coast. There aren't an infinite number of fishing spots... if the EU is letting other nations use half of them, that's half fewer spots for UK fisherman. Nothing in your article supports your claim that each country can only use certain areas. There's nothing obscenely pedantic about pointing that out. The quotas are designed to keep the UK from having market dominance by nature of having the most/best fishing spots by capping them at how much they can gather and then letting other nations fish the excess. No they are designed to preserve the fish. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898941525] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>How about the fact that under EU law somewhere between 20-60% of all UK laws are EU laws which citizens have no legal way to change? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 </quote> UK citizens have as much ability to change EU law as they have to change UK laws. I don't see why the fact some laws are EU ones is special. <quote>If you can't control your own borders,</quote> The UK can control their own borders. <quote>Unless you're being obscenely pedantic in interpreting words, the fact that a significant amount of fish caught off UK shores are caught by other nations and then taken back to those nations is fundamentally the same as the UK losing the ability to fish off their own coast. There aren't an infinite number of fishing spots... if the EU is letting other nations use half of them, that's half fewer spots for UK fisherman. </quote> Nothing in your article supports your claim that each country can only use certain areas. There's nothing obscenely pedantic about pointing that out. <quote>The quotas are designed to keep the UK from having market dominance by nature of having the most/best fishing spots by capping them at how much they can gather and then letting other nations fish the excess. </quote> No they are designed to preserve the fish.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Soviet_Poland 04/02/18 5:54:30 PM #32:	The Admiral posted... Poles are the same racial group, so that undercuts your racism narrative. Yes and no. When you compare mass immigration in the U.S. of Irish and Polish people, they were largely seen outside of "white", viewed more as unruly, uneducated laborers. Not unlike how latino/hispanic people are largely treated today. The definitions of racial groups change over the years, and while Irish and Polish are seen as "white" these days, there certainly is an undertone when I interact with people. I look very polish. I have a very polish name. Interactions can definitely surround my ethnicity as people try to relate with that very specific identity, as opposed to someone of a more anglo-saxon background or mixed heritage. This is accentuated by the difference in language as well. I think there is a closer leap between the romance languages when you consider spanish, french, english compared with slavic languages. Basically I'm as "foreign" as a "white" person can get and while it's never been an issue and I probably benefit from privilege more often then not, I also find I relate with some of my first-generation ethnic friends a bit more too. It's really hard to generalize "white" people because of how heterogeneous that group can be, but people can very easily latch onto polish generalizations. I would not be surprised if there were some really conservative people in the UK who are slightly prejudiced against some of the polish workers in their country. I really think the comparison to how some people in the U.S. treat latinos is kind of the same, "not their country" "sending money away back home", "unruly, criminals" etc, etc. --- https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png <cite>Soviet_Poland posted [p:898941599] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>Poles are the same racial group, so that undercuts your racism narrative.</quote> Yes and no. When you compare mass immigration in the U.S. of Irish and Polish people, they were largely seen outside of "white", viewed more as unruly, uneducated laborers. Not unlike how latino/hispanic people are largely treated today. The definitions of racial groups change over the years, and while Irish and Polish are seen as "white" these days, there certainly is an undertone when I interact with people. I look very polish. I have a very polish name. Interactions can definitely surround my ethnicity as people try to relate with that very specific identity, as opposed to someone of a more anglo-saxon background or mixed heritage. This is accentuated by the difference in language as well. I think there is a closer leap between the romance languages when you consider spanish, french, english compared with slavic languages. Basically I'm as "foreign" as a "white" person can get and while it's never been an issue and I probably benefit from privilege more often then not, I also find I relate with some of my first-generation ethnic friends a bit more too. It's really hard to generalize "white" people because of how heterogeneous that group can be, but people can very easily latch onto polish generalizations. I would not be surprised if there were some really conservative people in the UK who are slightly prejudiced against some of the polish workers in their country. I really think the comparison to how some people in the U.S. treat latinos is kind of the same, "not their country" "sending money away back home", "unruly, criminals" etc, etc.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Howl 04/02/18 5:54:56 PM #33:	UnfairRepresent posted... Howl posted... Well I'm not English so I really can't speak to their individual reasonss for wanting to preserve their culture or what's the specific reasons they have because I honestly am not informed enough about it. I was speaking more generally about the perception of them by people outside of them that likely are just as ignorant of their issues just as you or me. I've lived in the UK and have family there. I've worked with businesses that moved headquarters out of the UK when Brexit happened. Also ones that planned to leave Scotland if they went independant. I've followed the immigration and the "Our own system of rights!" issues. Really the EU comes down to trade agreements, deals and tarrifs. All the people shouting about "culture" and "immigration" and "heritage" and "foreigners" don't seem to understand what the EU is. I've gotta say In my experience I've seen TC's point a lot. There's a lot of emotional rhetoric which really doesn't mean anything. It's like 87% emotion 13% actual points. When it should be the other way round. We've seen a lot of it in this topic. I will say tho that I don't think this is unique to the Brexit side, the Remain camp was just as uninformed. I think there are people like Admiral just like to have tug of wars on both "sides" and don't really care what the issues are beyond liking to shout at people. Um TC's point is what you were defending right? So why are you now saying it's 87% emotion and 13% facts? That doesn't seem like a defense of it at all. --- Posted with GameRaven 3.3 <cite>Howl posted [p:898941630] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Howl posted...</cite> <quote> Well I'm not English so I really can't speak to their individual reasonss for wanting to preserve their culture or what's the specific reasons they have because I honestly am not informed enough about it. I was speaking more generally about the perception of them by people outside of them that likely are just as ignorant of their issues just as you or me.</quote> I've lived in the UK and have family there. I've worked with businesses that moved headquarters out of the UK when Brexit happened. Also ones that planned to leave Scotland if they went independant. I've followed the immigration and the "Our own system of rights!" issues. Really the EU comes down to trade agreements, deals and tarrifs. All the people shouting about "culture" and "immigration" and "heritage" and "foreigners" don't seem to understand what the EU is. I've gotta say In my experience I've seen TC's point a lot. There's a lot of emotional rhetoric which really doesn't mean anything. It's like 87% emotion 13% actual points. When it should be the other way round. We've seen a lot of it in this topic. I will say tho that I don't think this is unique to the Brexit side, the Remain camp was just as uninformed. I think there are people like Admiral just like to have tug of wars on both "sides" and don't really care what the issues are beyond liking to shout at people.</quote> Um TC's point is what you were defending right? So why are you now saying it's 87% emotion and 13% facts? That doesn't seem like a defense of it at all.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:55:30 PM #34:	JE19426 posted... No they are designed to preserve the fish. If they're designed to preserve the fish, then why are other nations fishing off the UK coast and they can't do anything about it? If the EU decided there were a million fish you could catch a day to preserve the fish, they could let the UK catch a million fish a day. Nothing about "preserving fish" justifies the EU giving most of the fish to other countries to catch. Again: Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%. If it's about preserving fish, explain why Britain doesn't have 100% of the cap off their own waters. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898941664] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote>No they are designed to preserve the fish.</quote> If they're designed to preserve the fish, then why are other nations fishing off the UK coast and they can't do anything about it? If the EU decided there were a million fish you could catch a day to preserve the fish, they could let the UK catch a million fish a day. Nothing about "preserving fish" justifies the EU giving most of the fish to other countries to catch. Again: <quote>Around 85% of the current catch of the Danish fleet is in UK waters and 80% of the current catch of the fleet from Normandy. If we look at quota shares in Channel cod, the French have 84% and Britain has 9%.</quote> If it's about preserving fish, explain why Britain doesn't have 100% of the cap off their own waters.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 5:57:03 PM #35:	s0nicfan posted... How about the fact that under EU law somewhere between 20-60% of all UK laws are EU laws which citizens have no legal way to change? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 ... I don't think you read the article. I think you just read like a headline.... Seriously re-read that article. It argues against the point you said above it, s0nicfan posted... If you can't control your own borders, The free EU passage wasn't the UK's immigration problem and was something the UK was on board with. And the immgiration issue doesn't go away from leaving the EU. It really wasn't a relevant issue, a statement like that once again is just emotion rather than a point. are allowing other nations to harvest your resources, and have to abide by laws most of which weren't drafted by your own people... at what point does that become rights and heritage? That's what I'm asking you. But no I wouldn't consider trade agreements and laws the UK helped form and agree to part of rights and heritage. I'd consider like if the EU lowered age of consent to 13 in the UK a violation of rights and heritage. I'd consider if the EU said the UK can't have a monarchy a violation of heritage. I'd consider if the EU said gay marriage or abortion had to be legal or illegal in the UK an issue of rights. However none of that can possibly occur because that's not what the EU is. But "This is the agreed upon trading standards for transporting bananas to Denmak" and "how much are we paying for memberships vs how much do we get out of it." is not a rights or heritage issue no. And you know this. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898941750] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote> How about the fact that under EU law somewhere between 20-60% of all UK laws are EU laws which citizens have no legal way to change? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105</quote> ... I don't think you read the article. I think you just read like a headline.... Seriously re-read that article. It argues against the point you said above it, <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote> If you can't control your own borders,</quote> The free EU passage wasn't the UK's immigration problem and was something the UK was on board with. And the immgiration issue doesn't go away from leaving the EU. It really wasn't a relevant issue, a statement like that once again is just emotion rather than a point. <quote> are allowing other nations to harvest your resources, and have to abide by laws most of which weren't drafted by your own people... at what point does that become rights and heritage?</quote> That's what I'm asking you. But no I wouldn't consider trade agreements and laws the UK helped form and agree to part of rights and heritage. I'd consider like if the EU lowered age of consent to 13 in the UK a violation of rights and heritage. I'd consider if the EU said the UK can't have a monarchy a violation of heritage. I'd consider if the EU said gay marriage or abortion had to be legal or illegal in the UK an issue of rights. However none of that can possibly occur because that's not what the EU is. But "This is the agreed upon trading standards for transporting bananas to Denmak" and "how much are we paying for memberships vs how much do we get out of it." is not a rights or heritage issue no. And you know this.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 5:58:56 PM #36:	s0nicfan posted... If they're designed to preserve the fish, then why are other nations fishing off the UK coast and they can't do anything about it? Why would they? If it's about preserving fish, explain why Britain doesn't have 100% of the cap off their own waters. Because the common fisheries policy are about sharing fishery areas and if a country has a 100% of an area then they aren't sharing it. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898941856] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>If they're designed to preserve the fish, then why are other nations fishing off the UK coast and they can't do anything about it? </quote> Why would they? <quote>If it's about preserving fish, explain why Britain doesn't have 100% of the cap off their own waters. </quote> Because the common fisheries policy are about sharing fishery areas and if a country has a 100% of an area then they aren't sharing it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 5:59:25 PM #37:	UnfairRepresent posted... But "This is the agreed upon trading standards for transporting bananas to Denmak" and "how much are we paying for memberships vs how much do we get out of it." is not a rights or heritage issue no. And you know this. My issue is primarily that we're pretending the EU is a simple "trade union" like it was when it was formed in 1993. It has a central government. They're talking about creating an EU army. Most of the laws in these countries is dictated by the EU. We're far, FAR beyond "trade union" and it's disingenuous to pretend that the UK's issues is no more than "bananas" and "union dues". --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898941881] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>But "This is the agreed upon trading standards for transporting bananas to Denmak" and "how much are we paying for memberships vs how much do we get out of it." is not a rights or heritage issue no. And you know this.</quote> My issue is primarily that we're pretending the EU is a simple "trade union" like it was when it was formed in 1993. It has a central government. They're talking about creating an EU army. Most of the laws in these countries is dictated by the EU. We're far, FAR beyond "trade union" and it's disingenuous to pretend that the UK's issues is no more than "bananas" and "union dues".</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 6:00:58 PM #38:	Howl posted... Um TC's point is what you were defending right? So why are you now saying it's 87% emotion and 13% facts? That doesn't seem like a defense of it at all. I should clarify I mainly mean: "The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England, and that Europhobia was the outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity. Seems to make a lot sense to me. All the shit about the empire and stuff I don't know about. But "Fuck those guys, we're these guys and we're strong! We have to stand up for our rights, heritage, morals, values and stop those Muslims!" seems about right. Soviet_Poland posted... I would not be surprised if there were some really conservative people in the UK who are slightly prejudiced against some of the polish workers in their country. "Slightly" is putting it mildly. The polish people I worked with in the UK used to get stones thrown at them when they walked home. They had to start driving even though it was like 10 minutes walk. Bigotry is an ugly thing. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898941982] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>Howl posted...</cite> <quote> Um TC's point is what you were defending right? So why are you now saying it's 87% emotion and 13% facts? That doesn't seem like a defense of it at all.</quote> I should clarify I mainly mean: "The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England, and that Europhobia was the outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity. Seems to make a lot sense to me. All the shit about the empire and stuff I don't know about. But "Fuck those guys, we're these guys and we're strong! We have to stand up for our rights, heritage, morals, values and stop those Muslims!" seems about right. <cite>Soviet_Poland posted...</cite> <quote> I would not be surprised if there were some really conservative people in the UK who are slightly prejudiced against some of the polish workers in their country.</quote> "Slightly" is putting it mildly. The polish people I worked with in the UK used to get stones thrown at them when they walked home. They had to start driving even though it was like 10 minutes walk. Bigotry is an ugly thing.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Soviet_Poland 04/02/18 6:02:11 PM #39:	UnfairRepresent posted... "Slightly" is putting it mildly. The polish people I worked with in the UK used to get stones thrown at them when they walked home. They had to start driving even though it was like 10 minutes walk. Bigotry is an ugly thing. I haven't been to the UK so I can't speak to how it really is there. I'm trying to hedge my language so Admiral doesn't just entirely dismiss me as liberal mumbo-jumbo. I'd believe it. --- https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png <cite>Soviet_Poland posted [p:898942038] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>"Slightly" is putting it mildly. The polish people I worked with in the UK used to get stones thrown at them when they walked home. They had to start driving even though it was like 10 minutes walk. Bigotry is an ugly thing.</quote> I haven't been to the UK so I can't speak to how it really is there. I'm trying to hedge my language so Admiral doesn't just entirely dismiss me as liberal mumbo-jumbo. I'd believe it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 6:03:42 PM #40:	JE19426 posted... s0nicfan posted... If they're designed to preserve the fish, then why are other nations fishing off the UK coast and they can't do anything about it? Why would they? If it's about preserving fish, explain why Britain doesn't have 100% of the cap off their own waters. Because the common fisheries policy are about sharing fishery areas and if a country has a 100% of an area then they aren't sharing it. "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898942105] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>If they're designed to preserve the fish, then why are other nations fishing off the UK coast and they can't do anything about it? </quote> Why would they? <quote>If it's about preserving fish, explain why Britain doesn't have 100% of the cap off their own waters. </quote> Because the common fisheries policy are about sharing fishery areas and if a country has a 100% of an area then they aren't sharing it.</quote> "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 6:04:39 PM #41:	s0nicfan posted... "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898942157] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>"Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. </quote> I'm not sure what that has to do with my post.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 6:04:57 PM #42:	JE19426 posted... s0nicfan posted... "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. Sorry, I can't fix stupid. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898942172] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>JE19426 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>"Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. </quote> I'm not sure what that has to do with my post.</quote> Sorry, I can't fix stupid.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JE19426 04/02/18 6:07:12 PM #43:	s0nicfan posted... Sorry, I can't fix stupid. Oh, I see. It has nothing to do with my post. You just don't have an argument against my post. <cite>JE19426 posted [p:898942276] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Sorry, I can't fix stupid. </quote> Oh, I see. It has nothing to do with my post. You just don't have an argument against my post.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 6:07:31 PM #44:	s0nicfan posted... My issue is primarily that we're pretending the EU is a simple "trade union" like it was when it was formed in 1993. It has a central government. They're talking about creating an EU army. Most of the laws in these countries is dictated by the EU. We're far, FAR beyond "trade union" and it's disingenuous to pretend that the UK's issues is no more than "bananas" and "union dues". You're switching horses. I'm saying the EU isn't about rights, morals, heritage or any other buzzword. And it's also not relevant to the UK's immigration issues. And despite arguing that it is for the entire topic, when called on it you go "Well it's more than a minor trade dispute!" Yes it's several major trade, businsess and law disputes. But that's all it is. Again I think you're being confused by headlines which read "EU dictates 60% of UK laws!" and then not actually reading. Hell I'd argue the biggest #1 issue about whether or not to be in the EU is singularly the debate of whether or not it benefits the UK economy to stay in it. And you don't seem to even care about that. You're dismissing what the UK pays to be a member and dismissing trade deals when they are pretty important. Whether or not the EUless UK gets a Canada style deal or a Norway deal is a big big big big deal. Norway is not in the EU but it has to be abide by all the EU's rules regardless in order to trade, and can't negociate. It's fucked. Canada on the other hand doesn't have to abide by any of the EU's rules and can trade freely. And so it makes bank. People ignoring that but talking about "heritage" and "60% of UK laws are made by Brussells!" to me just don't get it and are the emotional guys TC spoke of. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898942293] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote> My issue is primarily that we're pretending the EU is a simple "trade union" like it was when it was formed in 1993. It has a central government. They're talking about creating an EU army. Most of the laws in these countries is dictated by the EU. We're far, FAR beyond "trade union" and it's disingenuous to pretend that the UK's issues is no more than "bananas" and "union dues".</quote> You're switching horses. I'm saying the EU isn't about rights, morals, heritage or any other buzzword. And it's also not relevant to the UK's immigration issues. And despite arguing that it is for the entire topic, when called on it you go "Well it's more than a minor trade dispute!" Yes it's several major trade, businsess and law disputes. But that's all it is. Again I think you're being confused by headlines which read "EU dictates 60% of UK laws!" and then not actually reading. Hell I'd argue the biggest #1 issue about whether or not to be in the EU is singularly the debate of whether or not it benefits the UK economy to stay in it. And you don't seem to even care about that. You're dismissing what the UK pays to be a member and dismissing trade deals when they are pretty important. Whether or not the EUless UK gets a Canada style deal or a Norway deal is a big big big big deal. Norway is not in the EU but it has to be abide by all the EU's rules regardless in order to trade, and can't negociate. It's fucked. Canada on the other hand doesn't have to abide by any of the EU's rules and can trade freely. And so it makes bank. People ignoring that but talking about "heritage" and "60% of UK laws are made by Brussells!" to me just don't get it and are the emotional guys TC spoke of.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 6:08:28 PM #45:	s0nicfan posted... "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. I agree for the record. That's the kind of stuff Remain and Leavers should be debating about. Not "heritage, immgiration and our history!" --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898942343] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote> "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants.</quote> I agree for the record. That's the kind of stuff Remain and Leavers should be debating about. Not "heritage, immgiration and our history!"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 6:10:26 PM #46:	UnfairRepresent posted... s0nicfan posted... "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants. I agree for the record. That's the kind of stuff Remain and Leavers should be debating about. Not "heritage, immgiration and our history!" Yea, ultimately we agree. I'll admit it's hard to define where rights and heritage begin and end, but will ultimately still stand by the fact that it's more than just trade agreements. Either way, it'd be great if everyone just discussed the merits of each side on the back of fact. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898942446] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote> "Why should the UK get the exclusive right to the fish in their own waters" is exactly the kind of attitude I was highlighting in why Brexit is about more than immigrants.</quote> I agree for the record. That's the kind of stuff Remain and Leavers should be debating about. Not "heritage, immgiration and our history!"</quote> Yea, ultimately we agree. I'll admit it's hard to define where rights and heritage begin and end, but will ultimately still stand by the fact that it's more than just trade agreements. Either way, it'd be great if everyone just discussed the merits of each side on the back of fact.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 04/02/18 6:11:31 PM #47:	s0nicfan posted... , it'd be great if everyone just discussed the merits of each side on the back of fact. Ah if only. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:898942501] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>, it'd be great if everyone just discussed the merits of each side on the back of fact.</quote> Ah if only.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 04/02/18 6:12:01 PM #48:	UnfairRepresent posted... s0nicfan posted... , it'd be great if everyone just discussed the merits of each side on the back of fact. Ah if only. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ-uV72pQKI" data-time=" --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:898942527] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>, it'd be great if everyone just discussed the merits of each side on the back of fact.</quote> Ah if only.</quote> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ-uV72pQKI" data-time="</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Shuto-uke 04/02/18 6:12:19 PM #49:	The Admiral posted... Shuto-uke posted... That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people." Could be that. But it could also be that they have what they see as a unique culture that they want to preserve. No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. You don't have to become a hermit state to preserve your culture. Some of the older members of the EU, such as France and Germany have distinct cultures from each other, their own languages and local institutions. French are not changing wine for wheat beer, and french are not switching pretzels for baguettes. Unless you mean something else by preserve your culture (I am not saying you did, but many white supremacists love using those 2 words), but nothing in your post tells me you're going for a racial angle to this, so I will assume you didn't. <cite>Shuto-uke posted [p:898942540] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Shuto-uke posted...</cite> <quote>That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people."</quote> Could be that. But it could also be that they have what they see as a unique culture that they want to preserve. No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> You don't have to become a hermit state to preserve your culture. Some of the older members of the EU, such as France and Germany have distinct cultures from each other, their own languages and local institutions. French are not changing wine for wheat beer, and french are not switching pretzels for baguettes. Unless you mean something else by preserve your culture (I am not saying you did, but many white supremacists love using those 2 words), but nothing in your post tells me you're going for a racial angle to this, so I will assume you didn't.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Shuto-uke 04/02/18 6:13:12 PM #50:	The Admiral posted... DarkChozoGhost posted... The Admiral posted... No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad. When "heritage and values" is actually just code for "people of other races," and not actually something tangible, then yes it's a bad thing. Why do you assume it's code when those "people of other races" have an established history of not integrating and trying to push their own culture when they enter the UK? So you were aiming for the white supremacist angle after all. Fuck off, leave the racial stuff out of my topic will ya? <cite>Shuto-uke posted [p:898942578] in The Brexit... [t:76478616]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote><cite>DarkChozoGhost posted...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>No clue where this notion came from that a native country wanting to preserve its heritage and values is bad.</quote> When "heritage and values" is actually just code for "people of other races," and not actually something tangible, then yes it's a bad thing.</quote> Why do you assume it's code when those "people of other races" have an established history of not integrating and trying to push their own culture when they enter the UK?</quote> So you were aiming for the white supremacist angle after all. Fuck off, leave the racial stuff out of my topic will ya?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > The Brexiter Psychology is fascinating (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > The Brexiter Psychology is fascinating