Current Events > Do you support all officers be required to wear and activate bodycams?

(+) Yeah! (+)

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I don't see why not.
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And asscams as well.
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yes and they should be punished if they turn them off
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Paper_Okami posted...

yes and they should be punished if they turn them off

yeah but it would cost lots of money to have every single officer in the u.s. have one, i've heard that before
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All officers? Mandatory? All the time?

Absolutely not, that's an awful idea and anyone who supports it really hasnt thought about it at all
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UnfairRepresent posted...

All officers? Mandatory? All the time?

Absolutely not, that's an awful idea and anyone who supports it really hasnt thought about it at all

why is it a bad idea though?
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Absolutely. I fully support individuals recording themselves more often. I've had my surveillance save me big time twice now, and it's only reinforced my addiction to more hidden cameras and recording devices.
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No. It's a waste of money. We don't need shaky and potentially unreliable video footage when we already have the officers' testimonies of what happened.
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I do but don't think the public has a right to see the video
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KingCrabCake posted...

I do but don't think the public has a right to see the video

why not? i know in the case of that crawling guy in that hotel, there had to be a huge fight to have that video released and they wanted the widow of that guy that was shot to sign something before she was able to see that bodycam video
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DifferentialEquation posted...

No. It's a waste of money. We don't need shaky and potentially unreliable video footage when we already have the officers' testimonies of what happened.

Lol
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XBoner posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

All officers? Mandatory? All the time?

Absolutely not, that's an awful idea and anyone who supports it really hasnt thought about it at all

why is it a bad idea though?

Where to start?

To begin with everywhere in the US, UK and France that trialed mandatory body cams has seen an approx 15% rise in violence from the general public as well as increase in harrasment and abuse as some people think a cop with a cam is a target who is powerless to react.

So it increases violence. Terrible idea.

Then there's cost. Outfitting the entire American police department with these things is going to be a fortune and I will not accept it out of taxpayer funds. You want it, then YOU pay for it.

Expensive. Terrible idea.

Then there is the fact that there is virtually no link whatsoever to bodycam footage being used or relevant for court cases. Either for criminal proceedings or investigating police corruption. If someone is being accused of violence or corruption the evidence is usually either overwhelming or too weak regardless of whether anyone involed had a shaky body cam. It would have no signifcant effect whatsoever on any court proceedings.

So it would accomplish next to nothing on a court scale. Terrible idea.

Then there is the fact that cams are notoriously awkward. Footage can easily be edited or even unedited just taken out of context to create sensationalism. E.G someone robs a store, beats up a girl, runs down the street, then is tackled by a cop and beaten before being arrested. Someone takes that latter cops bodycam and goes "Cop brutalizes innocent jogger who was just running to his daughters house" and 17 million people believe it on facebook.

On top of that, cams are insanely easy to break or lose. Cops cams fall off all the time, without even leaving CE that cop's bodycam fell off when dealing with Dustin headbutting the car. So they're irrelevant. A bad cop can easily just knock off his own cam or break it and say it was damaged before doing something corrupt.

So it would do nothing to hinder the behavior of bad cops, meanwhile it would be used to hurt good cops. Terrible idea.

And this is a much weaker point but still a point is that people act differently when recorded 24/7. You familar with 1984? Where people are arrested for saying "Down with Big Brother" in their sleep? Well obviously not that far but cops will be feeling the same sting. Remember that harmless sexist joke you made with your partner in the car in the morning? That's on cam now, then what happens if you're accused of sexual harrasment? Thats now evidence against you.

Remember that kid who got busted for pot but the cop let him go because who cares it's just a joint? Not anymore, you're being filmed. This might come up later. You gotta follow the book.

That guy jaywalking? Can't let it slide, you're on film. Take him down.

Kids playing BB in the street? Remember the cop who joined in and invited Shaq round as well? Can't happen now. Being filmed.

So instead of being friendly human beings, cops will now be more robotic, cold, quiet, strict and inhuman. Terrible idea

Maybe specific officers in specific scenarios where they might be useful? And privatley funded also. I can imagine a handful of scenarios where bodycams might come in handy.

But mandatory for all officers all the time? It's just spending a fortune to make the world a worse and more violent shittier place and an already difficult job more unplesant for no pratical, pragmatic or logical gain. Pure lazy emotion backs it, not real thought.
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Paper_Okami posted...

yes and they should be punished if they turn them off

Even when they go to the bathroom?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Then there's cost. Outfitting the entire American police department with these things is going to be a fortune and I will not accept it out of taxpayer funds. You want it, then YOU pay for it.

That cost can be entirely paid by the money they'd save on settlement fees with people they'd be far less likely to assault while on camera

UnfairRepresent posted...

Remember that kid who got busted for pot but the cop let him go because who cares it's just a joint? Not anymore, you're being filmed. This might come up later. You gotta follow the book.

They can still have discretion

How much money would that cost?
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Dat_Cracka_Jax posted...

Paper_Okami posted...

yes and they should be punished if they turn them off

Even when they go to the bathroom?

It's even stupider than that.

According to Okami that cop who arrested Dustin should be punished because Dustin knocked his cam off while headbutting a car...

Its just a blatant lack of understanding how body cams work. If you're going to push a cop for not having an active cam at all times, you're going to be punishing cops all day every day and 99.97% of them are going to be innocent cops just doing their jobs being fucked over by idiots and the weather.
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Only if every department is required to release weekly footage of the law abiding citizens being assholes. Not taking like criminals just everyday people being pieces of shit.
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Turbam posted...

How much money would that cost?

All of the money
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That 15% increase in violence due to body cams sounds unsubstantiated as fuck. There's no way that's accurate whatsoever.
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Sada_Pop posted...

Turbam posted...

How much money would that cost?

All of the money

Camera's about $1,000 a piece. Let's say for the sake of argument that there are 2 million "officers" in the US (the actual number is super complicated depending on what you count)

So that's 2 billion off the bat. But wait, there's more.

You need more than 1 each. You need several more for every department. You need a large amount. So lets say 5 billion just for the cams.

But the main cost is storage and transport. Where do you put them and how do you get them there? A big warehouse area for every law enforcement department in the US is crazy talk.

That's even more billions.

Let's be absurdly generous and say that transport and storage for every Police Department in the US cost 20 billion dollars.

That's still 25 billion dollars you want to spend just to hurt people, do harm, make life shitter and accomplish nothing. It's such a bad idea.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

That 15% increase in violence due to body cams sounds unsubstantiated as fuck. There's no way that's accurate whatsoever.

The trials were a few years ago and the news media intentionally ignored most of the results because they were bad for cams but some sights picked it up:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/police-may-be-more-likely-to-suffer-assaults-if-they-carry-body-worn-cameras-a7032891.html

I can't find the .gov stuff off hand but if you look it up you will find it. In France, the UK and the US every single area that trialed cops with cams and cops without cams in the same location, the public was more violent towards cops with cams.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Camera's about $1,000 a piece. Let's say for the sake of argument that there are 2 million "officers" in the US (the actual number is super complicated depending on what you count)

Well yeah, if you severely inflate your numbers, you get a huge total cost. I could say that eating bread is unreasonable if bread costs $2000 a loaf too, but nobody's forcing you to buy $2000 bread

https://www.amazon.com/Wearable-Hidden-Security-Upgraded-Version/dp/B078M36WVD/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1520641181&sr=8-3&keywords=badge+camera

Darklit_Minuet posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Camera's about $1,000 a piece. Let's say for the sake of argument that there are 2 million "officers" in the US (the actual number is super complicated depending on what you count)

Well yeah, if you severely inflate your numbers, you get a huge total cost. I could say that eating bread is unreasonable if bread costs $2000 a loaf too, but nobody's forcing you to buy $2000 bread

https://www.amazon.com/Wearable-Hidden-Security-Upgraded-Version/dp/B078M36WVD/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1520641181&sr=8-3&keywords=badge+camera

The US police force is not buying cheap gimmicks off Amazon

http://www.govtech.com/em/safety/Police-Body-Cam-Installation.html

It's approx $1,000 per camera. Not including storage

ONE police department alone spent over 1.2 million dollars just to outfit their officers.

This shit is expensive man.

But go ahead, put your money where your mouth is and start a kickstarter to buy all cops in America smiley gimmick spycams.

But we both know you will never ever ever do that, you want my taxpayer dollars to pay for your bad idea.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Camera's about $1,000 a piece. Let's say for the sake of argument that there are 2 million "officers" in the US (the actual number is super complicated depending on what you count)

Well yeah, if you severely inflate your numbers, you get a huge total cost. I could say that eating bread is unreasonable if bread costs $2000 a loaf too, but nobody's forcing you to buy $2000 bread

https://www.amazon.com/Wearable-Hidden-Security-Upgraded-Version/dp/B078M36WVD/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1520641181&sr=8-3&keywords=badge+camera

The US police force is not buying cheap gimmicks off Amazon

http://www.govtech.com/em/safety/Police-Body-Cam-Installation.html

It's approx $1,000 per camera. Not including storage

ONE police department alone spent over 1.2 million dollars just to outfit their officers.

This shit is expensive man.

But go ahead, put your money where your mouth is and start a kickstarter to buy all cops in America smiley gimmick spycams.

But we both know you will never ever ever do that, you want my taxpayer dollars to pay for your bad idea.

The government pays for police things, not me. If enough people vote for it, I don't give a fuck what you think your taxpayer dollars should go to because it's not your choice. I don't think a single penny of mine should go towards killing brown people in the Middle East for oil, but it's not up to me.

If you force a smaller budget, they'll make do. If you allow them to spend $1000 on super flashy gimmick cameras with flashing blue and red lights, they'll do that. Just like the military spends thousands of dollars per flashlight because their budget allows them to.

UnfairRepresent posted...

But the main cost is storage and transport. Where do you put them and how do you get them there? A big warehouse area for every law enforcement department in the US is crazy talk.

Are you talking data storage? They could just use USPS for transportation of physical cameras.
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Why only officers? Enlisted should have to wear them too.

Darklit_Minuet posted...

The government pays for police things, not me.

The government gets its money from me and we should force the government not to use my money for bad ideas.

No taxation without representation.
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fenderbender321 posted...

UR makes some good points...

Never say that again.
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I find it funny that some of the same right wingers who bitch about government corruption and want to stock pile arms;are the same people who trust police when their camera's happen to go off as they are killing someone .
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They should for their own safety. It would make sense with the witch hunts and false accusations.
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fenderbender321 posted...

UR makes some good points...

You can tell when the points are ironclad if people are dismissing them.

If there was a logical counter-argument, people would have made it. Instead the topic shifts to "I refuse to accept that." and "Well it shouldn't cost that much!" and insults and other dismissals.

I get it. Mandatory body cams FEELS like a good idea on the surface in the same way that at an uneducated glance throwing a bucket of liquid on a fire may FEEL like a good idea.

But if you stop, look at the facts, understand science and know that liquid is gasoline then you realize it's a bad idea and emotional people going "Throwing gasoline on that fire is a great idea!" becomes silly.
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XBoner posted...

Paper_Okami posted...

yes and they should be punished if they turn them off

yeah but it would cost lots of money to have every single officer in the u.s. have one, i've heard that before

How much would it cost compared to all the police misconduct lawsuits that the tax payers end up paying anyways?
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Yes, it protects them and civilians.
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southcoast09 posted...

They should for their own safety. It would make sense with the witch hunts and false accusations.

There is no link or precedent whatsoever for Body Cam footage having a significant impact on clearing or damning police accused of corruption.

Again this is something that might "Feel" right but actually isn't.

iPhone_7 posted...

XBoner posted...

Paper_Okami posted...

yes and they should be punished if they turn them off

yeah but it would cost lots of money to have every single officer in the u.s. have one, i've heard that before

How much would it cost compared to all the police misconduct lawsuits that the tax payers end up paying anyways?

Well it would cost more but it would be on top of them, not instead of them
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

The government pays for police things, not me.

The government gets its money from me and we should force the government not to use my money for bad ideas.

No taxation without representation.

You're free to vote against it. But if it wins, it'll happen whether you want it to or not

Imagine thinking cameras are $1,000 a piece. I could buy every cop in America a damn GoPro and it'd be like $250 a piece.

You lost off the bat by using such a ridiculously inflated price. If this became mandatory for every cop they'd be bought in mass at probably not even 1/10 of that price.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Again this is something that might "Feel" right but actually isn't.

fenderbender321 posted...

UR makes some good points...

These two posts are all anyone needs to see to know bodycams are the correct thing to do

Ideally yes but it's not feasible.

MrDrMan posted...

Imagine thinking cameras are $1,000 a piece. I could buy every cop in America a damn GoPro and it'd be like $250 a piece.

You lost off the bat by using such a ridiculously inflated price. If this became mandatory for every cop they'd be bought in mass at probably not even 1/10 of that price.

I didn't make up the price dude that's what the US Police department is paying per cam.

http://www.govtech.com/em/safety/Police-Body-Cam-Installation.html

Again your argument is "I reject reality because of my feelings. You lost!"

I'm sorry but that's not good enough.

You're going to go bonkers when you learn the US army pays about $30 per screw.
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To answer the question, yes. If police aren't doing anything wrong then there's no reason not to have them.

The government already funds all kind of dumb unnecessary shit anyway. Fucking Ben Carson spent like $30K on office furniture at taxpayers expense. I don't want to hear funding as being the problem.

Police misconduct is an issue. If you want to be an officer it should just come with the expectation you're gonna have to wear body cam.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

MrDrMan posted...

Imagine thinking cameras are $1,000 a piece. I could buy every cop in America a damn GoPro and it'd be like $250 a piece.

You lost off the bat by using such a ridiculously inflated price. If this became mandatory for every cop they'd be bought in mass at probably not even 1/10 of that price.

I didn't make up the price dude that's what the US Police department is paying per cam.

http://www.govtech.com/em/safety/Police-Body-Cam-Installation.html

Again your argument is "I reject reality because of my feelings. You lost!"

I'm sorry but that's not good enough.

You're going to go bonkers when you learn the US army pays about $30 per screw.

That is absolute bullshit. I'm sorry but the cameras don't cost $1,000 per unit. There's alternatives on the market for a quarter of that this is a fact.
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MrDrMan posted...

To answer the question, yes. If police aren't doing anything wrong then there's no reason not to have them.

Except all of these:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/76399009/897498760

MrDrMan posted...

The government already funds all kind of dumb unnecessary shit anyway. Fucking Ben Carson spent like $30K on office furniture at taxpayers expense. I don't want to hear funding as being the problem.

"The government wastes taxpayer money for no reason so it's okay for them to waste even more money for no reason"

No that's absurd. it's absolutely absurd logic.

Police misconduct is an issue. If you want to be an officer it should just come with the expectation you're gonna have to wear body cam.

Police cams would have no effect on police misconduct. It has no significant impact in courts, bad cops would still hide it and good cops would get caught out.

You're confusing feelings with reality.
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MrDrMan posted...

That is absolute bullshit. I'm sorry but the cameras don't cost $1,000 per unit.

Except they do. That's what the people who are buying them and installing you are telling you.

You don't get to say "That's bullshit!" to reality.

Again if you can do it cheaper then put your money where your mouth is and fund your own private kickstarter to do it cheaper privately with consenting police stations.

But you won't do that, you'll go "I don't accept reality." and then target my money. It's not right.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

"The government wastes taxpayer money for no reason so it's okay for them to waste even more money for no reason"

This is for a good reason

UnfairRepresent posted...

Except they do. That's what the people who are buying them and installing you are telling you.

So buy and install cheaper cams. Shop around.

UnfairRepresent posted...

MrDrMan posted...

To answer the question, yes. If police aren't doing anything wrong then there's no reason not to have them.

Except all of these:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/76399009/897498760

MrDrMan posted...

The government already funds all kind of dumb unnecessary shit anyway. Fucking Ben Carson spent like $30K on office furniture at taxpayers expense. I don't want to hear funding as being the problem.

"The government wastes taxpayer money for no reason so it's okay for them to waste even more money for no reason"

No that's absurd. it's absolutely absurd logic.

Police misconduct is an issue. If you want to be an officer it should just come with the expectation you're gonna have to wear body cam.

Police cams would have no effect on police misconduct. It has no significant impact in courts, bad cops would still hide it and good cops would get caught out.

You're confusing feelings with reality.

Your points are just wrong. Like I said you instantly lost by inflating the cost to absurd prices.

You're using $1,000 per camera to claim it's not feasible when we KNOW for a fact you could order a GoPro off Amazon for $300. To use that number is bullshit. Maybe the units they first discussed were that price but I could literally find body cams 1/4 of that price in not even 30 seconds.

The courts and shit will catch up to the technology. Body cam footage isn't properly used in courts now because it's the not the standard. The same goes with misconduct and the altering of footage. If it becomes standard then the footage should obviously go to a neutral party unrelated to the local precinct making it impossible to alter.

The laws and courts will catch up. That's not an issue.
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