Current Events > Not dating someone because of his / her skin color isn't necessarily racist

(+) Yeah! (+)

Link HT posted...

nicklebro posted...

Sure I agree with that, but if you refuse to date an Asian girl that you are actually attracted to, even if you're not usually attracted to Asians, and your reason is still "because she's Asian," then you're racist.

Correct, because that specific scenario implies you think there is something wrong with asians in general and has nothing to do with being attracted to people of a certain race.

Yeah having preferences isnt just not racist, I'm pretty sure it's a universal fact for nearly every man. Now I've seen sexy women of every race, but I know that on average I prefer certain races over others.

A good example is that on average I prefer Asian women over black women, BUT a very sexy black woman is more desirable to me than a very sexy Asian woman.

But of course some of my fellow liberals love to take things too far and of race ever plays a role in anything ever, you're a racist and deserve to die. Hell were starting to get shit for not wanting to fuck trans women.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

If you've never been sexually attracted to someone of a certain race, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you then said that you don't find a certain race attractive.

If we're not talking about attraction, then the chance that the person is racist increases pretty phenomenally. But attraction is what we're talking about.

ding ding ding

People have all kinds of preferences for what is attractive to them. The definition of race is "each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics." If a certain race has certain characteristics you're not attracted to then you're not attracted to that race, and that's completely fine.
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Can't help but wonder how many people are now trying to hide genuine dislike of a race behind "preferences".
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Dragonblade01 posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

You can recognize how racism in the context of a culture as a whole can (and almost undoubtedly will) affect some aspects of the civilization's thoughts, beliefs, preferences, etc.

However, calling an individual a "racist" for this reason is ridiculous. Because if someone is a racist for being influenced by a historically and/or currently racist culture, then all members of that culture are inherently racist and the word loses any explanatory power regarding individuals.

"OKAY FINE, it's racism, but can we please call it something nicer?"

How you managed to pull that from what I said is anyone's guess.

Given what you wrote in the first place I'm really not surprised you don't get it
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

You can recognize how racism in the context of a culture as a whole can (and almost undoubtedly will) affect some aspects of the civilization's thoughts, beliefs, preferences, etc.

However, calling an individual a "racist" for this reason is ridiculous. Because if someone is a racist for being influenced by a historically and/or currently racist culture, then all members of that culture are inherently racist and the word loses any explanatory power regarding individuals.

"OKAY FINE, it's racism, but can we please call it something nicer?"

How you managed to pull that from what I said is anyone's guess.

Given what you wrote in the first place I'm really not surprised you don't get it

You're right. I don't understand why some people are so desperate to call people racist when it's not appropriate.

Do you find it sexist when a man says he's not attracted to other men? After all, they haven't met every man in the world. And certainly not every man looks the same. Maybe they just haven't met the man they would be attracted to? So shouldn't they also be sexist?

Or are you going to ask for special pleading for that?

Dragonblade01 posted...

You can recognize how racism in the context of a culture as a whole can (and almost undoubtedly will) affect some aspects of the civilization's thoughts, beliefs, preferences, etc.

However, calling an individual a "racist" for this reason is ridiculous. Because if someone is a racist for being influenced by a historically and/or currently racist culture, then all members of that culture are inherently racist and the word loses any explanatory power regarding individuals.

Can you give an example of what you're talking about?
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I mean, you weren't wrong about the whole years of society leading to racism, etc, this is just how people are raised.

You were wrong when you started saying "Is there even a point in calling it racism?" to which I point to your own answer: "At that point everything is inherently racist."

Basically I'm challenging your notion that everything being racist means we have to find new words for it

instead of you know

calling it racism
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Sphyx posted...

Can't help but wonder how many people are now trying to hide genuine dislike of a race behind "preferences".

I'd imagine none.YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Basically I'm challenging your notion that everything being racist means we have to find new words for it

You take the power out of the word and make it meaningless when you use it irresponsibly like that. If you're saying anything that has to do with race is racist or an example of racism, well you're not only wrong but you're normalizing actual racism. If not being attracted to Jewish girls and wanting to exterminate the Jewish race are defined by the exact same word, well you're obviously doing something wrong.
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nicklebro posted...

I'd imagine none.

You lack imagination.
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emblem boy posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

You can recognize how racism in the context of a culture as a whole can (and almost undoubtedly will) affect some aspects of the civilization's thoughts, beliefs, preferences, etc.

However, calling an individual a "racist" for this reason is ridiculous. Because if someone is a racist for being influenced by a historically and/or currently racist culture, then all members of that culture are inherently racist and the word loses any explanatory power regarding individuals.

Can you give an example of what you're talking about?

Of culture influencing things like attraction? A part of the reason why black people frequently score low on the attractiveness scale (especially among certain demographics in places like America) is due to a lingering influence of the days when black slaves were frequently described as ugly. As a result, even though many people wouldn't say that black people are ugly today, features common in those descended from Africa seem to have become associated with unattractiveness. And those standards of attractiveness carry over unaware through media (since they obviously aren't specifically saying that black people are ugly, only affirming what is considered "attractive" to the masses)

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

I mean, you weren't wrong about the whole years of society leading to racism, etc, this is just how people are raised.

You were wrong when you started saying "Is there even a point in calling it racism?" to which I point to your own answer: "At that point everything is inherently racist."

Basically I'm challenging your notion that everything being racist means we have to find new words for it

instead of you know

calling it racism

I have a problem with calling individuals racist for thoughts not explicitly driven on a notion that one race is superior/inferior to another, thereby lumping those individuals in with the people who do. I have a problem with conflating a feature of culture with any given individual. And I don't think it's useful to use the same word to describe someone not attracted to a race that you would a member of the KKK.

Sphyx posted...

nicklebro posted...

I'd imagine none.

You lack imagination.

Can you explain how thatd even happen? I mean if someone is racist, I can't imagine the only way itd show itself is in their dating habits. So can you actually explain what you're alleging or were you just throwing out random shit to see what sticks?
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Of culture influencing things like attraction? A part of the reason why black people frequently score low on the attractiveness scale (especially among certain demographics in places like America) is due to a lingering influence of the days when black slaves were frequently described as ugly. As a result, even though many people wouldn't say that black people are ugly today, features common in those descended from Africa seem to have become associated with unattractiveness. And those standards of attractiveness carry over unaware through media (since they obviously aren't specifically saying that black people are ugly, only affirming what is considered "attractive" to the masses)

Nvm, I didn't realize you were talking about this topic in your post. Thought you meant something else.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Of culture influencing things like attraction? A part of the reason why black people frequently score low on the attractiveness scale (especially among certain demographics in places like America) is due to a lingering influence of the days when black slaves were frequently described as ugly. As a result, even though many people wouldn't say that black people are ugly today, features common in those descended from Africa seem to have become associated with unattractiveness. And those standards of attractiveness carry over unaware through media (since they obviously aren't specifically saying that black people are ugly, only affirming what is considered "attractive" to the masses)

I don't see.how this makes sense at all, let alone should be considered an objective fact. It seems much more likely that black women are considered less attractive than white women is because they're a minority and people in general are more likely to.be attracted to their own race. Of course this doesn't mean everyone is attracted to their own race, and I know there be at least one stupid poster whod force me to say that so I'll just say it now. I don't think culture determines what is considered attractive to men nearly as much as they're insinuating. I think what men are attracted to affects culture far more. Now maybe for women that's a bit different idk. But for men? We couldn't care less what a magazine considers to be beautiful.

Dragonblade01 posted...

And I don't think it's useful to use the same word to describe someone not attracted to a race that you would a member of the KKK.

Exactly the point I made. People don't like to acknowledge that language isn't an objective and solid thing, it's a fluid subjective tool that we use to communicate. So just because a word is defined a certain way in the dictionary doesn't mean that we must adhere to a that rigid definition when it begins to contradict our understanding of the word. Words change when we need them to and new words emerge when they become useful to us. But these things happen organically. If they dont happen the. They obviously weren't useful enough. It's why I hate the laws about compelled speech that forces you to use a trans persons preferred pronoun when that pronoun is a completely made up word. If that word was truly useful, it'd become part of the language naturally. Making a law for it is a massive mistake.
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nicklebro posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

Of culture influencing things like attraction? A part of the reason why black people frequently score low on the attractiveness scale (especially among certain demographics in places like America) is due to a lingering influence of the days when black slaves were frequently described as ugly. As a result, even though many people wouldn't say that black people are ugly today, features common in those descended from Africa seem to have become associated with unattractiveness. And those standards of attractiveness carry over unaware through media (since they obviously aren't specifically saying that black people are ugly, only affirming what is considered "attractive" to the masses)

I don't see.how this makes sense at all, let alone should be considered an objective fact. It seems much more likely that black women are considered less attractive than white women is because they're a minority and people in general are more likely to.be attracted to their own race. Of course this doesn't mean everyone is attracted to their own race, and I know there be at least one stupid poster whod force me to say that so I'll just say it now. I don't think culture determines what is considered attractive to men nearly as much as they're insinuating. I think what men are attracted to affects culture far more. Now maybe for women that's a bit different idk. But for men? We couldn't care less what a magazine considers to be beautiful.

I was careful to say it's a "part" of what influences us for a reason. Being attracted to one's own race is also common because, as mentioned, you and them are the same race. But it's painfully clear that what's considered attractive is influenced by a cultural concept of attractiveness. Men's preferences absolutely influence culture, but culture then turns around and reinforces established preferences. It's a two-way street, not one. And magazines aren't the only thing that we look at for examples of beauty (though I think it would be misguided to ignore their part in all of this as well).

nicklebro posted...

It's pretty self-explanatory.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

I was careful to say it's a "part" of what influences us for a reason. Being attracted to one's own race is also common because, as mentioned, you and them are the same race. But it's painfully clear that what's considered attractive is influenced by a cultural concept of attractiveness. Men's preferences absolutely influence culture, but culture then turns around and reinforces established preferences. It's a two-way street, not one. And magazines aren't the only thing that we look at for examples of beauty (though I think it would be misguided to ignore their part in all of this as well).

I don't see any reason to believe that that has a significant impact whatsoever. Again maybe for women it does, but I've never seen one stitch if evidence that culture has a significant impact in what men find attractive. Tho I've seen tons of assertions that it does. Just makes no sense to me that men would promote something that is less attractive than the alternative, whether they're racist or not. Hell it's a fact that interracial porn is watched heavily by racist men, so just think about what that means.

Sphyx posted...

nicklebro posted...

It's pretty self-explanatory.

So you can't? Lol cuz people use this excuse all the time and no one has fallen for it for at least a decade.

I'm not even telling you to find real world examples of this happening man... I'm just telling you I give a rational explanation of how this could ever happen. It's no secret that there are racist men and women who won't date anyone of another race, but I'm asking how their racism would in any way be hidden by their excuse of preferring to date their own race. Most people dare within their own race...

But you don't seem all that interested in an actual debate. So I guess I'm not expecting much of a response from you.
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nicklebro posted...

So I guess I'm not expecting much of a response from you.

Sphyx posted...

You lack imagination.

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Oh well
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At best I find it very prejudice to just write off an entire race of people, at worst it's racist. There are attractive people of all races and ethnicities, that social conditioning is a motherfucker and people internalize that shit.
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Imagine not being at least 36 feet tall

Manlets, lmao, when will you learn?

Taharqa_ posted...

At best I find it very prejudice to just write off an entire race of people, at worst it's racist. There are attractive people of all races and ethnicities, that social conditioning is a motherfucker and people internalize that shit.

What's the difference between very prejudiced and racist? And why is it wrong to not be attracted to a certain race? Maybe they'd just never seen someone of that race that was attractive. It's this inclination to paint everything as racism without even considering logical explanations that is causing the term "racist" to lose it's meaning.

No admittedly it's be pretty outrageous to have never seen an attractive member of any of the plethora of races there are, I mean watching one miss universe contest will end that, but it definitely could and probably has, and hell probably will happen. So why consider all of those people racists without knowing if they actually are racist?
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nicklebro posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

I was careful to say it's a "part" of what influences us for a reason. Being attracted to one's own race is also common because, as mentioned, you and them are the same race. But it's painfully clear that what's considered attractive is influenced by a cultural concept of attractiveness. Men's preferences absolutely influence culture, but culture then turns around and reinforces established preferences. It's a two-way street, not one. And magazines aren't the only thing that we look at for examples of beauty (though I think it would be misguided to ignore their part in all of this as well).

I don't see any reason to believe that that has a significant impact whatsoever. Again maybe for women it does, but I've never seen one stitch if evidence that culture has a significant impact in what men find attractive. Tho I've seen tons of assertions that it does. Just makes no sense to me that men would promote something that is less attractive than the alternative, whether they're racist or not. Hell it's a fact that interracial porn is watched heavily by racist men, so just think about what that means.

Where do our preferences come from?

Dragonblade01 posted...

Where do our preferences come from?

If you have a point to make, just make it. Don't ask me a question in order to set up whatever your argument is. Where I believe opinions come from should be irrelevant if you're going to be making an argument based on facts, and if your argument is based on assumptions and opinions, then just say that from the beginning.
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nicklebro posted...

Taharqa_ posted...

At best I find it very prejudice to just write off an entire race of people, at worst it's racist. There are attractive people of all races and ethnicities, that social conditioning is a motherfucker and people internalize that shit.

What's the difference between very prejudiced and racist? And why is it wrong to not be attracted to a certain race? Maybe they'd just never seen someone of that race that was attractive. It's this inclination to paint everything as racism without even considering logical explanations that is causing the term "racist" to lose it's meaning.

No admittedly it's be pretty outrageous to have never seen an attractive member of any of the plethora of races there are, I mean watching one miss universe contest will end that, but it definitely could and probably has, and hell probably will happen. So why consider all of those people racists without knowing if they actually are racist?

It's the type of reasoning that I see some people give and a lot of it tends to be prejudiced based on stereotypes, unconscious bias (which we all are susceptible to) and some of it IS racist in that they believe certain features are inferior, lets not pussyfoot around it (yes there are racists among us).

It's not inherently wrong to gravitate to your own people because that's who you may have the most contact with if you're a member of the majority. I just find it odd in this day and age of media and the internet that a person can't find a member of another race or ethnicity that they find attractive. I get a chuckle sometimes on this board when someone posts a pic of a black woman and they'll be a user go "Well she's not really fully black.". It's difficult for a society to wash off centuries of social conditioning, it is getting much better in recent decades.
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Taharqa_ posted...

It's the type of reasoning that I see some people give and a lot of it tends to be prejudiced based on stereotypes, unconscious bias (which we all are susceptible to) and some of it IS racist in that they believe certain features are inferior, lets not pussyfoot around it (yes there are racists among us).

Well first I don't believe unconscious bias is a real thing, there's no scientific data to support it nor do the tests they use to supposedly detect it show any kind of consistency whatsoever. But I've already acknowledged there are racists who refuse to date someone because of their skin color, no one is denying that. But you said "at best" it's very prejudiced, as in there's not one single person who has a justifiable reason for holding that opinion. That's wrong man.

Taharqa_ posted...

It's not inherently wrong to gravitate to your own people because that's who you may have the most contact with if you're a member of the majority. I just find it odd in this day and age of media and the internet that a person can't find a member of another race or ethnicity that they find attractive. I get a chuckle sometimes on this board when someone posts a pic of a black woman and they'll be a user go "Well she's not really fully black.". It's difficult for a society to wash off centuries of social conditioning, it is getting much better in recent decades.

It is odd, but it isn't impossible. And hell, it's probably common in some areas of America, let alone the rest of the world.

That's all I was getting at man. Your scale went from "very prejudiced" to "racist" which basically mean the exact same thing. There's no room left for anyone to hold that opinion for any justifiable reason.
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nicklebro posted...

Taharqa_ posted...

It's the type of reasoning that I see some people give and a lot of it tends to be prejudiced based on stereotypes, unconscious bias (which we all are susceptible to) and some of it IS racist in that they believe certain features are inferior, lets not pussyfoot around it (yes there are racists among us).

Well first I don't believe unconscious bias is a real thing, there's no scientific data to support it nor do the tests they use to supposedly detect it show any kind of consistency whatsoever. But I've already acknowledged there are racists who refuse to date someone because of their skin color, no one is denying that. But you said "at best" it's very prejudiced, as in there's not one single person who has a justifiable reason for holding that opinion. That's wrong man.

Taharqa_ posted...

It's not inherently wrong to gravitate to your own people because that's who you may have the most contact with if you're a member of the majority. I just find it odd in this day and age of media and the internet that a person can't find a member of another race or ethnicity that they find attractive. I get a chuckle sometimes on this board when someone posts a pic of a black woman and they'll be a user go "Well she's not really fully black.". It's difficult for a society to wash off centuries of social conditioning, it is getting much better in recent decades.

It is odd, but it isn't impossible. And hell, it's probably common in some areas of America, let alone the rest of the world.

That's all I was getting at man. Your scale went from "very prejudiced" to "racist" which basically mean the exact same thing. There's no room left for anyone to hold that opinion for any justifiable reason.

I view racial prejudice as a bit worse than not picking the fat, slow guy in a pickup basketball game. And to be honest it would cause me to look at a person side eyed if they expressed those views because then I would want to know why to find out if it's coming from a more sinister place.
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Taharqa_ posted...

I view racial prejudice as a bit worse than not picking the fat, slow guy in a pickup basketball game. And to be honest it would cause me to look at a person side eyed if they expressed those views because then I would want to know why to find out if it's coming from a more sinister place.

Racial prejudice is racism though. You're still not acknowledging that you're judging people based on your own preconceived notions. Sound ironic yet? Cuz it is.
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nicklebro posted...

Racial prejudice is racism though. You're still not acknowledging that you're judging people based on your own preconceived notions. Sound ironic yet? Cuz it is.

No it isn't, although racism, prejudice and stereotypes can overlap. Racial prejudice come from race based stereotypes. Thinking all black people live in the hood or all Asian people are somehow foreign is prejudiced, not necessarily racist, it could come from a place of ignorance or curiosity (or both in the latter) rather than out and out racism. Thinking that all members of a certain race have certain features or they're mixed if they don't is a form of racial prejudice (not necessarily racism) that I could chalk to ignorance.
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If you're categorically eliminating ethnicities from you're dating pool, you're probably a racist
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Taharqa_ posted...

nicklebro posted...

Racial prejudice is racism though. You're still not acknowledging that you're judging people based on your own preconceived notions. Sound ironic yet? Cuz it is.

No it isn't, although racism, prejudice and stereotypes can overlap. Racial prejudice come from race based stereotypes. Thinking all black people live in the hood or all Asian people are somehow foreign is prejudiced, not necessarily racist, it could come from a place of ignorance or curiosity (or both in the latter) rather than out and out racism. Thinking that all members of a certain race have certain features or they're mixed if they don't is a form of racial prejudice (not necessarily racism) that I could chalk to ignorance.

You're ignoring the actual point of the post man, and I really don't feel like playing this semantics game if you're not even going to acknowledge how hypocritical I proved your argument to be.

FrisbeeDude posted...

If you're categorically eliminating ethnicities from you're dating pool, you're probably a racist

Probably. Then again maybe youve just never seen an person of a certain race you found attractive, so you wouldn't be interested in dating any of them. Until you did meet one you found attractive anyways. Tho if you still refused to date her, yeah you're Almost definitely a racist.
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the fact that all of you are still operating as though you can confidently write off a whole race based on your limited experience
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

the fact that all of you are still operating as though you can confidently write off a whole race based on your limited experience

Yeah that's a stupid thing to assume. But not necessarily racist.
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nicklebro posted...

You're ignoring the actual point of the post man, and I really don't feel like playing this semantics game if you're not even going to acknowledge how hypocritical I proved your argument to be.

It's not semantics, I'm giving you examples. It's much more complex than you are trying to paint it as and it would take a wall of text to explain the difference between prejudice, stereotypes and actual racism and the ways they can overlap. Give me examples of my argument being hypocritical.
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Taharqa_ posted...

nicklebro posted...

You're ignoring the actual point of the post man, and I really don't feel like playing this semantics game if you're not even going to acknowledge how hypocritical I proved your argument to be.

It's not semantics, I'm giving you examples. It's much more complex than you are trying to paint it as and it would take a wall of text to explain the difference between prejudice, stereotypes and actual racism and the ways they can overlap. Give me examples of my argument being hypocritical.

It's definitely semantics, your examples were just highlighting that fact.

And this already did that:nicklebro posted...

You're still not acknowledging that you're judging people based on your own preconceived notions. Sound ironic yet? Cuz it is.

You're judging people based on your preconceived notions of what kinda person wouldn't be attracted to a certain race. Just like racists judge people on their preconceived notions of certain races.

Just just people individually, like you're telling other people to do, and don't judge people based on incomplete information, which you are doing.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

I have a problem with calling individuals racist for thoughts not explicitly driven on a notion that one race is superior/inferior to another, thereby lumping those individuals in with the people who do. I have a problem with conflating a feature of culture with any given individual. And I don't think it's useful to use the same word to describe someone not attracted to a race that you would a member of the KKK.

racism is not only defined by believing your race is superior. that's simplistic
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When I was younger I would have seen it as racist, but thinking on it later it's the same thing as not dating people with other physical characteristics you don't find attractive.
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This an exciting and new topic for CE
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nicklebro posted...

Taharqa_ posted...

nicklebro posted...

You're ignoring the actual point of the post man, and I really don't feel like playing this semantics game if you're not even going to acknowledge how hypocritical I proved your argument to be.

It's not semantics, I'm giving you examples. It's much more complex than you are trying to paint it as and it would take a wall of text to explain the difference between prejudice, stereotypes and actual racism and the ways they can overlap. Give me examples of my argument being hypocritical.

It's definitely semantics, your examples were just highlighting that fact.

And this already did that:nicklebro posted...

You're still not acknowledging that you're judging people based on your own preconceived notions. Sound ironic yet? Cuz it is.

You're judging people based on your preconceived notions of what kinda person wouldn't be attracted to a certain race. Just like racists judge people on their preconceived notions of certain races.

Just just people individually, like you're telling other people to do, and don't judge people based on incomplete information, which you are doing.

I thought I was pretty clear in the last page that I said that I base my opinion on the type of reasoning that the person gives, on this board it's usually not pretty and is quite prejudiced. In real life I would want to understand that person's reasoning by asking questions. I even gave people who felt that way an out (i.e ignorance).
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averagejoel posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

I have a problem with calling individuals racist for thoughts not explicitly driven on a notion that one race is superior/inferior to another, thereby lumping those individuals in with the people who do. I have a problem with conflating a feature of culture with any given individual. And I don't think it's useful to use the same word to describe someone not attracted to a race that you would a member of the KKK.

racism is not only defined by believing your race is superior. that's simplistic

I didn't say that it was. But on an individual level, the term "racist" refers to explicit and willful behavior.

nicklebro posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

Where do our preferences come from?

If you have a point to make, just make it. Don't ask me a question in order to set up whatever your argument is. Where I believe opinions come from should be irrelevant if you're going to be making an argument based on facts, and if your argument is based on assumptions and opinions, then just say that from the beginning.

Excuse me, you're the person who thinks men's preference aren't influenced by society. I want to know where you think they come from.

Taharqa_ posted...

I thought I was pretty clear in the last page that I said that I base my opinion on the type of reasoning that the person gives, on this board it's usually not pretty and is quite prejudiced. In real life I would want to understand that person's reasoning by asking questions. I even gave people who felt that way an out (i.e ignorance).

So you admit you misspoke when you said that at best it was "very prejudiced". Then we're all good. Of course ignorance is a solid reasoning as well, plus there may be people who actually flat out just don't prefer a certain race for purely subjective reasons, but I won't go so far as to argue that's a fact.

FYI, in the future, no one really cares what arguments you've personally heard from other people or posters. Anecdotal evidence is considered to be exactly nothing here.

Dragonblade01 posted...

Excuse me, you're the person who thinks men's preference aren't influenced by society. I want to know where you think they come from.

I didn't say they weren't influenced at all, I said they weren't substantially influenced. And the reason is because there's no evidence to suggest they are. In order to argue that what men consider to be attractive is heavily influenced by societal conditioning you have to at least provide some proof of that. The burden of proof is on you since it isn't self evident. Plus I can show that what men are attracted to affects our culture more than the other way around. Men liked big butts long before sir mix alot,and that's actually contradicting what most social conditioning was telling us,which was far more focused on skinny girls that are in fashion shows and magazines. That's why I made the caveat that maybe women are affected to that degree, idk, but there's no reason to believe that mens sexual preferences are largely determined by societal influences.

EDIT:. And again, it doesnt matter where I think they come from. You're the one that claimed to know one of their majority influences. I challenged you on that assertion and you have not only failed to even attempt to defend it, but are now resorting to deflection.
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No, I didn't misspeak on anything, I said what I said. You're fixating on the "very prejudice" line, IMO it is.
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nicklebro posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

Excuse me, you're the person who thinks men's preference aren't influenced by society. I want to know where you think they come from.

I didn't say they weren't influenced at all, I said they weren't substantially influenced. And the reason is because there's no evidence to suggest they are. In order to argue that what men consider to be attractive is heavily influenced by societal conditioning you have to at least provide some proof of that. The burden of proof is on you since it isn't self evident. Plus I can show that what men are attracted to affects our culture more than the other way around. Men liked big butts long before sir mix alot,and that's actually contradicting what most social conditioning was telling us,which was far more focused on skinny girls that are in fashion shows and magazines. That's why I made the caveat that maybe women are affected to that degree, idk, but there's no reason to believe that mens sexual preferences are largely determined by societal influences.

EDIT:. And again, it doesnt matter where I think they come from. You're the one that claimed to know one of their majority influences. I challenged you on that assertion and you have not only failed to even attempt to defend it, but are now resorting to deflection.

Don't presume to know why I asked the question. I was curious because it's bizarre to me that you would think social conditioning is not a marked influence for men but is for women. I don't need you projecting onto me.

Furthermore, what you see as evidence that men's preferences aren't being culturally influenced, I see as the exact opposite. The changes in what is and isn't considered attractive, switching from petite to "thicc." From the chubbier models of the days of renaissance painting to the days where skinny was best. Long hair and short. Blond vs brunette. The fetishizing of Latino and Asian women. The changes in these trends over time should make it more clear than anything else of the impact that culture has over those who live within it.

And, again, it's a two-way street. That's the way culture has always been. For everything. It's quite frankly peculiar that this particular facet is unbelievable to you.

Taharqa_ posted...

No, I didn't misspeak on anything, I said what I said. You're fixating on the "very prejudice" line, IMO it is.

So innocent ignorance or even legitimate preference are somehow worse than extreme prejudice?

Dragonblade01 posted...

Don't presume to know why I asked the question. I was curious because it's bizarre to me that you would think social conditioning is not a marked influence for men but is for women. I don't need you projecting onto me.

Furthermore, what you see as evidence that men's preferences aren't being culturally influenced, I see as the exact opposite. The changes in what is and isn't considered attractive, switching from petite to "thicc." From the chubbier models of the days of renaissance painting to the days where skinny was best. Long hair and short. Blond vs brunette. The fetishizing of Latino and Asian women. The changes in these trends over time should make it more clear than anything else of the impact that culture has over those who live within it.

And, again, it's a two-way street. That's the way culture has always been. For everything. It's quite frankly peculiar that this particular facet is unbelievable to you.

I didn't say it definitely is for women, k said I could see that argument being made since it appears to be self evident, as opposed to not being for men.

And you're again not actually pointing to any actual facts, just your own interpretation and assumptions. In fact the it legitimate change in what men considered to be attractive that you listed (the weight difference) proves that it's mens actual preferences that affect our culture rather than the other way around. Across the world and throughout history mens preferences have mirrored the economic realities that that were living in rather than mirroring what society told them was attractive. When the majority of the population were basically peasants, being fat was attractive because it showed you had the economic ability to indulge when most people we're struggling. This was true for ancient Hawaiians too (and I'm sure many other cultures, I'm just born and raised in Hawaii so they're the ones I'm familiar with). Obviously ancient Hawaiians weren't affected by social construction, and their preferences matched those of other cultures in similar economic standings.

So even if we just ignore that there's no evidence to back up your claims, just think about it logically. Why would a culture advertise something as being the Pinnacle of attractiveness if it wasn't? And why would men alter their preferences so that that were chasing something that they person you viewed as less attractive? That just makes no sense at all, and coupled with there being 0 reason to believe it, I don't see how you can push it as a fact.

Now for Another note about women. I don't believe that society and media tells them what to be attracted to, but rather what they should do to be attractive to men. It's where that stick thin figure started becoming popular despite men largely preferring curves. But that's not meaningful to this discussion.
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"Being afraid of Black people isn't racist. The only reason I cross the street when I see a young black man walking towards me is because dark brown colors frighten me, and definitely has nothing to do with cultural stereotypes that have deeply rooted themself in my way of thinking and of which I have no interest in confronting nor even acknowledging as wrong."
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Pogo_Marimo posted...

"Being afraid of Black people isn't racist. The only reason I cross the street when I see a young black man walking towards me is because dark brown colors frighten me, and definitely has nothing to do with cultural stereotypes that have deeply rooted themself in my way of thinking and of which I have no interest in confronting nor even acknowledging as wrong."

Lol who said that?
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Sphyx posted...

GS4Life posted...

Ehhhh I mean having preference is not necessarily racist but outright refusing to dated someone because of their skin is.

faizan_faizan posted...

It is certainly stupid. Dismissing an entire people of a certain race makes no sense.

@faizan_faizan @GS4Life @Sphyx any of you mind elaborating? If I'm not sexually attracted to white people as a whole, why would I date them? How am I racist if it simply isn't my preference? My dick isn't going to work if in not sexually attracted to the person. Sex is a big part of a relationship. How would this work?

Edit- I messed up the quotes here and idk how to fix it

Conflict posted...

You have not seen every white person on the planet. Or black person, etc. Races tend to be pretty diverse

Absolutely. And there is always exceptions to the rule, of course. No one is arguing that. but if you don't like black girls, or white girls, it's still a very safe thing for that person to say, and that person is not considered racist for it