Current Events > Do you believe more in the Great Man Theory or more social development theory?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory

Great man theory is basically that there is an exceptionally rare breed of (wo)men that bring all of society forward, sometimes kicking and screaming.

alternative to that is that ideas have a time they will come out based on a required level of social development and even if person that history remembers did not do what they did, the idea would surface soon regardless.

Like if Einstein didn't come up with the theory of relativity do you believe no one would have? Or if Henry Ford didn't exist would we be without the assembly line? Or is basically all of human development inevitable and the great men are just in the right place at the right time?
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People do things that affect history.

What an amazing theory.
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The second, imo.
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teepan95 posted...

The second, imo.

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Some from column A and some from column B.

Probably the latter if I had to pick one though. We focus a lot on great individuals but don't really hear about those around/behind them. There are instances where people have done great things single-handedly, but I'm more of a believer in there often being other people and other things involved too that we regularly fail to account for.

There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.

Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "Address to the Faculty"
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What about external factors? That doesn't see to be present in either, but immensely important.
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Darkman124 posted...

There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.

Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "Address to the Faculty"

So I guess how many of those true revolutionary leaps of genius have their been? I'm trying to understand if they truly existed. Like calculus was developed at the same time independently by 2 different people. Same with the theory of evolution and tons of other ground breaking theories and the likes. And few things have had the impact of calculus and the theory of evolution.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Nice snippet. I like that.

you should play sid meier's alpha centauri sometime

KILBOTz posted...

So I guess how many of those true revolutionary leaps of genius have their been?

a handful. calculus was developed independently, but newton invented calculus in order to model gravitational physics, and no one else did that.
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I believe firmly that history is primarily driven by the latter. It would be going too far to entirely discount powerful personages/geniuses/etc. but even they are primarily shaped and formed by the social forces of their times.
Put another way, some one who believes mostly or exclusively in Great Man Theory doesn't understand history.

so do you think gravitational physics would be one of those leaps or would someone else have done that once calculus was available, newton just happened to be able to do both with the gravitational physics as his goal?

Darkman124 posted...

you should play sid meier's alpha centauri sometime

I never considered myself a graphics whore but a year or two ago I got it on your suggestion and wow that's an ugly game.
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KILBOTz posted...

alternative to that is that ideas have a time they will come out based on a required level of social development and even if person that history remembers did not do what they did, the idea would surface soon regardless.

This is what I believe, but only for social issues. What people as a whole want will happen, this is why I put close to no value on a political candidate's stance on social issues. For science/research I feel "necessity is the mother of invention" is a very apt saying.
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Loghain posted...

teepan95 posted...

The second, imo.

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KILBOTz posted...

so do you think gravitational physics would be one of those leaps or would someone else have done that once calculus was available, newton just happened to be able to do both with the gravitational physics as his goal?

Darkman124 posted...

you should play sid meier's alpha centauri sometime

I never considered myself a graphics whore but a year or two ago I got it on your suggestion and wow that's an ugly game.

i tend to think that gravitational physics was one of the big leaps. it worked twofold. it spurred him to invent and use calculus, thereby cementing it as a mathematical tool.

gravity is one of the pillars of a modern physics education, alongside electromagnetism and quantum mechanics, so it's tough not to view it as one of those great leaps.
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There's mix of both, i think.
In one hand, had Hitler not appeared, it's possible someone else would.

But on the other, without Caesar and His ambitions, Gaul might have remained unconquered for much longer.

Then you have to consider that the social trends influence and shape the Great Men, but also the Great Men influence and shape the social trends, so the borders between the two aren't always clear
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The latter. Most great leaps are surrounded by other brilliantly minded people who are working on similar topics, just slower. Even some of the great advances, like Einsteins Special and General Relativity, were far from perfect and required revisions to mold them for raw brilliance to consistent theory.
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Darkman124 posted...

KILBOTz posted...

so do you think gravitational physics would be one of those leaps or would someone else have done that once calculus was available, newton just happened to be able to do both with the gravitational physics as his goal?

Darkman124 posted...

you should play sid meier's alpha centauri sometime

I never considered myself a graphics whore but a year or two ago I got it on your suggestion and wow that's an ugly game.

i tend to think that gravitational physics was one of the big leaps. it worked twofold. it spurred him to invent and use calculus, thereby cementing it as a mathematical tool.

gravity is one of the pillars of a modern physics education, alongside electromagnetism and quantum mechanics, so it's tough not to view it as one of those great leaps.

They are giant ideas for sure, but like quantum mechanics, it's possible it is just so foreign to me that I have a kindergarteners understanding of it, but it doesn't feel like its been singular geniuses that have developed it, rather a giant science by committee type deal, whereas to me leaps feel like they require unique geniuses that if not for them we would be set back generations.

and my knowledge of the history of things like gravitational physics or electromagnetism are pretty much only as much deep as various science popularists tell me about it on TV.
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I think those people who come up with genius ideas are ahead of their time. Without them, we'd get there eventually, but it may not be for decades.

Don't know which that falls under.
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people do things because of experiences theyve had
not many people do things solely on their own including financial backing and everything related

i don't think there are great people who advance society on their own, and i don't believe inventions would've eventually been created identically by someone else.

people don't do things alone and things are made a certain way because it was thought of a certain way through experiences. unless those experiences are exactly the same, the inventions wouldn't be.
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KILBOTz posted...

They are giant ideas for sure, but like quantum mechanics, it's possible it is just so foreign to me that I have a kindergarteners understanding of it, but it doesn't feel like its been singular geniuses that have developed it, rather a giant science by committee type deal, whereas to me leaps feel like they require unique geniuses that if not for them we would be set back generations.

and my knowledge of the history of things like gravitational physics or electromagnetism are pretty much only as much deep as various science popularists tell me about it on TV.

the development of modern physics has been a combination. one great man would form the foundation theory that then saw incremental development and improvements on.

quantum required several great men.
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