Board 8 > is there a right to health care?

(+) Yeah! (+)

SmartMuffin posted...

If I have a "right" to something, that means I can use force to obtain it and others are morally prevented from stopping me.

I assume you consider that all humans have a "right" to life. How then can that right this not extend to healthcare? If I have a right to life, surely you can't remove that right by refusing to operate on me.
---

SmartMuffin posted...

You don't have the right to free speech on my property. Nobody has ever tried to claim so.

Tons of people try to claim this all the time. It's essentially the whole argument of people that hate "PC culture".
---

SmartMuffin posted...

So if you get kicked out of a theater for talking through a movie, it's morally okay to use physical force to get back inside and talk more because you have the right to free speech?

You don't have the right to free speech on my property. Nobody has ever tried to claim so.

So then how is it possible to "enslave" doctors? The hospital is required to provide you care, but any punishment for an individual doctor not doing so is up to the staff. Nothing in a "right to health care" says you have the right to personally enslave a doctor. Likewise, it would be illegal to use physical force on their property, as is obvious. So where's the problem come in, exactly?
---

Wait Muffin, if I'm starving and have no money, am I in your mind allowed to steal someone else's food to survive?
---

Terastodon posted...

Wait Muffin, if I'm starving and have no money, am I in your mind allowed to steal someone else's food to survive?

yes but that other person is allowed to shoot you for stealing their property
---

It is a right, and should be free at the point of use with all emergency and long-lasting treatments and conditions free as well. Effectively, the NHS.

Speaking of which I wonder how SmartMuffin would react if he knew that the NHS was founded by a workers' party. Almost like workers don't mind their work being freely available if they still get paid.
---

Lightning Strikes posted...

Speaking of which I wonder how SmartMuffin would react if he knew that the NHS was founded by a workers' party. Almost like workers don't mind their work being freely available if they still get paid.

he'd probably say they're vile socialists and should all be put to death
---

Terastodon posted...

Wait Muffin, if I'm starving and have no money, am I in your mind allowed to steal someone else's food to survive?

No.

Positive rights don't exist.

Your "right" to life only implies that nobody else can kill you. Not that you can steal from others. That's why it's called a right to "life" and not a right to food or medical care or whatever.
---

SmartMuffin posted...

Your "right" to life only implies that nobody else can kill you.

Who gets to define what counts as killing?
---

What would you say then are the rights all people hold?
---

Terastodon posted...

What would you say then are the rights all people hold?

The right to own your own body and the right to property. That's pretty much it, everything else is a logical extension of those.
---

i finished my paper you can all stop posting
---

Out of curiosity how do you enforce these basic rights?

Like you can't have anybody whose job it is to enforce this, because otherwise you are owning their labor. So all you can really do is privatize it and hope you aren't poor, or hope someone will help you out because your basic rights mean nothing.
---

I strongly believe in universal health care. It's one of the most important services a government should even be there for.

If something life endangering happens to you, you should be able to seek medical aid without fear of it ruining your life financially or some other way.

The idea that if you suffer some kind of medical crisis in the US, you are faced with the dilemma of potentially owing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars if you go the hospital is insane. Like how is that possibly the state of affairs there?

If you are literally dying it's not a choice at all. The whole process makes no sense to me.
---

Colegreen_c12 posted...

Out of curiosity how do you enforce these basic rights?

Like you can't have anybody whose job it is to enforce this, because otherwise you are owning their labor. So all you can really do is privatize it and hope you aren't poor, or hope someone will help you out because your basic rights mean nothing.

Just wondering, how many times have you paid up front for your healthcare?
---

But Muffin, in a society where it's understood that being a healthcare provider meant that you will sometimes serve those who can't pay, nobody would make the choice to enter that field without agreeing to donate their own work.

In that society, universal healthcare can't be considered slavery.
---

My favourite thing about this topic is the fact that SmartMuffin doesn't know the difference between slavery and volunteering.
---

So there are certain skills that you're only allowed to learn if you're willing to submit yourself to slavery?

That sounds pretty fucked up to me.

Go back to the desert island example. I have a small, minor, working knowledge of first aid. You hurt yourself. Can you force me to treat your wounds?
---

Again, that's a hilarious definition of slavery.

Voluntarily taking an oath to treat anybody who needs it is not slavery in the slightest.

Edit: Also, I'm assuming "right to your own body" includes right to life, even if it's only not being killed. But there are cases where indirectly leading to somebody's preventable death would be considered manslaughter. So surely, we must provide people with the care they need or we are effectively killing them.
---

Living in a society run by Muffin would be terrifying.
---

Can you actually call it society tho
---

asking if a "right" exists is a silly question

rights are abstract concepts. 'people have different rights under different rulesets' is the only valid answer
---

SmartMuffin posted...

Go back to the desert island example. I have a small, minor, working knowledge of first aid. You hurt yourself. Can you force me to treat your wounds?

is your only argument against universal healthcare "i want to be able to behave like a sociopath with no negative repercussions"?
---

is your only argument against universal healthcare "i want to be able to behave like a sociopath with no negative repercussions"?

Not wanting to be a slave makes someone a sociopath?
---

SmartMuffin posted...

is your only argument against universal healthcare "i want to be able to behave like a sociopath with no negative repercussions"?

Not wanting to be a slave makes someone a sociopath?

No, but being in a situation where:

a) Someone gets hurt
b) You're the only other person around
c) You have medical training, and
d) You would even consider not helping the other person

makes you at the very least a dick.
---

Plus in MOST scenarios beyond the standard "Is there a doctor in the house?!" situation, you're not a slave as you're being paid to do your job.
---

No, but being in a situation where:

a) Someone gets hurt
b) You're the only other person around
c) You have medical training, and
d) You would even consider not helping the other person

makes you at the very least a dick.

Of course I would consider it. But ultimately, it is my decision to make. My right to my own body is paramount, therefore nobody else can have any sort of "right" that overrides this.

By saying you have a "right" to medical care, you are saying that the other person has the decision, and that it is acceptable for them to force me to provide care, even if I don't want to. This is unacceptable.
---

I'd say you have a moral obligation to help, personally. Just like Spiderman.
---

Smuffin reminds me of a friend of mine, who even if he planned on doing it before, will refuse to do something if you tell him he should do it.
---

I feel like Muffin is missing the point that in a world with universal healthcare, all doctors would be paid by the government.
---

Terastodon posted...

I feel like Muffin is missing the point that in a world with universal healthcare, all doctors would be paid by the government.

What if the government couldn't find enough doctors willing to work for what they wanted to pay?
---

SmartMuffin posted...

Terastodon posted...

I feel like Muffin is missing the point that in a world with universal healthcare, all doctors would be paid by the government.

What if the government couldn't find enough doctors willing to work for what they wanted to pay?

Pay more. Quite straightforward...
---

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Colegreen_c12 posted...

Out of curiosity how do you enforce these basic rights?

Like you can't have anybody whose job it is to enforce this, because otherwise you are owning their labor. So all you can really do is privatize it and hope you aren't poor, or hope someone will help you out because your basic rights mean nothing.

Just wondering, how many times have you paid up front for your healthcare?

I meant for that question to be specifically targeted towards SmartMuffin but he hasn't seemed to answer yet.
---

I have never obtained healthcare through any means other than voluntary trade for mutual benefit.
---

SmartMuffin posted...

I have never obtained healthcare through any means other than voluntary trade for mutual benefit.

Did you ask every provider who treated you while you were in the military if they wanted to treat you?

Whatd you give them in return?
---