Current Events > Why do the Avengers get so much shit in Civil War for the casualties?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Like fuck dude, if we don't stop Ultron then the whole world explodes, not just a few thousand in Sokovia (which, yes, Ultron was ultimately Stark's fault from the beginning, but still).

But in Avengers 1? Nope, Loki takes over the world and everyone dies. Avengers stop that, and yeah people died and NY got shit on, but they still saved the world.

What up
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Ultron was ultimately Stark's fault

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Because BvS was coming out and they had to make up shit for a Civil War movie.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

Ultron was ultimately Stark's fault

I get that but

It doesn't explain Avengers 1 or DC in Winter Soldier (which I never actually saw so I don't know if DC getting blown up was Avengers fault or not)
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For that overdone degree of realism, I guess.
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Heroes banding together to fight of invasion they had no hand in
vs
Heroes banding together to fight a threat their most prolific member/weapons designer was entirely responsible for along with their most virtuous member covering for a known assassin working for an organisation that was recently exposed in trying to kill millions of people

Really?
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really instead of focusing on the casualties they should have focused on the fact that the team just decides what problems they want to handle. like we know that they're the good guys but if they were real you'd want some kind of oversight on them
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Remember when they were going to nuke New York
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fusespliff posted...

Heroes banding together to fight of invasion they had no hand in
vs
Heroes banding together to fight a threat their most prolific member/weapons designer was entirely responsible for along with their most virtuous member covering for a known assassin working for an organisation that was recently exposed in trying to kill millions of people

Really?

Okay fine ignore Ultron then, that's why I said that in the OP.

But they still get shit for NY too.

kuwab0 posted...

Remember when they were going to nuke New York

Nuking New York still >>>> human extinction
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Honestly, terrible hamfisted writing.
They wouldn't get shit from the general population unless they were incredibly cavalier with the exact details of the events, which given how secret SHIELD was, I doubt it.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

fusespliff posted...

Heroes banding together to fight of invasion they had no hand in
vs
Heroes banding together to fight a threat their most prolific member/weapons designer was entirely responsible for along with their most virtuous member covering for a known assassin working for an organisation that was recently exposed in trying to kill millions of people

Really?

Okay fine ignore Ultron then, that's why I said that in the OP.

But they still get shit for NY too.

That's the age old chicken and egg paradox. It's something that regularly pops up in comics.
Did the Avengers stop a threat that was always going to happen? Or did the invasion happen because of superpowered beings suddenly popping up all over?

I mean, I sure as hell didn't see any giant portals in the sky before that damn Banner went around tossing tanks and using cars as boxing gloves!!! /regularjoe
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I mean there's possibly an argument in Avengers 1, with Loki's plan being to unleash the Hulk showing that the Avengers had a member that they couldn't really control.

Idk.
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fusespliff posted...

Did the Avengers stop a threat that was always going to happen? Or did the invasion happen because of superpowered beings suddenly popping up all over?

Yeah I have Civil War on and Vision just made his line about the potential causality, but my rebuttal is like, what are they supposed to do now? Even if they agreed that their very existence "invites challenge," what are they supposed to do, just, stop existing and hope nobody else decides to attack? Not gonna happen. Because ultimately you get shit like Dormammu too, who didn't give a flying fuck about the Avengers. He just wanted Earth.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Dormammu

Or Ego, or even Loki because he initially only attacked Earth because Thor was went against his will anyways.
Or any number of Chitauri tech based villains now. Vision was a fucking moron there.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

fusespliff posted...

Did the Avengers stop a threat that was always going to happen? Or did the invasion happen because of superpowered beings suddenly popping up all over?

Yeah I have Civil War on and Vision just made his line about the potential causality, but my rebuttal is like, what are they supposed to do now? Even if they agreed that their very existence "invites challenge," what are they supposed to do, just, stop existing and hope nobody else decides to attack? Not gonna happen. Because ultimately you get shit like Dormammu too, who didn't give a flying fuck about the Avengers. He just wanted Earth.

True, but the general public in-universe doesn't know about things like Dormammu or even Red Skull. They want a scapegoat for their losses and inconveniences and the Avengers are public figures who always seem in the center of things. Normal people just want go about their normal lives.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

They wouldn't get shit from the general population unless they were incredibly cavalier with the exact details of the events, which given how secret SHIELD was, I doubt it.

this isn't true, just look at how people reacted to trump and puerto rico. he did above and beyond to help those people and yet they still complained and complained
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

Dormammu

Or Ego, or even Loki because he initially only attacked Earth because Thor was went against his will anyways.
Or any number of Chitauri tech based villains now. Vision was a fucking moron there.

2 out of your 3 examples are direct consequences of an Avenger's actions. Like you said Loki attacked Earth because of Thor. Which lead to the invasion. Which led to the Chitauri tech based villains.
Those are literal examples of "Hero creates villain"
Ego is yet another not a single person on Earth has any knowledge of. So how would he factor in Vision's statement or the population's opinion of the Avengers?
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It was a bullshit excuse to try and gain control of the Avengers.
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KillerSlaw posted...

It was a bullshit excuse to try and gain control of the Avengers.

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fusespliff posted...

direct consequences of an Avenger's actions

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Link43130 posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

They wouldn't get shit from the general population unless they were incredibly cavalier with the exact details of the events, which given how secret SHIELD was, I doubt it.

this isn't true, just look at how people reacted to trump and puerto rico. he did above and beyond to help those people and yet they still complained and complained

Above and beyond?
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prince_leo posted...

really instead of focusing on the casualties they should have focused on the fact that the team just decides what problems they want to handle. like we know that they're the good guys but if they were real you'd want some kind of oversight on them

We all know how well that works IRL. Look at how "effective" UN peacekeeping missions are -.-
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because its supposed to be based on the book and the premise in the book is that it happened because of a bunch of civil deaths, that and BvS was also out. But trust me it'll just be forgotten in the next movie anyway (It's already been pretty much forgotten in Homecoming)
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Akagami_Shanks posted...

because its supposed to be based on the book and the premise in the book is that it happened because of a bunch of civil deaths, that and BvS was also out. But trust me it'll just be forgotten in the next movie anyway (It's already been pretty much forgotten in Homecoming)

Homecoming has the gym teacher mentioning that Cap's probably a war criminal now.
The trailer for Infinity War shows Cap and Bucky have been granted sanctuary by Wakanda
So no, it hasn't been forgotten. It won't be a big thing anymore, but it's certainly still a thing
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Sativa_Rose posted...

We all know how well that works IRL. Look at how "effective" UN peacekeeping missions are -.-

oh I agree with you, but we also know how real world vigilantes work too
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fusespliff posted...

Akagami_Shanks posted...

because its supposed to be based on the book and the premise in the book is that it happened because of a bunch of civil deaths, that and BvS was also out. But trust me it'll just be forgotten in the next movie anyway (It's already been pretty much forgotten in Homecoming)

Homecoming has the gym teacher mentioning that Cap's probably a war criminal now.
The trailer for Infinity War shows Cap and Bucky have been granted sanctuary by Wakanda
So no, it hasn't been forgotten. It won't be a big thing anymore, but it's certainly still a thing

that wasnt surprisng.... i thought it was shown on civil war
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Even if we accept that argument, shouldn't Stark be the only one getting shit on? It's not like it was a committee decision.

prince_leo posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

We all know how well that works IRL. Look at how "effective" UN peacekeeping missions are -.-

oh I agree with you, but we also know how real world vigilantes work too

How many examples are there of real world vigilantes? The only time I have really heard about them in modern history is in Mexico with the like vigilante forces that have formed up to protect against the drug cartels. When you're in a place that fucked, I wouldn't blame you for feeling the need to defend yourself that way.

"Concerning nonviolence: it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks." - Malcolm X
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Dash_Harber posted...

Even if we accept that argument, shouldn't Stark be the only one getting shit on? It's not like it was a committee decision.

They don't know that.
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marc55 posted...

fusespliff posted...

Akagami_Shanks posted...

because its supposed to be based on the book and the premise in the book is that it happened because of a bunch of civil deaths, that and BvS was also out. But trust me it'll just be forgotten in the next movie anyway (It's already been pretty much forgotten in Homecoming)

Homecoming has the gym teacher mentioning that Cap's probably a war criminal now.
The trailer for Infinity War shows Cap and Bucky have been granted sanctuary by Wakanda
So no, it hasn't been forgotten. It won't be a big thing anymore, but it's certainly still a thing

that wasnt surprisng.... i thought it was shown on civil war

Oh yeah, it was in the after credits scene.

Sativa_Rose posted...

prince_leo posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

We all know how well that works IRL. Look at how "effective" UN peacekeeping missions are -.-

oh I agree with you, but we also know how real world vigilantes work too

How many examples are there of real world vigilantes?

https://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/10-legendary-real-life-vigilantes.html

https://people.howstuffworks.com/10-real--costumed-crime-fighters.htm

http://www.cracked.com/article_16612_6-real-life-vigilantes-crazier-than-batman.html
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dave_is_slick posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Even if we accept that argument, shouldn't Stark be the only one getting shit on? It's not like it was a committee decision.

They don't know that.

The people critical of the Avengers on these forums don't know that?

Dash_Harber posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Even if we accept that argument, shouldn't Stark be the only one getting shit on? It's not like it was a committee decision.

They don't know that.

The people critical of the Avengers on these forums don't know that?

The general public in the MCU doesn't know that.
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It's a children's movie. Don't take it so seriously.

It's because the avengers are predominately white males and sjws needed to use something to try and shit on them for it.
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it's because it was based on a different story from the comics, and they changed it for some reason. in the comics, it wasn't the avengers that did it, it was a group of minor heroes. like D list characters doing a reality show kinda like the show COPS. and while they were chasing a guy, he caused an explosion that nuked a neighborhood. Civil War gets alot of shit in the comics. but I think at least the opening part is done better than it was in the movie

Zikten posted...

it's because it was based on a different story from the comics, and they changed it for some reason. in the comics, it wasn't the avengers that did it, it was a group of minor heroes. like D list characters doing a reality show kinda like the show COPS. and while they were chasing a guy, he caused an explosion that nuked a neighborhood. Civil War gets alot of shit in the comics. but I think at least the opening part is done better than it was in the movie

The catalyst for Civil War in the comics was indeed a more straight forward thing. It's also the only thing the movie didn't vastly improve on
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The Ultron one was a legit point they made but the ones before it were incredibly stupid since, if the Avengers weren't there, the results would have been far worse and completely catastrophic. Like, the SHIELD thing isn't even fair since it wasn't the Avengers that caused that, it was the US Government who supported SHIELD...

And then Sakovia would have also had far worse ramifications if she hadn't acted at all.

So yeah, I always thought their way of explaining why they needed the accords in the filmverse were patently unfair... however, I do still agree that Superheroes would honestly need accountability. It works the comicverse that they don't because writers get to decide on morality and actions but in a real world perspective, there's no way the world would be able to tolerate super-powered beings with no accountability and unlimited jurisdiction.

fusespliff posted...

Zikten posted...

it's because it was based on a different story from the comics, and they changed it for some reason. in the comics, it wasn't the avengers that did it, it was a group of minor heroes. like D list characters doing a reality show kinda like the show COPS. and while they were chasing a guy, he caused an explosion that nuked a neighborhood. Civil War gets alot of shit in the comics. but I think at least the opening part is done better than it was in the movie

The catalyst for Civil War in the comics was indeed a more straight forward thing. It's also the only thing the movie didn't vastly improve on

Also agreed overall.
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I just realized too, I left out an important instance in the OP -- Lagos, the opening scene of Civil War

When Cap's talking to the guy who got a building dropped on his face, and he sets off the bomb -- if Wanda doesn't throw it up into the side of the building (where I think they said maybe 13 people died?), surely dozens, if not hundreds, more would've died given how packed the bazaar area was (and the fact that people were literally circled around them lmao)
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Muffinz0rz posted...

I just realized too, I left out an important instance in the OP -- Lagos, the opening scene of Civil War

When Cap's talking to the guy who got a building dropped on his face, and he sets off the bomb -- if Wanda doesn't throw it up into the side of the building (where I think they said maybe 13 people died?), surely dozens, if not hundreds, more would've died given how packed the bazaar area was (and the fact that people were literally circled around them lmao)

100%. It's basically like that Incredible's opening scene where the entire train sued him except with more tragic results.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

I just realized too, I left out an important instance in the OP -- Lagos, the opening scene of Civil War

When Cap's talking to the guy who got a building dropped on his face, and he sets off the bomb -- if Wanda doesn't throw it up into the side of the building (where I think they said maybe 13 people died?), surely dozens, if not hundreds, more would've died given how packed the bazaar area was (and the fact that people were literally circled around them lmao)

Been a while since I've seen it. But wasn't it also at least implied that at least some Avengers thought she could've handled it in a better way?
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You could make a case that Loki only attacked Earth because of Thor and SHIELD having the Tesseract.
Winter Soldier was all SHIELD's fault.

The world government needed a scapegoat for all the disasters going on and the Avengers and SHIELD got the blame. Since SHIELD had already been abolished in the public eye, the Sokovia Accords mainly targeted the Avengers.

Well, world government includes the US government who were a large factor in pushing it... and the Tesseract and Hydra were both SHIELD's (and, therefore, the governemnt's) fault, not the Avengers.

Though, honestly, I can really say I agree Ultron was a big enough blunder on the Avengers (Well, Tony's) fault that I could see it being enough alone to get people angry. I'm not actually sure how much the public knows about Ultron's creation, though. And if Scarlet hadn't screwed with Tony's mind, he may not have ever built Ultron in the first place so we can kind-of slightly blame that on Hydra too.

fusespliff posted...

Been a while since I've seen it. But wasn't it also at least implied that at least some Avengers thought she could've handled it in a better way?

Not really, she was trying to hold the explosion in and it overpowered her and escaped. No one really said she could handle it better or it was her fault, they just thought she should stay out of the public eye and not blame herself so much over it as mistakes happen (even though I personally wouldn't really think of it as a "mistake" so much as she just wasn't strong enough to get it all the way out of civilian casualty range before it escaped).
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There's also the Hulk/Iron Man fight dealing quite a bit of property damage in a major African city that no one seems to mention. That wasn't a good look for the Avengers.
But yeah, while the accountability of superpowered beings was pushed as THE reason, it was mainly the public and governments needing a scapegoat for all the damage and losses suffered during superpowered skirmishes.
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Wasnt Loki attacking earth under orders of Thanos? Thanos gave him the mind stone (the scepter) so he could use it to retrieve the space stone (Tesseract). In return, Loki gets to rule over Thors precious Earth. The events in Ultron are the only ones you can blame on the Avengers
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Link43130 posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

They wouldn't get shit from the general population unless they were incredibly cavalier with the exact details of the events, which given how secret SHIELD was, I doubt it.

this isn't true, just look at how people reacted to trump and puerto rico. he did above and beyond to help those people and yet they still complained and complained

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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fusespliff posted...

There's also the Hulk/Iron Man fight dealing quite a bit of property damage in a major African city that no one seems to mention.

A good point. The only defense though is that being Hulk isn't exactly Banner's fault, right? So if we were to assume that Hulk went rampaging through the city without Iron Man to slow him down, then might've it been worse?

fusespliff posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

I just realized too, I left out an important instance in the OP -- Lagos, the opening scene of Civil War

When Cap's talking to the guy who got a building dropped on his face, and he sets off the bomb -- if Wanda doesn't throw it up into the side of the building (where I think they said maybe 13 people died?), surely dozens, if not hundreds, more would've died given how packed the bazaar area was (and the fact that people were literally circled around them lmao)

Been a while since I've seen it. But wasn't it also at least implied that at least some Avengers thought she could've handled it in a better way?

Yeah I can't possibly think of her doing anything better, or even any other avenger being able to work the situation better (other than Cap neutralizing the explosive from the start). She's the only one who A.) Has powers that don't require "travel time" (Black Widow, Falcon), and B.) Could've reacted quickly enough in the literal milliseconds between the guy pressing the explode button and the explosion occurring.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

A good point. The only defense though is that being Hulk isn't exactly Banner's fault, right? So if we were to assume that Hulk went rampaging through the city without Iron Man to slow him down, then might've it been worse?

I definitely forgot about that but that fight didn't have any casualties anyway iirc and Tony paid to rebuild the building. Now as for Bruce, yeah, no one can really control the Hulk once he's there, they can still control and direct where tehy send Bruce in the first place.
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Xelltrix posted...

I definitely forgot about that but that fight didn't have any casualties anyway

For real? Damn that's surprising as hell, none of the militia or police grunts they sent in got KO'd?

Xelltrix posted...

Now as for Bruce, yeah, no one can really control the Hulk once he's there, they can still control and direct where tehy send Bruce in the first place.

I guess they can, but I mean, they could send him to new york for some research conference and suddenly boom Hulk

Literally nowhere is safe from Banner, the only place they could send him and not get criticized by the plebs would be somewhere in the middle of buttfuck nowhere with literally nobody around to kill.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

For real? Damn that's surprising as hell, none of the militia or police grunts they sent in got KO'd?

Fairly certain they had that city evacuated long before that clash happened but I could be remembering it incorrectly.
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The Hulk isn't Banner's fault, sure. But he's a weapon that the Avengers are responsible for as they let a timebomb join their team. I could also argue that Hulk wouldn't be tearing up cities if it wasn't for the Avengers (well Fury & Widow) as Bruce purposefully stayed away from heavily populated areas after Harlem. Also the reason why he bailed again at the end of AoU.

Thanks for clearing it up about Wanda. Wasn't sure about that.

Xelltrix posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

For real? Damn that's surprising as hell, none of the militia or police grunts they sent in got KO'd?

Fairly certain they had that city evacuated long before that clash happened but I could be remembering it incorrectly.

There are definitely civilians around during that fight. Sure about that
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