Current Events > I dont like lootcrates but i dont understand how it's gambling...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gambling implies you might lose.

Lootcrates are just crap you waste money on, but you're still buying something... right?

That's how I see it. You get something out of it, always. There is no set value for digital content.

If you play in a casino, you either win or lose. When you lose, you gain absolutely nothing.

That's the only argument see in comparison between the two.
---

Entitled millennials
And old men who dont understand a changing world
---

MabusIncarnate posted...

That's how I see it. You get something out of it, always. There is no set value for digital content.

If you play in a casino, you either win or lose. When you lose, you gain absolutely nothing.

That's the only argument see in comparison between the two.

so if you opened a "casino" where everything won at least one cent, it wouldnt be gambling?

boy people shuold tell people about this plan. everyone could open whatever casinos they wanted! and have kids in there too!

Fam_Fam posted...

so if you opened a "casino" where everything won at least one cent, it wouldnt be gambling?

Hot damn, I'm gonna go play the penny slots!
---

Fam_Fam posted...

MabusIncarnate posted...

That's how I see it. You get something out of it, always. There is no set value for digital content.

If you play in a casino, you either win or lose. When you lose, you gain absolutely nothing.

That's the only argument see in comparison between the two.

so if you opened a "casino" where everything won at least one cent, it wouldnt be gambling?

boy people shuold tell people about this plan. everyone could open whatever casinos they wanted! and have kids in there too!

This is exactly how places like Dave & Busters works. You invest money to get tickets, turn in your tickets for little trinkets and whatnot. Should they shut down places like this, Chuck-e-Cheese because it's gambling and minors are involved? Do you consider that gambling?

Honest question.
---

What about services like Loot Crate, pay a monthly fee to get random rewards. Is Loot Crate gambling and should it be illegal? All you know going into it is that you get SOMETHING, but you have no idea what it is.
---

MabusIncarnate posted...

This is exactly how places like Dave & Busters works. You invest money to get tickets, turn in your tickets for little trinkets and whatnot. Should they shut down places like this, Chuck-e-Cheese because it's gambling and minors are involved? Do you consider that gambling?

really good point.

maybe ea should sell shitty pizza

MabusIncarnate posted...

If you play in a casino, you either win or lose. When you lose, you gain absolutely nothing.

Not quite the same, given that gambling is illegal in most states.

Battlefront was specifically a case of pay to progress since they tied essential gameplay elements to the crates and heavily restricted your natural ability to earn currency in-game. It was possible to "lose" in that your crate earned you nothing of value towards your advancement, either by giving you card dupes that just kicked back a fraction of credits or emotes/other junk. In the beta you could earn crafting parts from dupes that could still be used for advancement, but it was changed to credits for (you guessed it) more gambling.
---

I think the big issue with the way loot crates were implemented with SW was not just the random nature of it, but the fact that game can generate duplicates. Even with you getting a few credits back for them, it's similar in design to a slot machine where you can get a smaller "payout" than what you initially put in the machine.

I think if even the order was all randomly generated, you always got "new stuff" thus making the loot crate purchases finite for all players it wouldn't be perceived as gambling. As it stands there is the possibility to keep purchasing them and never getting all the content.

Particularly bad when it was still accepting real money

MabusIncarnate posted...

This is exactly how places like Dave & Busters works. You invest money to get tickets, turn in your tickets for little trinkets and whatnot. Should they shut down places like this, Chuck-e-Cheese because it's gambling and minors are involved? Do you consider that gambling?

Honest question.

There was actually some difficulty for D&B in some states because they got classified as gambling. To get around this, they had to get rid of all their games that were 100% luck based and could only have games that involved some element of skill -- because as long as it's based on skill, you can't call it gambling.
---

ok I get how the BF2 shit can be kinda like gambling. have any other games done something like it?

AlternativeFAQS posted...

MabusIncarnate posted...

This is exactly how places like Dave & Busters works. You invest money to get tickets, turn in your tickets for little trinkets and whatnot. Should they shut down places like this, Chuck-e-Cheese because it's gambling and minors are involved? Do you consider that gambling?

really good point.

maybe ea should sell shitty pizza

Not to mention that Dave & Busters literally has digital poker machines, where you can play to earn tickets.

The fact of all of this, it isn't a money investment for money. There is no financial gain or loss. You pay to play a game, if you win, you can be rewarded more than if you lose, where there is still a less valuable reward. This is nothing new, it's just being taken out of context.
---

Two things to keep in mind when trying to compare BF2 loot crates to casinos are the fact that casinos let you in for free and children are not allowed inside.

Wait are loot boxes in battlefront ii free?
---

armandro posted...

Wait are loot boxes in battlefront ii free?

They can be from earned in-game credits.
---

MabusIncarnate posted...

armandro posted...

Wait are loot boxes in battlefront ii free?

They can be from earned in-game credits.

So no weekly loot boxes?
---

Ban gatcha games.
---

armandro posted...

MabusIncarnate posted...

armandro posted...

Wait are loot boxes in battlefront ii free?

They can be from earned in-game credits.

So no weekly loot boxes?

There are daily loot boxes just got logging into the game.
---

MabusIncarnate posted...

This is exactly how places like Dave & Busters works. You invest money to get tickets, turn in your tickets for little trinkets and whatnot. Should they shut down places like this, Chuck-e-Cheese because it's gambling and minors are involved? Do you consider that gambling?

I've never been to either of those so I don't know how they operate, but yeah that sounds like gambling to me.

Gambling is taking a risky action in the hopes to obtain a desired result.

God, I hate this pedantic bullshit.
---

NihilistTurian posted...

Gambling is taking a risky action in the hopes to obtain a desired result.

God, I hate this pedantic bullshit.

But what if I spend $5 on a crate and am content with the contents, but someone else isn't?/ How is that value defined? It isn't, and that's the problem in which it can't be labeled gambling. It's like dropping a quarter in one of those machines at the grocery store and not getting that NFL sticker you were hoping for, but you still put that obscure team helmet on your trapper keeper.
---

imo, the difference between a booster pack and a casino bet is that the value of what's in the pack is determined by market forces, not intrinsic or fiat value. so long as you can't open up nothing, I don't see loot boxes, CCGs and the like as a good comparison to a slot machine or a scratcher.
---

MabusIncarnate posted...

NihilistTurian posted...

Gambling is taking a risky action in the hopes to obtain a desired result.

God, I hate this pedantic bullshit.

But what if I spend $5 on a crate and am content with the contents, but someone else isn't?/ How is that value defined? It isn't, and that's the problem in which it can't be labeled gambling. It's like dropping a quarter in one of those machines at the grocery store and not getting that NFL sticker you were hoping for, but you still put that obscure team helmet on your trapper keeper.

A crate is its own independent existence that waits for people to come to it. It's not tied to anything else, and you're not missing out by not having one (though it can be a nice surprise). The crate is also its own clearly defined product capable of standing on its own.

Loot boxes are (usually) pushed on you and are designed to be predatory in such a way as to get people inclined towards addiction to keep spending on them. Games are also deliberately designed to be more grindy/boring to encourage people to spend, resulting in constant excuses from publishers when someone points it out.

Not to mention plenty of games out there deliberately fill the "drop" pool for loot boxes with worthless garbage. I'm not too-too familiar with the contents of crates, but odds are you'll at least get something you like from them, or something you can gift to someone who would.
---

Medussa posted...

imo, the difference between a booster pack and a casino bet is that the value of what's in the pack is determined by market forces, not intrinsic or fiat value. so long as you can't open up nothing, I don't see loot boxes, CCGs and the like as a good comparison to a slot machine or a scratcher.

This is a good point. But even more to the point, in a CCG even a super rare card has a fixed odds of being obtained because a certain number are printed and shipped in packs. Even if it's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 or whatever

In digital lootboxes, it's an infinite number of possible loot crates before you ever land on a "rare" potentially. You can quite possibly open an infinite amount of loot boxes and never get anything worthwhile. On top of the fact that it's a video game that can be digitally adjusted whenever the devs feel like to make it even more daunting as a consumer.

A CCG has a fixed odds no matter what. You might not get what you want in a CCG, but it's a level playing field for all who buy. An online video game does not have that, if you don't want to call that gambling, that simply semantics. What is undeniable though is that it's a predatory business practice.

TheDarkCircle posted...

Medussa posted...

imo, the difference between a booster pack and a casino bet is that the value of what's in the pack is determined by market forces, not intrinsic or fiat value. so long as you can't open up nothing, I don't see loot boxes, CCGs and the like as a good comparison to a slot machine or a scratcher.

This is a good point. But even more to the point, in a CCG even a super rare card has a fixed odds of being obtained because a certain number are printed and shipped in packs. Even if it's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 or whatever

In digital lootboxes, it's an infinite number of possible loot crates before you ever land on a "rare" potentially. You can quite possibly open an infinite amount of loot boxes and never get anything worthwhile. On top of the fact that it's a video game that can be digitally adjusted whenever the devs feel like to make it even more daunting as a consumer.

A CCG has a fixed odds no matter what. You might not get what you want in a CCG, but it's a level playing field for all who buy. An online video game does not have that, if you don't want to call that gambling, that simply semantics. What is undeniable though is that it's a predatory business practice.

eh. with a decent sample size (which I have to guess any successful game is going to hit), 1% is 1%. it doesn't really matter if that 1 physical card on a sheet of 100, or a 1% chance of a digital card on a procedurally generated pack. also, nothing is stopping them from coding their packs in a way that mimics print runs. instead of generating one box at a time, generate enough that everything exists in the specified odds, and distribute a random one when it's earned/purchased. and I know some countries demand that game devs publish those odds to prevent just what you're worried about.
---

AlternativeFAQS posted...

Gambling implies you might lose.

you lose quite a lot when you open Overwatch lootboxes
---

If lootcrates become "gambling", then blind-buy figurines, collectible card games, and toy-capsule vending machines are next.

Questionmarktarius posted...

If lootcrates become "gambling", then blind-buy figurines, collectible card games, and toy-capsule vending machines are next.

they are also gambling

but the main difference is when you get a dupe in a blind figure, you can sell it on ebay or give it to a friend as a gift

and when the game shuts down, you lose all those items you spent so much money on, but a figure is still on your shelf, entirely yours and you can paint it and modify it, sell it, melt it down for plastic, do whatever you want with it

or you can find a guy who needs the dupe you have and trade it to him for the figure you wanted

just think if you could trade a dupe skin in overwatch for the very one you wanted

they wouldn't make much money if they allowed you to do that right? why not? think about it for a second
why don't they allow trading?
if you can answer it honestly you will understand why the practice is predatory
---

You're paying money for an uncertain outcome that can result in you either obtaining something great or something shitty.
---

darkphoenix181 posted...

they wouldn't make much money if they allowed you to do that right? why not? think about it for a second
why don't they allow trading?
if you can answer it honestly you will understand why the practice is predatory

Overwatch doesn't have a shady RMA yet?

Questionmarktarius posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

they wouldn't make much money if they allowed you to do that right? why not? think about it for a second
why don't they allow trading?
if you can answer it honestly you will understand why the practice is predatory

Overwatch doesn't have a shady RMA yet?

?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_merchandise_authorization

not sure what that has to do with anything since you cannot refund a lootbox

but I wasn't talking about refunds, I was talking about being able to trade a duplicate to a friend for the skin you wanted

because with figure blind-boxes you can do that
---

darkphoenix181 posted...

?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_merchandise_authorization

Real-Money Auction

oh, that was a dig at diablo 3 I see
---

darkphoenix181 posted...

oh, that was a dig at diablo 3 I see

No, it's a wonder why loot-crate games don't all have one. It's a whole 'nother monetization vector, via salami-slicing.

ClunkerSlim posted...

Someone stop this kid from gambling!
Where are his parents?!

oh no! Toysrus lets kids gamble so then all forms of child gambling must be ok and we can't discuss it!
---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.

Lootcrates are definitely gambling.
---

BLAKUboy posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.

Lootcrates are definitely gambling.

Yup. Especially when you factor in the fact that lootcrates are usually 90% garbage and 10% stuff you actually want.
---

i think this whole "outraged nerd who is mad about loot crates and is writing to his state senator about it" is going to backfire spectacularly in the next few years.

obviously the issue here is not in the presence of loot crates in the game (because people enjoy them in other titles and you don't see outrage about Overwatch or w/e because "they do it right") but that all progression in BF2 is tied to them.

getting the government involved in video games is never a good idea; look at tipper gore, hillary clinton etc with the war on violent video games, people like jack thompson, etc.

video games have historically been overlooked by the older generation who pretty much just view them as toys for kids and stunted adults. what these BF2 whiners are doing is trying to incite another moral panic about video games so they can feel some sense of importance for protesting a video game (lol).

this shit is so annoying. i agree that the progression system in bf2 is dumb but if you dont like it dont buy it and move on with your life. i feel like half the people getting into this dont even care about BF2 in the first place, they just are unfulfilled internet nerds who are finally excited to have a cause to rally behind that is based on something they finally enjoy & easily understand (their precious vidya).

</rant>
---

All that would happen by getting the government involved in this issue is officially classifying lootcrates as gambling, which would force the ESRB to label any games including them as such. This would mean any games with lootcrates would be automatic AO games, thus would not be stocked by any stores, and thus would not sell. This would force game developers to abandon the lootcrate system.

Also remember the ESRB only exists because the government got involved when the video game industry was getting out of hand with mature content. I don't see any complaints about that.
---

BLAKUboy posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.

Lootcrates are definitely gambling.

Key word there is winning, which has the implication you can lose. You're not winning anything with lootcrates in this case and can't lose.

Not to defend lootcrates, they fucking suck, but in the US at least I don't ever see the gambling angle holding up in the court of law.
---

voldothegr8 posted...

You're not winning anything with lootcrates in this case and can't lose.

wtf is this sentence?
---

Link HT posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

You're not winning anything with lootcrates in this case and can't lose.

wtf is this sentence?

You're not winning anything, you're paying for a random piece of digital content that has no monetary value.
---

voldothegr8 posted...

Link HT posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

You're not winning anything with lootcrates in this case and can't lose.

wtf is this sentence?

You're not winning anything, you're paying for a random piece of digital content that has no monetary value.

if you're paying for it then it has monetary value. Digital good aren't new dude, this was established a long time ago.
---

voldothegr8 posted...

Link HT posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

You're not winning anything with lootcrates in this case and can't lose.

wtf is this sentence?

You're not winning anything, you're paying for a random piece of digital content that has no monetary value.

actually people sell their accounts on ebay proving it has monetary value
---

darkphoenix181 posted...

actually people sell their accounts on ebay proving it has monetary value

even if you couldn't resell it, something has monetary value if people are willing to pay money for it. By definition lootcrates have monetary value because they're sold for money, this isn't even up for debate.
---

darkphoenix181 posted...

actually people sell their accounts on ebay proving it has monetary value

We need to remove all randomizing functions from all games then, eh?

I mean, I could have sold my WoW account back in the day, I guess I should be guaranteed raid drops eh?
---

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

We need to remove all randomizing functions from all games then, eh?

No. You just need to call it gambling when a service sells you "a chance at winning something" but you can't actually directly buy the actual thing.
---

NihilistTurian posted...

Loot boxes are (usually) pushed on you and are designed to be predatory in such a way as to get people inclined towards addiction to keep spending on them. Games are also deliberately designed to be more grindy/boring to encourage people to spend, resulting in constant excuses from publishers when someone points it out.

This is the crux of the issue. That theses games are being purposely designed to engineer people into plunking down $10-20 extra here and there. It's like Joe Camel in the 90s. They knew exactly what they were doing when making a cartoon camel to try and sell cigarettes.
---