Current Events > What makes a game "pay to win" to you?

(+) Yeah! (+)

As far as I'm concerned, if a game gives a player who pays any advantage at all over players who don't pay, it's pay to win. Basically, if it's not cosmetic, it can fuck off.
For example, people tell me Warframe isn't pay to win. This is a game where you have to wait several hours or even DAYS (72 hours, to be exact) to craft items such as Warframes if you don't pay. I'd like to hear what some of you think. >_>
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if you can buy your way through content or if you can unlock new content

basically what you said. if it's anything besides cosmetics
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if you can buy ingame advantages.
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Any PvP multiplayer game where you can buy non cosmetic things. Like a game like Fire Emblem Heroes I don't consider pay-to-win, because there's no real PvP component as any enemy team are played by bots and can be exploited.
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I'm a bit more generous. I won't call it pay to win, if it feels like a normal game that basically is just preying on frivolous spenders and weak-willed inept players who want an easy way out.

Like if you took a real game like Dark Souls, and changed nothing, except you put in some microtransaction BS people could do, to temporarily power them up to help them through a tough spot/boss, but otherwise the game remains unchanged, I wouldn't call it pay to win because it's perfectly designed to be overcome normally, and the microtransactions while still shitty, are just exploiting lame people basically.

The problem with free games of course is that, well, they want to make money. So they have a vested interest in NOT making a good game that is good without microtransactions. So they make it overly difficult and punishing, or just mind-bogglingly tedious. They put in BS that is clearly just there to waste your time, a lot of your time, while pushing you to buy something to make it not such a tedious drag.

For me, I determine if a game is pay to win based off how the game is designed. If it feels like a legitimate game meant to be, on its own merits, a good game, that feels good and is a good experience, or if it feels like they intentionally put in basically bad design and then put in ways to pay real money to make the game better designed.

...However, this is basically talking exclusively about a largely single player experience. Competitive is much more...strict in how I'd define it, because if you're playing against people who can buy advantages over you that you either can't get, or it will take a lot of time and sacrifices to get, and you may be literally incapable of outpacing them because they don't just get immediate bonuses but also boosts to the rate they further gain later bonuses...then that's just yeah, pay to win. Basically in a competitive online setting, the fact other players CAN pay to get all these advantages basically creates the bad game design situation I was talking about organically, making you feel like you need to also spend money to compete and make the experience not bad and shitty.

When it comes to online competitive games, microtransactions should be purely for cosmetics and nothing more. That will still milk consumers plenty WITHOUT fucking the game up. But when it comes to competitive free to play games...honestly, I think those are just inherently gonna be doomed to fucking suck.
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Tmk posted...

...However, this is basically talking exclusively about a largely single player experience. Competitive is much more...strict in how I'd define it, because if you're playing against people who can buy advantages over you that you either can't get, or it will take a lot of time and sacrifices to get, and you may be literally incapable of outpacing them because they don't just get immediate bonuses but also boosts to the rate they further gain later bonuses...then that's just yeah, pay to win. Basically in a competitive online setting, the fact other players CAN pay to get all these advantages basically creates the bad game design situation I was talking about organically, making you feel like you need to also spend money to compete and make the experience not bad and shitty.

When you say competitive, are you talking about strictly PvP, or are you including PvE games as well?
Thanks for a well written post!
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I'm not actually sure. Might just depend on a case by case basis. I don't have much experience with competitive games that do it via PvE mostly though.
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If I don't like it
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Tmaster148 posted...

Like a game like Fire Emblem Heroes I don't consider pay-to-win, because there's no real PvP component as any enemy team are played by bots and can be exploited.

Yeah, have fun playing against a Tier 20 team with 4 40+10 units and an optimal skillset with F2P units.
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If you can drop $100 on the game starting out and be more powerful then someone that has played it 50 hours... that's P2W imo...
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Azardea posted...

As far as I'm concerned, if a game gives a player who pays any advantage at all over players who don't pay, it's pay to win.

u answered your own question

it really only matters in multi-player games. If you buy the game and are instantly faced with others who spent hundreds to level up or unlock more powerful options than you the level of competition is already skewed right from the start. In campaign modes i just don't like it when you can't naturally unlock some things and have to buy them (unless its a new level or something added way after the fact. if its a day one character i can't unlock by playing the story its kind of lame)
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What are some single player games that are p2w? The only thing I can think of are preorder bonuses or collector's edition in-game items, but they tend to be useful only a few hours before getting outscaled by the items you get in the game.
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To your point about Warframe, I don't consider it pay to win because it's primarily PvE, yeah the time gate sucks but honestly there's so many things to build that you can always be working on something else while an item is building. Plus it's free, which does matter alot.
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I think of P2W as describing games where money gives you an advantage that you can't get through regular play. If the exchange of money to time is too egregious, that also qualifies.
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TheDarkCircle posted...

Azardea posted...

As far as I'm concerned, if a game gives a player who pays any advantage at all over players who don't pay, it's pay to win.

u answered your own question

You'd be surprised.

Darkninja42 posted...

To your point about Warframe, I don't consider it pay to win because it's primarily PvE, yeah the time gate sucks but honestly there's so many things to build that you can always be working on something else while an item is building. Plus it's free, which does matter alot.

Yeah, I dunno. When I first saw that 72 hour timer ticking down after I farmed all those materials, my interest for the game just died completely. I realize that they have to make money somehow, but still.

LordFarquad1312 posted...

What are some single player games that are p2w? The only thing I can think of are preorder bonuses or collector's edition in-game items, but they tend to be useful only a few hours before getting outscaled by the items you get in the game.

Shadow of War, maybe? I haven't played it myself, but apparently loot boxes become really important if you don't want to grind your ass off in act 4 or something. Single player games usually don't have real pay to win elements.
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Give Warframe a chance. The timers may seem annoying, but theres enough to do that you could easily stay busy while that timer goes down. Or, you can use them to take programmed breaks if the grind burns you out?
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LordFarquad1312 posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Like a game like Fire Emblem Heroes I don't consider pay-to-win, because there's no real PvP component as any enemy team are played by bots and can be exploited.

Yeah, have fun playing against a Tier 20 team with 4 40+10 units and an optimal skillset with F2P units.

F2P actually is not that bad. Considering there have been some great units like BLyn, Xander, Camus. Plus there's also a pretty good supply of free orbs and ever new banner has a free pull on it now. While staying in tier 20 is unlikely due to the points required to stay, you could easily be T18 and T19 without spending money on the game.
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basically where your line is, TC. the only thing I don't count that some people might is storage space and character slots. Path of Exile being the example relevant to me. everyone gets 4 tabs of space and 25 characters, and the option to buy more. you can play the game just fine with those numbers, but extra storage space definitely removes some decisions.

otherwise, GGG does micros right. almost all are cosmetic, and no actual items ever for real money.
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