Current Events > Man, it's gross watching all these cities bend over for Amazon

(+) Yeah! (+)

Chicago: http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2017/10/20/sources-say-amazon-incentives-ballpark-2-billion#.WensnKhLyqo.twitter
Newark: https://www.wsj.com/articles/newark-offers-7-billion-in-incentives-to-lure-amazon-1508191648?mod=e2tw
Pittsburgh: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/10/filmmaker-shows-unlivable-pittsburgh/542901/
NYC: https://twitter.com/GloriaPazmino/status/920679916697477121
Boston: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/19/read-boston-full-bid-amazon/gmlG1jBfH2aGTftHNcHq0M/story.html

An Amazon campus would be a transit disaster in a lot of these places, to say nothing for the corporate welfare involved.
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Amazon has made the world better and any city would be made better by an Amazon campus.
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Because corporations are more important than the citizens in the US. They provide money to the politicians so they can run for elections.
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Wasn't there some elaborate sweetheart deal somewhere that came out to wasting three million for each employee actually hired?

Lemme go hunt that down, unless someone else does.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Wasn't there some elaborate sweetheart deal somewhere that came out to wasting three million for each employee actually hired?

The highest figure I've spotted is Newark's $130k per job. Maybe you're thinking about Wisconsin's Foxconn deal?
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Antifar posted...

Maybe you're thinking about Wisconsin's Foxconn deal?

Probably.

It's also gross seeing people defend amazon for the snes classic fiasco
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My hometown of Buffalo made a bid and would actually be a solid choice. Cheap, tons of space, tax breaks, easy access to a lot of urban centers.

Elon musk is building Solar City plant here.
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Antifar posted...

Chicago: http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2017/10/20/sources-say-amazon-incentives-ballpark-2-billion#.WensnKhLyqo.twitter
Newark: https://www.wsj.com/articles/newark-offers-7-billion-in-incentives-to-lure-amazon-1508191648?mod=e2tw
Pittsburgh: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/10/filmmaker-shows-unlivable-pittsburgh/542901/
NYC: https://twitter.com/GloriaPazmino/status/920679916697477121
Boston: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/19/read-boston-full-bid-amazon/gmlG1jBfH2aGTftHNcHq0M/story.html

An Amazon campus would be a transit disaster in a lot of these places, to say nothing for the corporate welfare involved.

Let's see- a big gigantic corporation says hey, we want to create thousands of jobs, who wants us in their area? So cities, who WANT their people to be employed because they get things such as local taxes, payroll taxes, etc, BUT we will complain that to lure these people to their city they have to say, how about some tax breaks for you.

This is all money they didn't have before. The city isn't suddenly losing billions of dollars. It's not money they had to begin with. What they are saying is, well we can lower your taxes some if you choose to build here and employ our citizens.
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judasmaiden15 posted...

It's also gross seeing people defend amazon for the snes classic fiasco

It's inexplicable that nobody (especially Amazon) seems to remember the concept of a waiting-list.

From my local news site (Harrisburg, PA)

According to Amazon's bidding documents, it plans to invest roughly $5 billion in infrastructure and construction.

That's an even bigger deal!
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judasmaiden15 posted...

It's also gross seeing people defend amazon for the snes classic fiasco

well that's bizarre since my SNES Classic I ordered from Amazon literally just arrived today. What Fiasco are you talking about?
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DelianSK posted...

This is all money they didn't have before. The city isn't suddenly losing billions of dollars. It's not money they had to begin with. What they are saying is, well we can lower your taxes some if you choose to build here and employ our citizens.

But, the better idea is policy that encourages local economic conditions that make a business want to be there, instead of overt bribery and kingmaking.
Instead of a sweetheart tax deal for that one big company you want, just have lower taxes instead.

At best, these deals are the rough equivalent of "ladies night" at a bar. At worst, it's just dumping money down a hole.

daftpunk_mk5 posted...

My hometown of Buffalo made a bid and would actually be a solid choice. Cheap, tons of space, tax breaks, easy access to a lot of urban centers.

Elon musk is building Solar City plant here.

outside of folks freezing to death and having to watch the Bills *shudders*
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Antifar posted...

Chicago: http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2017/10/20/sources-say-amazon-incentives-ballpark-2-billion#.WensnKhLyqo.twitter
Newark: https://www.wsj.com/articles/newark-offers-7-billion-in-incentives-to-lure-amazon-1508191648?mod=e2tw
Pittsburgh: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/10/filmmaker-shows-unlivable-pittsburgh/542901/
NYC: https://twitter.com/GloriaPazmino/status/920679916697477121
Boston: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/19/read-boston-full-bid-amazon/gmlG1jBfH2aGTftHNcHq0M/story.html

An Amazon campus would be a transit disaster in a lot of these places, to say nothing for the corporate welfare involved.

Denvers bid: we have a great view, lots of amazon factories already and secrets. Literally on the news last night
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Questionmarktarius posted...

DelianSK posted...

This is all money they didn't have before. The city isn't suddenly losing billions of dollars. It's not money they had to begin with. What they are saying is, well we can lower your taxes some if you choose to build here and employ our citizens.

But, the better idea is policy that encourages local economic conditions that make a business want to be there, instead of overt bribery and kingmaking.
Instead of a sweetheart tax deal for that one big company you want, just have lower taxes instead.

At best, these deals are the rough equivalent of "ladies night" at a bar. At worst, it's just dumping money down a hole.

Because what these companies want is lower taxes. I think a tradeoff of saying (NUMBERS ARE MADE UP) well, normally you would have to pay us 2 million in taxes, but since you're emplying all of these people from the area and we are getting taxes from them as well, we will accept 1 million dollars.

The reason people want it is because it's a huge, huge, HUGE deal for a city.

Edit: And your ladies night comment.... don't ladies night bring more people to the bars?
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my fiance works for usps and the amount of pull Amazon has is insane. she's their point of contact since she has the highest position in the plant except for the plant manager, and Amazon basically gets to do whatever it wants because the post office needs their support
if/when Amazon decides to ditch them, they're lolfucked
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Alakazamtrainer posted...

Denvers bid: we have a great view, lots of amazon factories already and secrets. Literally on the news last night

Kansas City's bid: We're strongarming the population in building an airport nobody but my cousin the contractor actually wants.

I just noticed they are promising 50,000 jobs. That's a lot.
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Think that's bad. The post office bows to Amazon too

AlternativeFAQS posted...

Think that's bad. The post office bows to Amazon too

Amazon and Netflix are the post office's best customers, though.

It's delicious watching people demonstrate how clueless they really are as to how the world works.

Cities have to compete if they want Amazon there. Cities want Amazon there because it means having a substantial increase in tax revenue and employment. It's literally a win win situation for everyone involved. The only reason to complain about this is because of misguided and insane notions about communism and how the economy actually works.

DelianSK posted...

Edit: And your ladies night comment.... don't ladies night bring more people to the bars?

That's why it's the "best case" scenario.

Amazon is pledging to create 50,000 new jobs with an average salary of $100,000 and invest $5 billion in new office space.

I mean, you'd have to be unbelievably stupid to think that giving Amazon competitive tax rates in order to earn more money, infrastructure investment, and HUGE employment increases is bad.

This will reinvigorate the entire state when you consider the ripple effect of that many jobs at that high salary.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

This will reinvigorate the entire state when you consider the ripple effect of that many jobs at that high salary.

"Average" is the important part here.
The night janitor getting paid 13K isn't going to contribute much, apart from, you know, sucking up a bit less in entitlements.

Questionmarktarius posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

This will reinvigorate the entire state when you consider the ripple effect of that many jobs at that high salary.

"Average" is the important part here.
The night janitor getting paid 13K isn't going to contribute much.

This is a dull response from you, considering you're typically a smart poster.

$100,000 average doesn't mean everyone will get $100,000, but it does mean that 50,000 people will be contributing a substantial amount to the local and state economy as that average of $100,000 per person gets taxed and spent and invested.

ChromaticAngel posted...

judasmaiden15 posted...

It's also gross seeing people defend amazon for the snes classic fiasco

well that's bizarre since my SNES Classic I ordered from Amazon literally just arrived today. What Fiasco are you talking about?

the august 22 pre orders kept being delayed so people would cancel it also they had the treasure truck that sold snes classics, then if you did get one from when you pre ordered it back in august it in a envelope and one without an ac adapter and hdmi cable
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no one in the real world even gives a shit about the snes classic stuff lol
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

This is a dull response from you, considering you're typically a smart poster.

Seems I've gotten a case of the "fuck-it fridays" - sorry about that.

Tossing five billion of new annual income into any given locale is quite a bit.
It'll probably work out great, regardless of all my ranting about "kingmaking". It really is just too bad that it takes sweetheart deals to actually do that.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Tossing five billion of new annual income into any given locale is quite a bit.
It'll probably work out great, regardless of all my ranting about "kingmaking". It really is just too bad that it takes sweetheart deals to actually do that.

They're not actually sweetheart deals. They're "everyone wins together" deals. Amazon brings a lot to the table. Cities have to as well. And this is true of business and economics at the local level. If your city isn't providing a good environment for people to do business and grow wealth, you're fucked.

Questionmarktarius posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

This is a dull response from you, considering you're typically a smart poster.

Seems I've gotten a case of the "fuck-it fridays" - sorry about that.

Tossing five billion of new annual income into any given locale is quite a bit.
It'll probably work out great, regardless of all my ranting about "kingmaking". It really is just too bad that it takes sweetheart deals to actually do that.

I would think one of the only ways to prevent stuff like this is to make sure that no matter what, every company has the same taxes NATIONWIDE. Which would be a huge infringement on states. Wouldn't ever happen.
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DelianSK posted...

I would think one of the only ways to prevent stuff like this is to make sure that no matter what, every company has the same taxes NATIONWIDE. Which would be a huge infringement on states. Wouldn't ever happen.

Let the states compete. It's healthy for the entire economic ecosystem. In the global economy we need to ensure that American workers have the opportunity to work and amass wealth and start their own businesses.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Let the states compete. It's healthy for the entire economic ecosystem. In the global economy we need to ensure that American workers have the opportunity to work and amass wealth and start their own businesses.

Oh so much This.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

If your city isn't providing a good environment for people to do business and grow wealth, you're fucked.

But, they aren't doing that. They're providing a good environment for that guy and that business, when the better idea is something along the lines of "TIF for everyone" or something. Probably not TIF though.
If you have to offer tax abatements to get companies to even show up, it's a pretty damn good sign that you're taxes are pretty screwed up - otherwise you wouldn't have to abate them.

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, they aren't doing that. They're providing a good environment for that guy and that business, when the better idea is something along the lines of "TIF for everyone" or something. Probably not TIF though.
If you have to offer tax abatements to get companies to even show up, it's a pretty damn good sign that you're taxes are pretty screwed up - otherwise you wouldn't have to abate them.

I think the tax situation is definitely screwed up. And even the left realizes this because you have traditionally left-leaning cities trying to get Amazon. With an opportunity of this magnitude, even they're willing to take a step back and make a deal.

They just need to realize that they need to do that for everyone rather than just Amazon. But if it takes a good deal with Amazon to make them realize that business is good, then so be it.

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, they aren't doing that. They're providing a good environment for that guy and that business, when the better idea is something along the lines of "TIF for everyone" or something. Probably not TIF though.
If you have to offer tax abatements to get companies to even show up, it's a pretty damn good sign that you're taxes are pretty screwed up - otherwise you wouldn't have to abate them.

I pretty much agree, but im wondering, even if the taxes for all these cities lowered for all companies, wouldn't they still want to offer these same types of tax incentives for these really big companies?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

They just need to realize that they need to do that for everyone rather than just Amazon. But if it takes a good deal with Amazon to make them realize that business is good, then so be it.

The more likely scenario is a "special transportation tax district" or something that drive up taxes in an area of about six blocks, causing existing home/condo/flat owners to be priced out by increased property tax, while business lose customers from increased sales tax; and quickly transforming the area into nothing more than mid-high apartments that aggregate the property tax over several units, the Amazon campus that's immune from the tax, and two Starbucks for some reason.

emblem boy posted...

I pretty much agree, but im wondering, even if the taxes for all these cities lowered for all companies, wouldn't they still want to offer these same types of tax incentives for these really big companies?

More likely, they'll get undercut by a sweetheart deal from a screwed up city. Oh well.
At least until the TIF or abatement expires, then the company will publicly and LOUDLY announce plans to relocate, and the process starts all over again.

emblem boy posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, they aren't doing that. They're providing a good environment for that guy and that business, when the better idea is something along the lines of "TIF for everyone" or something. Probably not TIF though.
If you have to offer tax abatements to get companies to even show up, it's a pretty damn good sign that you're taxes are pretty screwed up - otherwise you wouldn't have to abate them.

I pretty much agree, but im wondering, even if the taxes for all these cities lowered for all companies, wouldn't they still want to offer these same types of tax incentives for these really big companies?

Maybe once the tax burden is sufficiently reduced there are other considerations a large company might have. Like public transport, the cleanliness of the city, labor supply, etc.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

emblem boy posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, they aren't doing that. They're providing a good environment for that guy and that business, when the better idea is something along the lines of "TIF for everyone" or something. Probably not TIF though.
If you have to offer tax abatements to get companies to even show up, it's a pretty damn good sign that you're taxes are pretty screwed up - otherwise you wouldn't have to abate them.

I pretty much agree, but im wondering, even if the taxes for all these cities lowered for all companies, wouldn't they still want to offer these same types of tax incentives for these really big companies?

Maybe once the tax burden is sufficiently reduced there are other considerations a large company might have. Like public transport, the cleanliness of the city, labor supply, etc.

What counts as sufficiently reduced then. It'd have to be a balance between tax savings and those other things of course, but I'm curious at what tax rate that is and if it's a "realistic" amount
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St. Louis put in a bid (or is working on one) but they'd probably just get shot or protested if they come here, sadly. =(
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emblem boy posted...

What counts as sufficiently reduced then. It'd have to be a balance between tax savings and those other things of course, but I'm curious at what tax rate that is and if it's a "realistic" amount

Property tax is essentially a rent paid to the local government, and by that I mean "no idea".

emblem boy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

emblem boy posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, they aren't doing that. They're providing a good environment for that guy and that business, when the better idea is something along the lines of "TIF for everyone" or something. Probably not TIF though.
If you have to offer tax abatements to get companies to even show up, it's a pretty damn good sign that you're taxes are pretty screwed up - otherwise you wouldn't have to abate them.

I pretty much agree, but im wondering, even if the taxes for all these cities lowered for all companies, wouldn't they still want to offer these same types of tax incentives for these really big companies?

Maybe once the tax burden is sufficiently reduced there are other considerations a large company might have. Like public transport, the cleanliness of the city, labor supply, etc.

What counts as sufficiently reduced then. It'd have to be a balance between tax savings and those other things of course, but I'm curious at what tax rate that is and if it's a "realistic" amount

The market has to decide that. It can't be 0% because then there'd be no public services, but it can't be 50% because then no one will want to do business.

Bump for @Antifar to get some education

Questionmarktarius posted...

AlternativeFAQS posted...

Think that's bad. The post office bows to Amazon too

Amazon and Netflix are the post office's best customers, though.

Nope. Maybe 5 years ago but not now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE7D3Mo-htU

You left out Baltimore. They're practically begging Amazon to take them raw
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I wish my city, St. Louis, could get some love, but we never win unless the Cardinals are winning the World Series.

I just want Missouri and St. Louis to be more appreciated as the state is great, and the city has a lot to offer if people give it a chance.

But nobody sees what I do.
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Funny how Antifar hasn't shown his face in this trainwreck of a topic rofl