Current Events > What do liberals mean when they speak of equality?

(+) Yeah! (+)

They want everyone to be equally miserable.
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Liberals have a flawed worldview where they don't understand the difference between inequity and inequality.
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Conservatives have a flawed worldview where they don't acknowledge inequality unless it affects them.
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Paragon21XX posted...

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Kinda like this:


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CarlGrimes posted...

They want everyone to be equally miserable.

Right, comrade!
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Venezuela has among the lowest income and social inequality in the world.

Truly, it is the leftist success story.
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Mal_Fet posted...

Venezuela has among the lowest income and social inequality in the world.

Truly, it is the leftist success story.

averagejoel thinks so. And any ways that it is not are due to the U.S. meddling.
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UncleBourbon33 posted...

They want equal outcomes without the equal amount of effort.

This
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The Deadpool posted...

TrollSlayer11 posted...

I know what it means. It's been proven demonstrably and measurably FALSE, time and time again.

Doesn't that defeat your "women would be hired more often than men" argument?

No.

If I read him right, he's saying if the wage gap were true and women are equally competent to men, employers would hire primarily women and few men. Because they would save 25-30% on cost of labor for all their female employees. But the wage gap isn't real, so employers don't discriminate much on based on sex because there is no monetary gain.

He is partially right, but he's arguing against an inaccurate usage of the wage gap. That is, the false claim that women with comparable education and experience are paid substantially less than men for the same work because sexism.

There is a wage gap between the average salaries of all men as a group and all women as a group, but it's primarily explained by the choices men and women tend to make.

For example, men are more likely to choose higher paying, but more dangerous and/or dirty jobs with grueling hours and/or located in isolated locations away from home. Offshore oil rig worker comes to mind. That is a dirty, laborious job with long hours that is located hundreds of miles from home for weeks or months at a time and can have high risk of injury or death; they are also typically better paid than secretaries, maids, nurses, etc.
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UncleBourbon33 posted...

They want equal outcomes without the equal amount of effort.

Pretty much the opposite of this, though I will say they often undervalue the nuance of situations and give too much blame to inequality than other factors (example, women often make less because they don't negotiate as much as men). This leads to forcing a false equality. Too often they are so nebulous in their aims they don't know exactly what they are fighting for (a vague 'feeling')

That said, I'm not going to feed the conservative circle jerk of "everyone else is lazy and entitled but me, I'm just being held back by taxes, regulations, big brother etc..." Thats a very human error of assuming wide ranging, fatal character traits in others while overvaluing the nuances and difficulties of our own lives.
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When I say it, I mean equal rights, equal opportunity (enforced through things like The Civil Rights Act, Fair Housing Act, and other non-discrimination laws), equal treatment under the law and in the justice system, and and laws meant to correct horrendous and historical injustice, like The Voting Rights act.

I however do not mean things like Affirmative Actions or generally, anything that might solely apply to one race.
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I feel like some of you people have never even talked to a liberal the way you strawman them. This topic is a ridiculous circlejerk.

Very few liberals believe anything that has been said in this topic, but of course you don't wanna grapple with that because then you'd have to have the very difficult debate about how much equality of opportunity can really exist in a system without even a rough equality of resources, racism, sexism, classism, etc.

I had no idea that all this time leftists really just wanted to stay at home and play Halo while having the nanny state pay for it. Coulda fooled me with all the....non-caricature views real people have instead of Facebook post/grandma's 50x forwarded chainmail liberals.
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legendary_zell posted...

I feel like some of you people have never even talked to a liberal the way you strawman them

Keep in mind who your audience is: a good number of socially anxious shut ins with admitted mental health issues. Of course they've never actually talked to a liberal, or ANYONE for that matter. If it's not on the computer in meme form to many of these folks, it doesn't exist.
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That_Happened posted...

legendary_zell posted...

I feel like some of you people have never even talked to a liberal the way you strawman them

Keep in mind who your audience is: a good number of socially anxious shut ins with admitted mental health issues. Of course they've never actually talked to a liberal, or ANYONE for that matter. If it's not on the computer in meme form to many of these folks, it doesn't exist.

I hear that a lot and have seen a few users myself but is this really true? I don't mean for people like Zik that say really weird shit and defend it in an even more weird way.

Some of the users might be really solidified in their opinions and do crazy mental gymnastics to push a narrative but how many really don't function in real life well?
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legendary_zell posted...

I feel like some of you people have never even talked to a liberal the way you strawman them. This topic is a ridiculous circlejerk.

Yeah, I'm inclined to take liberals' word on what they believe regarding equality over the several conservatives who want to speak for them ITT.
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ThePrinceFish posted...

Equality of outcome rather than of opportunity.

That's not accurate at all.
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legendary_zell posted...

Very few liberals believe anything that has been said in this topic, but of course you don't wanna grapple with that because then you'd have to have the very difficult debate about how much equality of opportunity can really exist in a system without even a rough equality of resources, racism, sexism, classism, etc.

Actually it's overwhelmingly one's own life choices that determine how successful you are. Not boogeymen like institutional racism/sexism/whateverism.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba428
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

With the diversity quotas today you sometimes have to wonder.

But what's odd is that most women want "equal representation" with men in high paying comfortable fields. They scream for this.

But you never ever ever ever see them wanting equal representation and opportunity to go into high paying labor jobs like construction, logging, Or any physical labor jobs. These jobs are almost always 95+ percent men.

Why don't they want those high paying jobs?

I just can't believe people still think like this. :/ And people act like women have no need for feminism anymore. This is exactly why we still need it. You can't even acknowledge that women could have possibly earned their own achievements.

I'm disgusted.

@Caution999

Do you see this Caution? :u This is called sexism.

@OpheliaAdenade

Yes, yes I do. :P
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Webmaster4531 posted...

What do conservatives think it should mean?

Equal opportunity under the law. Things such as bonus points for being born the right race is abhorrent.
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I like how this topic was basically a bunch of non-liberal people gladhanding each other at the start.
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I just know that I've worked for everything that I have. >:U I did the work, not my vagina! My vagina had nothing to do with it! How dare anyone say I didn't work for my things!

That'd be like me trying to say guys only achieve the things they do because of the patriarchy handing stuff to them.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

GreatEvilEmpire posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

It is pretty obvious if you ask me. Most women don't like jobs like that. Just like how most guys don't want to be hairdressers, makeup artists, or preschool teachers. There are always going to be outliers though, like dudes who really want to be hairdressers or girls who really want to work construction. In general though, some jobs appeal to one sex more than the other.

You keep talking like that and people will start mistaking you for a conservative.

Not every democrat is on the crazy end of the political spectrum. :v You shouldn't make such assumptions.

The world needs more reasonable people like you.
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Outcome.

The only practical meaning is equality under the law. We won't have equal opportunity. Some people have super high IQs, some are great looking, and some are born to 2 responsible parents that love each other and their child. Liberals want to keep growing government until there is no difference in outcome or opportunity, so they will grow government until it collapses under its own weight.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

I just know that I've worked for everything that I have. >:U I did the work, not my vagina! My vagina had nothing to do with it! How dare anyone say I didn't work for my things!

That'd be like me trying to say guys only achieve the things they do because of the patriarchy handing stuff to them.

And most reasonable people understand that. From both sides of the political spectrum. But it's easier to argue gender or race is a preventative measure and then make assumptions about how said groups can't or can make the advances they need in life to survive. Because it is easier than handling each individual as just that. That means you have to try and understand individual people's plight in life rather than make easy generalizations from your keyboard. There's more effort involved, and political discussion has become really lazy and unintelligent, as many member from both parties only have the desire to push agendas and blindly follow their party.
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Equity.

I.e. rearranging the social order by bringing some up and others down.
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I saw at least a one or two responses from actual communists who want equal resource distribution. I wonder if they thought about the day after the revolution. So you murder, steal, and destroy as much as it takes to get everybody on a level playing field. But from there people will accumulate resources at uneven rates. Do you spend trillions to monitor everybody like they are terrorists? "Hey are you trying to build something new? Off to the gulag with you, capitalist."
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Communism
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Equality of outcome. It basically defines modern day american liberalism.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

so basically you think women can't perform the same as men or produce the same results as men, right?

Pretty much. Same goes for the opposite though. Men and Women are very different. To act like they're not is the mistake.
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Knowledge_King posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

so basically you think women can't perform the same as men or produce the same results as men, right?

Pretty much. Same goes for the opposite though. Men and Women are very different. To act like they're not is the mistake.

I'm not saying that men and women aren't different. :v But there are some jobs that can be performed equally well by both sexes. That's undeniable.Like for instance, teaching. Both men and women are capable of being great teachers.

Just think about nursing for instance. That's a traditionally female-dominated field of work, but there are men who excel at it just the same as women. :v There is barely any stigma left against male nurses at this point because of how common it is.
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Because Ophelia, what women can do even a young person can do it. Nursing is crazy but not Engineer, physic, medicine, stem and etc level. Why do you think women avoid that feel? All of the hardest is performed by males. You women can't even crazy stuff like sewage management, working down under, waste management and so on.

Men and women are completely different. Maybe office jobs we probably can do on the same level. Men dominated in the most physically demanding, mentally demanding and consumption and what not. This is ain't a diss song but a real song.

Ghost_Of_Donkey posted...

Because Ophelia, what women can do even a young person can do it. Nursing is crazy but not Engineer, physic, medicine, stem and etc level. Why do you think women avoid that feel? All of the hardest is performed by males. You women can't even crazy stuff like sewage management, working down under, waste management and so on.

Men and women are completely different. Maybe office jobs we probably can do on the same level. Men dominated in the most physically demanding, mentally demanding and consumption and what not. This is ain't a diss song but a real song.

And you wonder why we're not friends anymore. :v You're gross.
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Ghost_Of_Donkey posted...

Because Ophelia, what women can do even a young person can do it. Nursing is crazy but not Engineer, physic, medicine, stem and etc level. Why do you think women avoid that feel? All of the hardest is performed by males. You women can't even crazy stuff like sewage management, working down under, waste management and so on.

Men and women are completely different. Maybe office jobs we probably can do on the same level. Men dominated in the most physically demanding, mentally demanding and consumption and what not. This is ain't a diss song but a real song.

Wow...
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Zeeak4444 posted...

That_Happened posted...

legendary_zell posted...

I feel like some of you people have never even talked to a liberal the way you strawman them

Keep in mind who your audience is: a good number of socially anxious shut ins with admitted mental health issues. Of course they've never actually talked to a liberal, or ANYONE for that matter. If it's not on the computer in meme form to many of these folks, it doesn't exist.

I hear that a lot and have seen a few users myself but is this really true? I don't mean for people like Zik that say really weird shit and defend it in an even more weird way.

We've had several recent polls about mental illness, and in all cases about 60-70% of voters on CE admit they either have been diagnosed with a mental illness or they believe they have one. And in cases where people have posted about it, "social anxiety" comes up more than almost any other issue (depression and ocd are other common factors).
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TrollSlayer11 posted...

Not a company/corporation in the world wants to pay workers more for doing the same job. This is basic economics and financial common sense.

businesses don't behave perfectly rationally

for instance, if businesses were perfectly rational, we would see huge pay cuts rather than or in addition to massive layoffs in response to a recession. but in practice wages typically do not go down, especially for current employees. there is no purely economic reason for this, to understand it you need to understand something about psychology (the issue is that workers won't accept a pay cut even if it is to save their jobs)

similarly there might be reasons that women are undervalued that aren't self-correcting, even if there is a financial incentive to correct them
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I hate the word equality because it does not exist in the real world. There is never going to be a perfect utopia where everyone is equal...human diversity guarantees it. People are different, different cultures, abilities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses.

All we can hope for is a government that has no sides..and protects everyone to the same degree. If you are qualified for a job then you should have the same chance to be called for an interview regardless of race or gender or beliefs. Yes there must be laws to protect people from racism and sexism in the workplace and society.

I think fairness is the word i would use. Can the world be fair one day? Yes I believe if you have the right laws and correct enforcement of those laws..but all people being equal is a Pipedream. Our biggest problem is the people we choose to lead us are corrupt, unqualified, and biased..left or right, its all BS
..a government should have no side..but the side of the people.
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utarefson posted...

I hate the word equality because it does not exist in the real world. There is never going to be a perfect utopia where everyone is equal...human diversity guarantees it. People are different, different cultures, abilities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses.

nobody wants this hypothetical absolute equality.

what liberals want are equal rights, not equal everything.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

utarefson posted...

I hate the word equality because it does not exist in the real world. There is never going to be a perfect utopia where everyone is equal...human diversity guarantees it. People are different, different cultures, abilities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses.

nobody wants this hypothetical absolute equality.

what liberals want are equal rights, not equal everything.

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Equality to liberals means dragging down instead of rising above.
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

Good question. If they could go 3 sentences without throwing out ad hominem grenades we might get an answer.

Babbys first logical fallacy
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Kineth posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

utarefson posted...

I hate the word equality because it does not exist in the real world. There is never going to be a perfect utopia where everyone is equal...human diversity guarantees it. People are different, different cultures, abilities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses.

nobody wants this hypothetical absolute equality.

what liberals want are equal rights, not equal everything.

Equal rights is a fair enough thing to want. Luckily we have it :)

Romes187 posted...

Kineth posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

utarefson posted...

I hate the word equality because it does not exist in the real world. There is never going to be a perfect utopia where everyone is equal...human diversity guarantees it. People are different, different cultures, abilities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses.

nobody wants this hypothetical absolute equality.

what liberals want are equal rights, not equal everything.

Equal rights is a fair enough thing to want. Luckily we have it :)

except for if you're gay. :o because it's okay to fire someone because they're gay.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

except for if you're gay. :o because it's okay to fire someone because they're gay.

It should be okay to fire anyone for any reason whatsoever in a private business setting

Romes187 posted...

It should be okay to fire anyone for any reason whatsoever in a private business setting

Wrong. Workers have rights
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

Romes187 posted...

It should be okay to fire anyone for any reason whatsoever in a private business setting

Wrong. Workers have rights

See here's where we'll differ on a fundamental level.

Humans have rights in my opinion: life, liberty, and property

Worker's have those same three rights, but that is only because they are human as well. Nothing about the right to not be fired

Romes187 posted...

Kineth posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

utarefson posted...

I hate the word equality because it does not exist in the real world. There is never going to be a perfect utopia where everyone is equal...human diversity guarantees it. People are different, different cultures, abilities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses.

nobody wants this hypothetical absolute equality.

what liberals want are equal rights, not equal everything.

Equal rights is a fair enough thing to want. Luckily we have it :)

Actually, no we don't.
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Kineth posted...

Actually, no we don't.

Oh my mistake

Romes187 posted...

Kineth posted...

Actually, no we don't.

Oh my mistake

It's alright. I forgive you.
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Kineth posted...

It's alright. I forgive you.

Just for sport, could you expand on your point there? In the interest of discourse