Current Events > Penn Professor defends traditional values. 33 profs write letter condemning her.

(+) Yeah! (+)

80/80

"Too few Americans are qualified for the jobs available. Male working-age labor-force participation is at Depression-era lows. Opioid abuse is widespread. Homicidal violence plagues inner cities. Almost half of all children are born out of wedlock, and even more are raised by single mothers. Many college students lack basic skills, and high school students rank below those from two dozen other countries.

The causes of these phenomena are multiple and complex, but implicated in these and other maladies is the breakdown of the country’s bourgeois culture.

That culture laid out the script we all were supposed to follow: Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake. Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness. Go the extra mile for your employer or client. Be a patriot, ready to serve the country. Be neighborly, civic-minded, and charitable. Avoid coarse language in public. Be respectful of authority. Eschew substance abuse and crime."

Those were the values that Amy Wax defended in this article: http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/commentary/paying-the-price-for-breakdown-of-the-countrys-bourgeois-culture-20170809.html

In response 33 of her fellow co-workers at Penn, under pressure from activists groups wrote a letter that didn't address any of the arguments she made but simply stated things like:

"We write to condemn recent statements our colleague Amy Wax, the Robert Mundheim Professor of Law at Penn Law School, has made in popular media pieces," and "We categorically reject Wax’s claims."
http://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/open-letter-penn-law-faculty

Meanwhile, not one of the 33 professors offered a single slice of evidence to contradict what she said. In today's university, even law professors do not need to supply evidence to support their liberal beliefs, outrage and conviction are enough.

Sad!
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I only disagree with: staying with someone solely because of kids even if you despise the SO.

Go the extra mile only if you're being paid well for it.

Be a patriot doesn't have to be a necessity. Sometimes people are content with not being nationalists.

Everything else seems ok.
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LightningAce11 posted...

I only disagree with: staying with someone solely because of kids even if you despise the SO.

Go the extra mile only if you're being paid well for it.

Be a patriot doesn't have to be a necessity. Sometimes people are content with not being nationalists.

Everything else seems ok.

The point is not about whether the values are worth promoting or not, but the fact that a professor cannot promote values that most people think are quite normal without not just students protesting, but her fellow faculty members publicizing a letter to condemn her. That is not what a university is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about rational debate and inquiry.
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it's almost like they want this country to collapse

FLUFFYGERM posted...

it's almost like they want this country to collapse

You have to think they do.

Plenty of research out there shows the benefits of raising a children in a two person household. Yet even mentioning this claim and providing support for it, merits you a "categorical" rejection without any evidence to the contrary provided.

Shouldn't the emphasis be on doing what's best for those children and encouraging the value systems that will leave them better off?
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"Too few Americans are qualified for the jobs available. Male working-age labor-force participation is at Depression-era lows. Opioid abuse is widespread. Homicidal violence plagues inner cities. Almost half of all children are born out of wedlock, and even more are raised by single mothers. Many college students lack basic skills, and high school students rank below those from two dozen other countries."

Ascribing these problems to a supposed shift in cultural values rather than material issues (for example, the fact that union jobs got replaced with Uber gigs, or that education budgets have been gutted basically everywhere) seems misguided. Maybe people aren't getting married anymore because a job no longer provides the long-term financial stability it once did.

Also, violence is down.

http://mattbruenig.com/2017/07/31/the-success-sequence-is-about-cultural-beefs-not-poverty/
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Nothing wrong with what she did. Nothing wrong with what they did either

I'm trying to figure out what part of that letter they condemn lol
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Antifar posted...

Maybe people aren't getting married anymore because a job no longer provides the long-term financial stability it once did.

nonsense. it's much easier to grow financially if you're married, assuming you're going to be living with room mates otherwise anyway.

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.
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Antifar posted...

"Too few Americans are qualified for the jobs available. Male working-age labor-force participation is at Depression-era lows. Opioid abuse is widespread. Homicidal violence plagues inner cities. Almost half of all children are born out of wedlock, and even more are raised by single mothers. Many college students lack basic skills, and high school students rank below those from two dozen other countries."

Ascribing these problems to a supposed shift in cultural values rather than material issues (for example, the fact that union jobs got replaced with Uber gigs, or that education budgets have been gutted basically everywhere) seems misguided. Maybe people aren't getting married anymore because a job no longer provides the long-term financial stability it once did.

Also, violence is down.

http://mattbruenig.com/2017/07/31/the-success-sequence-is-about-cultural-beefs-not-poverty/

Conditions and culture are not mutually exclusive factors. For example, Japan is subject to many of the same economic conditions that affect the Western nations, and have seen their fertility rate decline as well as economic security. Yet in their country only a measly 2% of children are born out of wedlock because of strong family values.

But, again, this is all besides the point. You may be right, and perhaps those professors are as well. But why is it that Antifar, a random user on GameFAQs can attempt to support his claims, but 33 law professors at one of the most elite universities in the country can't do the same when facing someone from their own class?
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Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

Well then >_>

FLUFFYGERM posted...

nonsense. it's much easier to grow financially if you're married, assuming you're going to be living with room mates otherwise anyway.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/americans-arent-getting-married-anymore/

The recession and slow recovery have led many young people to delay striking out on their own and likely to delay marriage as well. In the Pew survey, young adults disproportionately cited lack of financial security as their main reason for not getting married.

http://splinternews.com/heres-why-fewer-americans-are-getting-married-1793842524

Never-married women overwhelmingly value finding a spouse with a steady job, but there's a serious shortage of employed young men. In 1960, 93 percent of young men aged 25 to 34 were working. In 2012, it was 82 percent, according to the report.

Pew also offers this depressing statistic: In 2012, if every never-married young woman wanted to find a never-married man with a job, nine percent would fail because there are simply not enough men in the target group.

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Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

That was not in the Inquirer article. Also, there is nothing wrong with saying that certain cultural norms are superior. Do you think the cultural norm present in some cultures of female genital mutilation is A-okay? Of course not. This is obvious, and not even worth discussing.

If they think that she is wrong about certain cultures having better norms; they should feel free to argue against it. That said, many of the cultural values she promotes are not exclusive to Europeans or Anglo-Protestants. Chinese or Japanese culture shares many of those same values, and I'm sure many other cultures do as well.
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Callixtus posted...

That was not in the Inquirer article.

It was in the other article you linked to
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Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

And /endtopic
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

And /endtopic

It's really not an /endtopic. Stating that certain cultures have superior norms is not an unreasonable belief. Unless, you think cultures with female genital mutilation are just as good as those without it.
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Antifar posted...

Callixtus posted...

That was not in the Inquirer article.

It was in the other article you linked to

Fair enough.

But again. There is nothing inherently wrong with saying that certain cultures have superior values. She also went on to clarify that "bourgeois values aren’t just for white people" and that white people aren't superior.
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/08/11/penn-amy-wax-op-ed/#vquS2Jwf4O1CQFAq.99"
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Saying "certain cultures have superior norms in certain aspects" =/= saying "Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans, because Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.", no matter how many times you try to rephrase it
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

Saying "certain cultures have superior norms in certain aspects" =/= saying "Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans, because Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.", no matter how many times you try to rephrase it

If you read her article you would realize that's she's talking about success in a 21st century economy. In fact, she quite literally says so:

"The culture of the Plains Indians was designed for nomadic hunters, but is not suited to a First World, 21st-century environment. Nor are the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-“acting white” rap culture of inner-city blacks; the anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants. These cultural orientations are not only incompatible with what an advanced free-market economy and a viable democracy require, they are also destructive of a sense of solidarity and reciprocity among Americans. "

Now obviously "everyone" doesn't want to go to Western countries. That was obviously an exaggeration. But she is not wrong that there are a large amount of people that are trying to get into these countries, and it is not wrong to wonder what it is about these countries that made them so successful and attractive in the first place. Suggesting that the certain values of the European groups that tend to dominate these countries is a causal explanation for their continued success and attractiveness is not an absurd argument to make, no matter how you try to spin it.

And if these arguments are as blatantly false as some people seem to think, why didn't these professors dismantle them right away? It should have been easy.
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

And /endtopic

I mean is she wrong though?

People aren't exactly trying to immigrate in droves to any countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America, etc.

They all want to go to North America or Europe.
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For the most part we are more educated and having a harder time finding work that pay for that education. And the overall crime rate is down.
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gamer167 posted...

I mean is she wrong though?

People aren't exactly trying immigrate in droves to any countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America, etc.

Well Europeans/Americans went to Africa in droves fucked up the place and now bitching about them. Also you guys are doing a great job fucking up the middle east too.
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gamer167 posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

And /endtopic

I mean is she wrong though?

People aren't exactly trying to immigrate in droves to any countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America, etc.

They all want to go to North America or Europe.

She's not wrong. At all.

This is SOP for certain people lately. "it doesn't agree with me SO IT'S RACIST/LATEST BUZZWORD AND WE MUST SILENCE ALL DISSENT"
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VectorChaos posted...

gamer167 posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

And /endtopic

I mean is she wrong though?

People aren't exactly trying to immigrate in droves to any countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America, etc.

They all want to go to North America or Europe.

She's not wrong. At all.

This is SOP for certain people lately. "it doesn't agree with me SO IT'S RACIST/LATEST BUZZWORD AND WE MUST SILENCE ALL DISSENT"

Wouldn't you say that leaving that bit out does actually change the character of what she was saying? It is not nearly as benign as you were presenting it.

The truth is brutal and no one can dispute it. 33 professors were virtue signaling and not one of them would serve as an example and leave this country for a country in the Middle East or Africa.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

VectorChaos posted...

gamer167 posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

And /endtopic

I mean is she wrong though?

People aren't exactly trying to immigrate in droves to any countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America, etc.

They all want to go to North America or Europe.

She's not wrong. At all.

This is SOP for certain people lately. "it doesn't agree with me SO IT'S RACIST/LATEST BUZZWORD AND WE MUST SILENCE ALL DISSENT"

Wouldn't you say that leaving that bit out does actually change the character of what she was saying? It is not nearly as benign as you were presenting it.

Why?
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I read about this when the story broke a few weeks ago and agree pretty much entirely with the Penn professor. I think this cultural relativism nonsense that the left holds as a virtue is completely toxic. Some cultures are, quite frankly, superior to others. There is nothing enlightened or progressive about tolerating a cultural with oppressive or archaic values.
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Axiom posted...

Antifar posted...

In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.”

That's, uh, an interesting bit to have left out of the OP, imo.

Well then >_>

And it's also correct.
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cjsdowg posted...

Well Europeans/Americans went to Africa in droves fucked up the place and now bitching about them.

The most progressive and advanced cities in Africa are the ones that were under colonial rule. The Europeans did many fucked up things during that period, but holding back cultural progress was not one of them.
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The Admiral posted...

I read about this when the story broke a few weeks ago and agree pretty much entirely with the Penn professor. I think this cultural relativism nonsense that the left holds as a virtue is completely toxic. Some cultures are, quite frankly, superior to others. There is nothing enlightened or progressive about tolerating a cultural with oppressive or archaic values.

But she wants us to have archaic values. Old Western culture might be a lot better than some Middle Eastern Sharia nation, but she still just comes off as another (likely Christian) miserable person whining about the destruction of traditional American values. When were these good ol' days again?
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VectorChaos posted...

Why?

Put yourself in the other person's shoes for a second. Imagine if a Hispanic person said, "Taking off your shoes helps keep the house clean" versus "Taking off your shoes helps keep the house clean and this is why Hispanic culture is superior to all others!"... would you agree that one is way more needlessly confrontational to you than the other?

hockeybub89 posted...

The Admiral posted...

I read about this when the story broke a few weeks ago and agree pretty much entirely with the Penn professor. I think this cultural relativism nonsense that the left holds as a virtue is completely toxic. Some cultures are, quite frankly, superior to others. There is nothing enlightened or progressive about tolerating a cultural with oppressive or archaic values.

But she wants us to have archaic values. Old Western culture might be a lot better than some Middle Eastern Sharia nation, but she still just comes off as another (likely Christian) miserable person whining about the destruction of traditional American values. When were these good ol' days again?

"Traditional American values" like a nuclear family and a working population of young men are clearly superior no matter how you want to look at it. Literally every metric supports that.
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But she's right about a lot of what she said. If people would keep it in their pants there wouldn't be single parents everywhere. You know what else single parents usually are? Broke. Broke people raise broke children. And that brings the economy down.
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The Admiral posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

The Admiral posted...

I read about this when the story broke a few weeks ago and agree pretty much entirely with the Penn professor. I think this cultural relativism nonsense that the left holds as a virtue is completely toxic. Some cultures are, quite frankly, superior to others. There is nothing enlightened or progressive about tolerating a cultural with oppressive or archaic values.

But she wants us to have archaic values. Old Western culture might be a lot better than some Middle Eastern Sharia nation, but she still just comes off as another (likely Christian) miserable person whining about the destruction of traditional American values. When were these good ol' days again?

"Traditional American values" like a nuclear family and a working population of young men are clearly superior no matter how you want to look at it. Literally every metric supports that.

No metric supports staying in loveless marriages for the sake of your kids. And we have plenty of capable adults to do work in this country. It seems a little bit off base to blame unemployment or recessions on some cultural shift in work ethic or whatever. You were right. Backwards societies are not progressive. This is why we need to leave traditional values in the dust as well. Society will only continue to get better if we continue to look forward.

You, like her, are drinking sensationalist Kool-Aid when it comes to the state of society.
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fan357 posted...

But she's right about a lot of what she said. If people would keep it in their pants there wouldn't be single parents everywhere.

The other side of this -- and I'm going to be critical of conservatives here -- is that the attempts to limit access birth control and abortion are incredibly damaging to society and to these values we claim are superior. Having kids you can't afford out of wedlock is a predictor of never every negative statistic you can imagine -- future poverty, criminality, lack of education, lower income, and depression. Conservatives who go on about the epidemic of single-parent families need to lay off the attacks on access to birth control.
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fan357 posted...

Broke. Broke people raise broke children. And that brings the economy down.

Is it possible that the economy results in broke people, not the other way around?
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Antifar posted...

fan357 posted...

Broke. Broke people raise broke children. And that brings the economy down.

Is it possible that the economy results in broke people, not the other way around?

Nope.
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A bad economy obviously doesn't help. The decline of unions is a big part of wage stagnation. But raising kids in a single parent household sets them at a huge disadvantage.
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I know it's very tempting to argue about the values at issue, but that really isn't what this topic is supposed to be about. It's about the fact that common center to center-right values are essentially anathema in the university setting, which views such beliefs as so far beyond the pale that they aren't even worth discussing, only condemnation. And remember some of the values we're talking about are as basic as "Work hard" or "Don't have a kid with someone that doesn't care."
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I imagine most if not all of them got nervous when she brought up white European societies. It's sad and scary that people won't even have a discussion about it. Social media has let extremists on both sides hijack the spotlight and I'm not sure what the solution to take it away from them is.
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The Admiral posted...

Antifar posted...

fan357 posted...

Broke. Broke people raise broke children. And that brings the economy down.

Is it possible that the economy results in broke people, not the other way around?

Nope.

Why not? Because that hurts the narrative of parents raising stupid, lazy millennials?
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fan357 posted...

I imagine most if not all of them got nervous when she brought up white European societies. It's sad and scary that people won't even have a discussion about it. Social media has let extremists on both sides hijack the spotlight and I'm not sure what the solution to take it away from them is.

Funny honest discussion. I have addressed how she was clearly wrong, without even getting her to her white power spill. It is funny that people on the right would defend people like her and complain about good people.
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I'm pretty liberal and I'm defending her.
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fan357 posted...

I'm pretty liberal and I'm defending her.

but she is clearly wrong.

Crime rate down.
Education Rate up.
People are working hard and long for relatively less.

All her points are based on emotions and what people think is going on and not what is really going on.

And for the European societies stuff, the literally held down other nations. We took out democratically elected leaders across the world and replaced with murderous war lords. You don't think they has an effect on places. And even with that Eurpean societies gave us a number of world wars that had an effect on places that were not involved.
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She is completely free correct in those types of values. Some things should change, like don't pressure marriage and children at all, it's no for everyone. We need to raise educational standards; no more dropping maths or allowing failing students to advance to the next grade. No more teaching that you can change your gender either.
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cjsdowg posted...

gamer167 posted...

I mean is she wrong though?

People aren't exactly trying immigrate in droves to any countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America, etc.

Well Europeans/Americans went to Africa in droves fucked up the place and now bitching about them. Also you guys are doing a great job fucking up the middle east too.

You guys?? Dude just shut your fucking mouth, you literally never know what you're talking about.
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Trigg3rH4ppy posted...

You guys?? Dude just shut your f***ing mouth, you literally never know what you're talking about.

What do you think that I got wrong.
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It just sounds like opinionated moral stances, who the fuck cares about them, and/or who agrees or disagrees with them.

Mostly just getting your panties in a twist because it seemingly comes from a place of "authority".
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cjsdowg posted...

Trigg3rH4ppy posted...

You guys?? Dude just shut your f***ing mouth, you literally never know what you're talking about.

What do you think that I got wrong.

What was in Africa before "whites" turned up oh ya it was already a shit hole with a Slave trade that was already well established for well over a thousand years.

But no it's all the white peoples fault.