Current Events > How religion helps our community - Churchgoers are less likely to commit crime.

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/no-time-for-crime-study-f_b_4384046.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2539100/How-religion-cuts-crime-Attending-church-makes-likely-shoplift-drugs-download-music-illegally.html

Violent crime decreased as greater numbers of people were religiously active in a community, according to a study analyzing crime and religion data from 182 counties in three states.

The effect was particularly pronounced in black violence in disadvantaged communities that are most likely to have the highest number of victims.

“In the big picture, religious presence seems to matter to the amount of violence and crime in a community,” says Jeffery Ulmer, a professor of sociology and crime, law and justice at Pennsylvania State University who led the county-level study. “It matters to blacks, whites and Latinos.”

Just don’t expect young men and women who are among the growing numbers of people who consider themselves “spiritual but not religious” to have the same moral inhibitions.

A separate Baylor University study of more than 15,000 people ages 18 to 28 found that while young adults who considered themselves religious were less likely than others to commit violent or property crimes, those who claimed to be spiritual but set apart from organized religion were more likely to engage in both types of criminal activity.

People who regularly visit a place of worship are less likely to get involved in low level crime and delinquency, according to new research.

A survey from Manchester University found a direct correlation between higher visits to religious places and lower crime figures, especially in relation to shoplifting, drug use and music piracy.

Researchers believe this is because religion not only teaches people about 'moral and behavioural norms', but also spending time with like-minded people makes it less likely they'll get mixed up with the 'wrong crowd'.

---

What about the priests though?
---

Of course there isn't any music piracy in religious areas because you don't go cruising the internet and stores looking for hymns.
---

bluezero posted...

What about the priests though?

Yes, that seems to be a pattern in the Catholic church, doesn't it? Well maybe if the Catholics actually read their Bibles...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A1-9&version=NLT

Yes, it is good to abstain from sexual relations. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.

The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.

Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. Yet each person has a special gift from God, of one kind or another.

So I say to those who aren’t married and to widows -- it’s better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust.

---

Vindris_SNH posted...

Yes, that seems to be a pattern in the Catholic church, doesn't it? Well maybe if the Catholics actually read their Bibles...

thank goodness that sex abuse scandals are exclusive to the catholic church and that no other denominations are capable of performing such acts
---

Romulox28 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

Yes, that seems to be a pattern in the Catholic church, doesn't it? Well maybe if the Catholics actually read their Bibles...

thank goodness that sex abuse scandals are exclusive to the catholic church and that no other denominations are capable of performing such acts

Oh no, don't assume that's what I think. Not at all. I'm aware that sex scandals occur across the full spectrum of religion. I was addressing the Catholic church specifically because it seems to happen there more frequently.
---

Vindris_SNH posted...

drug use

Who cares?

Vindris_SNH posted...

music piracy

Who cares?
---

should read: nobody is catching religious people committing crimes because nobody is looking for it
---

the latter day saints church bullshit is one big crime
---

This is a very funny article. The first bolded statement is a prime example of causation form correlation. Then the very last line says that it's because they spend time with like-minded people and wont get mixed with the "wrong crowd" because people that adorn the symbolism of religion can't have some pretty messed up ideologies and crime records.

You bolded the wrong part.

The second and third paragraph should be bolded not the parts you did in the OP.
---

Lonestar2000 posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

drug use

Who cares?

Vindris_SNH posted...

music piracy

Who cares?

Families and aspiring artists.
---

Not surprised these facts make some of you uncomfortable. Figured I'd start seeing excuses pretty quick. Like this:
Bok_Choi posted...

should read: nobody is catching religious people committing crimes because nobody is looking for it

---

What excuses though, did you even read the second line?

The effect was particularly pronounced in black violence in disadvantaged communities that are most likely to have the highest number of victims.

This article is trying to spin religious indoctrination as the cause of people making better choices, and that may be true because the threat of eternal damnation is pretty convincing, but it's also suggesting that the lack of religion is the cause of high crime rates. Is it not possible that any form of structured activities; organized sport, volunteering, school clubs can achieve the same thing when you live in a poor community? I guess we'll never know because we decided to go with correlation=causation at the very start.

How do you think the crime rates of satanists compare?

Hint: extremely low
---

Hexagon posted...

What excuses though, did you even read the second line?

The effect was particularly pronounced in black violence in disadvantaged communities that are most likely to have the highest number of victims.

This article is trying to spin religious indoctrination as the result of people making better choices, and that may be true because the threat of eternal damnation is a pretty convincing, but it's suggesting the lack of religion is the cause of high crime rates. Is it not possible that any form of structured activities; organized sport, volunteering, school clubs can achieve the same thing? I guess we'll never know because we decided to go with correlation=causation at the very start.

Well said.

Like I said in my post the fact TC didn't bold the second paragraph shows he even knows it's all bullshit.
---

Hexagon posted...

it's also suggesting that the lack of religion is the cause of high crime rates

The article is from Huffington Post. I guarantee you they're not trying to blame violence on a lack of religion. Nowhere in the article is that suggested. That's just your extremely biased imagination.

Hexagon posted...

we decided to go with correlation=causation at the very start

No one ever said this. The study proved a correlation; you can take that however you want.
---

Vindris_SNH posted...

Hexagon posted...

it's also suggesting that the lack of religion is the cause of high crime rates

The article is from Huffington Post. I guarantee you they're not trying to blame violence on a lack of religion. Nowhere in the article is that suggested. That's just your extremely biased imagination.

That's how correlation works. It's a straight line so it goes both ways; go one way crime goes down, go the other way crimes goes up.

Vindris_SNH posted...
I'm biased.

Yes, we know.
---

Zeeak4444 posted...

Like I said in my post the fact TC didn't bold the second paragraph shows he even knows it's all bullshit.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally misinterpreting the articles or if you're just that dense.
---

So basically

It doesn't

Nice to know
---

itachi15243 posted...

How do you think the crime rates of satanists compare?

Hint: extremely low

When you exclude all the murders, assaults, arson and crime in general.

Hexagon posted...

That's how correlation works. It's a straight line so it goes both ways; go one way crime goes down, go the other way crimes goes up.

And you seriously think that Huffington Post, a very liberally biased news site, is intending to suggest that we need more religion to reduce violence?

Hexagon posted...

You did. Right in your thread title. "Churchgoers are less likely to commit crime." This is a statement of causation.

It's clear you don't know what a statement of causation is. I was stating a statistical fact. Statistical facts do not prove that one thing was caused by another.
---

A lots of crimes that religious people commit go unreported. Instead of reporting them, religious people have the criminal speak to other church people and solve the issues so that they get better... like that guy on tv that molested his sisters.
---

Vindris_SNH posted...

And you seriously think that Huffington Post, a very liberally biased news site, is intending to suggest that we need more religion to reduce violence?

That is off-topic.

Vindris_SNH posted...

It's clear you don't know what a statement of causation is. I was stating a statistical fact. Statistical facts do not prove that one thing was caused by another.

There is no such thing as a "statistical fact" so you're in no position to tell me what I don't know. From both studies we know that as religious participation goes up, crimes go down. That is a correlation. Stating churchgoers are less likely to commit a crime is an assignment of the cause of the crime to religious participation. When it could have been, for example, "people that participate in routine social events are less likely to commit crimes". You assigned the cause. It wasn't the only possible one.

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

A lots of crimes that religious people commit go unreported. Instead of reporting them, religious people have the criminal speak to other church people and solve the issues so that they get better... like that guy on tv that molested his sisters.

A lot of crimes go unreported, period. Either you get caught, or you don't. Police aren't going to be reviewing a tape of some guy shoplifting and say, "Oh but I can tell he's a Christian so just let it slide."

That person who committed a crime and admitted it to their pastor or priest would have likely never even told anyone had they not been religious. Your point doesn't have any weight to it at all.
---

Hexagon posted...

That is off-topic.

How is that off topic? It is 100% relevant. The article does not suggest that we need more religion so that crime is reduced. The article is simply making an observation. You're making it a way bigger deal than it needs to be.

Hexagon posted...

There is no such thing as a "statistical fact" so you're in no position to tell me what I don't know. From both studies we know that as religious participation goes up, crimes go down. That is a correlation. Stating churchgoers are less likely to commit a crime is an assignment of the cause of the crime to religious participation. When it could have been, for example, "people that participate in routine social events are less likely to commit crimes". You assigned the cause. It wasn't the only possible one.

Since when is there no so such thing as statistical fact? What I mean by "statistical fact" is that there was something that was studied and proven to have a correlation to something else. People gather data and come up with conclusions and correlations. They collect information and come up with statistics. There are in fact statistical facts. For example: You roll a dice. What are the chances you roll a 1? 1 in 6. That is, as I'm using the term, a statistical fact. That doesn't mean it's actually a 1 in 6 chance; because it either rolls a 1 every 6th roll (on average), or it doesn't. Established chances of one thing possessing a particular property... that is a statistical fact, as I'm using the term. Did I define that well enough for you? I don't want to play this semantics game.

Stating "churchgoers are less likely to commit crime" is only saying exactly what the article is saying. Which is that people who regularly attend religious gatherings or ceremonies are less likely to be involved in crimes. At no point did I claim "going to church will, in fact, reduce the amount of crime you commit". There is a correlation between regularly attending church, and less crime. That's it. You can believe what you want about that.

You're reaching at this point in our debate.
---

Vindris_SNH posted...

There is a correlation between regularly attending church, and less crime. That's it.

- Churchgoers are less likely to commit crime.

The only dense person in this thread is you.

Hexagon posted...

Vindris_SNH posted...

There is a correlation between regularly attending church, and less crime. That's it.

Churchgoers are less likely to commit crime.

The only dense person in this thread is you.

"Churchgoers are less likely to commit crime" is a true statement because of the fact that there is a correlation between regularly attending church and committing less crime. You do a study that shows a correlation between lower crime rates and people regularly attending church. This establishes the fact that, statistically, churchgoers are less likely to commit a crime.

How are you not getting this?
---

As the number of black cars with painted flames traveling over 200 miles/hr on city streets increases, the number of speeding tickets issued by law enforcement increases.

Therefore if you have a black car with painted flames, you're more likely to get a speeding ticket.

How are you not getting this?

Hexagon posted...

As the number of black cars with painted flames traveling over 200 miles/hr on city streets increases, the number of speeding tickets issued by law enforcement increases.

Therefore if you have a black car with painted flames, you're more likely to get a speeding ticket.

How are you not getting this?

Your example does not correspond to the debate we're having.
---

Vindris_SNH posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

A lots of crimes that religious people commit go unreported. Instead of reporting them, religious people have the criminal speak to other church people and solve the issues so that they get better... like that guy on tv that molested his sisters.

A lot of crimes go unreported, period. Either you get caught, or you don't. Police aren't going to be reviewing a tape of some guy shoplifting and say, "Oh but I can tell he's a Christian so just let it slide."

That person who committed a crime and admitted it to their pastor or priest would have likely never even told anyone had they not been religious. Your point doesn't have any weight to it at all.

Are you abusing your own anus? I'm asking because nothing I said there was enough to make an anus bleed the way yours appears to be in that response.
---

Hexagon posted...

This article is trying to spin religious indoctrination as the cause of people making better choices, and that may be true because the threat of eternal damnation is pretty convincing, but it's also suggesting that the lack of religion is the cause of high crime rates. Is it not possible that any form of structured activities; organized sport, volunteering, school clubs can achieve the same thing when you live in a poor community? I guess we'll never know because we decided to go with correlation=causation at the very start.

This is what I like to call the "Sorority members have higher GPA on average" effect.

Basically anyone who lives on campus or is part of any organization, etc. puts more than the bare minimum effort into going to college, so they tend to have higher GPA than the alternative which is usually the people who don't really have any reason to be in college that also live at home. Which usually is the group of people who flame out in college.
---

Vindris_SNH posted...

Hexagon posted...

As the number of black cars with painted flames traveling over 200 miles/hr on city streets increases, the number of speeding tickets issued by law enforcement increases.

Therefore if you have a black car with painted flames, you're more likely to get a speeding ticket.

How are you not getting this?

Your example does not correspond to the debate we're having.

Then you need to reread your title. It's the exact same. You're literally associating the religion aspect of churchgoers, while ignoring the implied aspects of which I've given you so many by now.

Does this have anything to do with an increase in church activity keeping people more preoccupied so they have less opportunity to commit crimes in the first place? Isn't this the same thing that was found with an increase of more outreach and after school programs as well?
---

Hexagon posted...

Then you need to reread your title. It's the exact same. You're literally associating the religion aspect of churchgoers, while ignoring the implied aspects of which I've given you so many by now.

I've already explained that what you are accusing me of is wrong, and why it's wrong. If you haven't gotten it by now, you won't get it.
---

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.
---

A_Good_Boy posted...

Does this have anything to do with an increase in church activity keeping people more preoccupied so they have less opportunity to commit crimes in the first place? Isn't this the same thing that was found with an increase of more outreach and after school programs as well?

I'm sure that's part of the equation.

Here's how I look at it:
When you're actively part of a religious community that encourages peace and love, it is likely that you will make friends within your religious community. You are surrounded by people who are like-minded. Your friends encourage you to be a good person. Every human being desires to be accepted by his or her peers. You don't want to disappoint your church friends. And they continually encourage you to be a good person.

Almost all religions teach about peace, harmony, and love for people around you. When you get this idea drilled into your head every week, I think it makes sense that it's more likely for you to put these virtues into practice in your own life.
---

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

There's a reason very few have considered that... it is asinine.
---

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

And the Catholic Church molesting little boys is what....?
---

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

There's a reason very few have considered that... it is asinine.

No, more like people that are biased against religious belief are biased against religious belief. Hardly surprising.
---

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

And the Catholic Church molesting little boys is what....?

The "Catholic Church" never molested any boys. A few priests have. There is no evidence that Catholic priests have sexually abused children more than members of any other profession that has close contact with children or religious denomination for that matter, and the majority of children are abused by family members. So maybe family members are a force of evil, right?

The only distinguishing thing about the Catholic abuse cases was that a few bishops were not forthcoming, which is certainly unforgivable, but is not an argument against religious belief in any way, unless you follow the sort of fallacious reasoning common on these boards to point out the most outrageous elements of a particular group and ignore all examples to the contrary.
---

Callixtus posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

And the Catholic Church molesting little boys is what....?

The "Catholic Church" never molested any boys. A few priests have just like in any organization. There is no evidence that Catholic priests have sexually abused children more than members of any other profession that has close contact with children, and the majority of children are abused by family members. So maybe family members are a force of evil, right?

The only distinguishing thing about the Catholic abuse cases was that a few bishops were not forthcoming, which is certainly unforgivable, but is not an argument against religious belief in any way, unless you follow the sort of fallacious reasoning common on these boards to point out the most outrageous elements of a particular group and ignore all examples to the contrary.

You're contradicting yourself then.
---

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

And the Catholic Church molesting little boys is what....?

The "Catholic Church" never molested any boys. A few priests have just like in any organization. There is no evidence that Catholic priests have sexually abused children more than members of any other profession that has close contact with children, and the majority of children are abused by family members. So maybe family members are a force of evil, right?

The only distinguishing thing about the Catholic abuse cases was that a few bishops were not forthcoming, which is certainly unforgivable, but is not an argument against religious belief in any way, unless you follow the sort of fallacious reasoning common on these boards to point out the most outrageous elements of a particular group and ignore all examples to the contrary.

You're contradicting yourself then.

How am I contradicting myself? A few priests and a few bishops are not "The Catholic Church". They are not even "the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church". A handful of priests does not equal the hierarchy of the church.
---

Callixtus posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

And the Catholic Church molesting little boys is what....?

The "Catholic Church" never molested any boys. A few priests have just like in any organization. There is no evidence that Catholic priests have sexually abused children more than members of any other profession that has close contact with children, and the majority of children are abused by family members. So maybe family members are a force of evil, right?

The only distinguishing thing about the Catholic abuse cases was that a few bishops were not forthcoming, which is certainly unforgivable, but is not an argument against religious belief in any way, unless you follow the sort of fallacious reasoning common on these boards to point out the most outrageous elements of a particular group and ignore all examples to the contrary.

You're contradicting yourself then.

How am I contradicting myself? A few priests and a few bishops are not "The Catholic Church". They are not even "the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church". A handful of priests does not equal the hierarchy of the church.

You say that belief in God is a force for moral good while at the same time making excuses for the Catholic church being just as shitty as just about every other organization. If you don't have any sort of expectation that one of the Godliest organizations on the planet should be a beacon of moral fortitude then how does belief in God lend itself to being a moral good?
---

That's great but you have to consider the amoral Wall Street and bogus defense contractors and unprincipled politicians who are the main threat to church going. I mean what is the point if we can't have faith in common laws that are universal?
---

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Callixtus posted...

Everyone want to speculate about all sorts of crazy reasons why this correlation might exist, but very few have considered a rather simple one: belief in God is a force for moral good.

And the Catholic Church molesting little boys is what....?

The "Catholic Church" never molested any boys. A few priests have just like in any organization. There is no evidence that Catholic priests have sexually abused children more than members of any other profession that has close contact with children, and the majority of children are abused by family members. So maybe family members are a force of evil, right?

The only distinguishing thing about the Catholic abuse cases was that a few bishops were not forthcoming, which is certainly unforgivable, but is not an argument against religious belief in any way, unless you follow the sort of fallacious reasoning common on these boards to point out the most outrageous elements of a particular group and ignore all examples to the contrary.

You're contradicting yourself then.

How am I contradicting myself? A few priests and a few bishops are not "The Catholic Church". They are not even "the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church". A handful of priests does not equal the hierarchy of the church.

You say that belief in God is a force for moral good while at the same time making excuses for the Catholic church being just as shitty as just about every other organization. If you don't have any sort of expectation that one of the Godliest organizations on the planet should be a beacon of moral fortitude then how does belief in God lend itself to being a moral good?

I never said the Church wasn't nor did anything I say imply that the Church is not superior to most other organizations. I am merely dismissing the fallacious belief to which you are an adherent, that because an organization has a few bad apples that it is somehow altogether rotten. Even Jesus had Judas among his followers.
---

Everything has it's good and bad

If religion reduces crime, good for everyone but I'd rather more people see facts than a marginal decrease in reported crime. I think that'd be better for humanity in general
---

Callixtus posted...

The "Catholic Church" never molested any boys. A few priests have. There is no evidence that Catholic priests have sexually abused children more than members of any other profession that has close contact with children or religious denomination for that matter,

What does this passage mean to you?
---

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

There's a reason very few have considered that... it is asinine.

It's asinine to think that belief in God is a force for moral good? What a fantastically ignorant statement.

Considering that most religions teach adherents to live in peace and harmony with others, to love others, to treat others with respect, to treat others how you would like to be treated... Most religions teach you that God wants you to do all of these things.

And yet you say it is asinine to think that belief in God might be a force for moral good?
---