Current Events > Serious question, are all libertarians as crazy as fenderbender?

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ZMythos posted...

Libertarianism works until you introduce price elasticity

I don't understand how that follows
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fenderbender321 posted...

Rexdragon125 posted...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp1RD5XkAEpngc.jpg

That makes no sense. Big businesses don't step on people. They provide something people want. They have to constantly earn what they get.

Companies absolutely step on people.
Not even arugable.
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Balrog0 posted...

ZMythos posted...

Libertarianism works until you introduce price elasticity

I don't understand how that follows

Inelastic goods + unregulated market = consumer oppression

See also: Martin Shkreli
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Fender "I'm not going to think less of someone just because they support ethnic cleansing" Bender
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hockeybub89 posted...

Fender "I'm not going to think less of someone just because they support ethnic cleansing" Bender

yea, really, what's a little support of ethnic cleansing between friends anyway? :u
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One of my roommates in college was a Libertarian, he was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos i have ever met. He was nasty and never cleaned, stayed in his room the entire day playing video games, never had any girls over and was even an awkward prick to my other roommates GF (at the time) she would literally come in clean and cook us cookies and he would just say some random ass creeper shit around her. it got so bad to the point my other roommate called him out and straight up told him to stop talking to her in any capacity.

Also he only wore loose fitting khakis, im pretty sure he would be the kind of guy to drive a car into a crowd if he lost a game of Overwatch.
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darkjedilink posted...

YourAlt posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

I'm mostly just anti-violence if anything. I haven't called myself a libertarian in years.

I guess if you think it's weird to not want the government's hand in every little thing we do, and want to be left alone, and believe in respecting property and basic rights, then yeah libertarians are weird.

Libertarian philosophy makes the most sense to me. I've bounced around from believing in conservative philosophy and liberal philosophy, and have even looked at socialism and communism with an open mind. Libertarianism makes the most sense, simply because it allows society to actually have what it wants, while allowing the market to handle all the compromises.

Plus, there is literally nothing that can't possibly be achieved, built, produced, etc by free people doing things voluntarily. That's reality.

yea, I get that you like the concept. :u The problem is that it doesn't work in practice.

We've never really practiced it.

Because it's fucking impossible.

Not even close. Do you understand how markets work?

That's how I know it is impossible. Libertarianism is a bunch of contradictions masked in a guise of a hands-off free market system, preached by the uneducated.
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ZMythos posted...

Inelastic goods + unregulated market = consumer oppression

See also: Martin Shkreli

that seems like a terrible example for many reasons

for one thing, the minute he increased the price, competing products materialized for a much lower price. To the extent they are substitutable goods, the prices are elastic. To the extent they aren't substitutes, it's arguably because the government heavily subsidizes insurance markets and regulates new drugs entering the market

I'm not saying this is the case but what you just said definitely doesn't necessarily follow, nor is it easy to unproblematically link it up to price inelasticity or even the market
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Letron_James posted...

One of my roommates in college was a Libertarian, he was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos i have ever met. He was nasty and never cleaned, stayed in his room the entire game playing video games, never had any girls over and was even an awkward prick to my other roommates GF (at the time) she would literally come in clean and cook us cookies and he would just say some random ass creeper shit around her. it got so bad to the point my other roommate called him out and straight up told him to stop talking to her in any capacity.

Also he only wore loose fitting khakis, im pretty sure he would be the kind of guy to drive a car into a crowd if he lost a game of Overwatch.

Do you know if he posts on CE? That sounds awfully similar to a certain someone we all know.
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Samurontai posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

Gather around, everyone. It's story time.



Back in the days of Kings and dictators, some people were saying:

"ya know, I don't like this system where we just have this one guy who's in charge of everything until he dies and then that power is transferred to his son. We should put more faith and trust into the average person and form some sort of government where people can vote for who they want to rule over us."

But to that, most people said:

"That would never work. You can't trust the average person to pick somebody to rule over us. You give the average guy some freedom and power, and he's going to fuck it up every single time. Having a king is the only way society can work."

But then one day, the sort of system that some people were talking about became reality. And it worked...and it was better than having a king! As it turned out...self interest is society's interest.

Wtf are you talking about

Have you never heard of the Roman Republic or Carthage, or any number of ancient civilizations or some shit?

I told you he is fucking weird, lol.
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I don't understand what libertarianism is
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

Letron_James posted...

One of my roommates in college was a Libertarian, he was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos i have ever met. He was nasty and never cleaned, stayed in his room the entire game playing video games, never had any girls over and was even an awkward prick to my other roommates GF (at the time) she would literally come in clean and cook us cookies and he would just say some random ass creeper shit around her. it got so bad to the point my other roommate called him out and straight up told him to stop talking to her in any capacity.

Also he only wore loose fitting khakis, im pretty sure he would be the kind of guy to drive a car into a crowd if he lost a game of Overwatch.

Do you know if he posts on CE? That sounds awfully similar to a certain someone we all know.

It really wouldn't surprise me if he posts here
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YookaLaylee posted...

I don't understand what libertarianism is

Snowflake Republicans.
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fenderbender321 posted...

LordRazziel posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

Rexdragon125 posted...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp1RD5XkAEpngc.jpg

That makes no sense. Big businesses don't step on people. They provide something people want. They have to constantly earn what they get.

Companies absolutely step on people.
Not even arugable.

Depends on your definition of "step on", which should be whether or not companies commit acts or threats of violence against people.

Like selling them products they know are harmful, but cover it up?
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ZMythos posted...

Balrog0 posted...

ZMythos posted...

Libertarianism works until you introduce price elasticity

I don't understand how that follows

Inelastic goods + unregulated market = consumer oppression

See also: Martin Shkreli

The fact that you're citing Martin Shkreli when referring to an "unregulated market" is astounding. The FDA makes drugs extremely expensive to bring to market, and then patent laws keep out competition for a long time.
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fenderbender321 posted...

One of my roommates in college was a liberal. He was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos I have ever met. He would poop on the toilet seat and not even clean it up. He was violent, and rarely ever recycled. He didn't have his license because he said driving was too hard. One time I baked him these cookies, and he ate them all in one sitting because he's such a disgusting glutton.

Sounds like we lived together
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Letron_James posted...

One of my roommates in college was a Libertarian, he was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos i have ever met. He was nasty and never cleaned, stayed in his room the entire day playing video games, never had any girls over and was even an awkward prick to my other roommates GF (at the time) she would literally come in clean and cook us cookies and he would just say some random ass creeper shit around her. it got so bad to the point my other roommate called him out and straight up told him to stop talking to her in any capacity.

Also he only wore loose fitting khakis, im pretty sure he would be the kind of guy to drive a car into a crowd if he lost a game of Overwatch.

All because he was libertarian obviously. That has to be the reason. Also because of your personal experience I think it's safe to say that only libertarians are like this, and a statistically significant portion of them too.
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fenderbender321 posted...

The free market solution, of course, would be for a company to emerge that tests products. And that company's reputation for ensuring safety will be the only thing that allows it to stay in business. So if an increase in product safety is valued by society, people will pay more money for products that have been tested and certified by an independent company that specializes in doing just that.

Seems familiar somehow...
http://www.ul.com/

fenderbender321 posted...

LordRazziel posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

LordRazziel posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

Rexdragon125 posted...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp1RD5XkAEpngc.jpg

That makes no sense. Big businesses don't step on people. They provide something people want. They have to constantly earn what they get.

Companies absolutely step on people.
Not even arugable.

Depends on your definition of "step on", which should be whether or not companies commit acts or threats of violence against people.

Like selling them products they know are harmful, but cover it up?

You really can't hide harmful products from the public. If the harm is there, people will be able to correlate it with something and figure out why it's bad.

The free market solution, of course, would be for a company to emerge that tests products. And that company's reputation for ensuring safety will be the only thing that allows it to stay in business. So if an increase in product safety is valued by society, people will pay more money for products that have been tested and certified by an independent company that specializes in doing just that.

So, it's fine if they knowingly sell us poison, because we can figure out that it's killing us?
What about when companies used pinkertons to terrorise people for joining unions?
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fenderbender321 posted...

You really can't hide harmful products from the public.

In this loon's head, cigarettes never existed.

Because of lying tobacco companies there are STILL people who don't believe smoking causes lung cancer and emphysema.
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fenderbender321 posted...

One of my roommates in college was a liberal. He was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos I have ever met. He would poop on the toilet seat and not even clean it up. He was violent, and rarely ever recycled. He didn't have his license because he said driving was too hard. One time I baked him these cookies, and he ate them all in one sitting because he's such a disgusting glutton.

See, folks, this guy is fucking weird.

"He was violent, and rarely recycled"

I only hope this bad attempt at being funny is that - a joke
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MrPeppers posted...

Letron_James posted...

One of my roommates in college was a Libertarian, he was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos i have ever met. He was nasty and never cleaned, stayed in his room the entire day playing video games, never had any girls over and was even an awkward prick to my other roommates GF (at the time) she would literally come in clean and cook us cookies and he would just say some random ass creeper shit around her. it got so bad to the point my other roommate called him out and straight up told him to stop talking to her in any capacity.

Also he only wore loose fitting khakis, im pretty sure he would be the kind of guy to drive a car into a crowd if he lost a game of Overwatch.

All because he was libertarian obviously. That has to be the reason. Also because of your personal experience I think it's safe to say that only libertarians are like this, and a statistically significant portion of them too.

No what im saying is that a lot of chubbier white guys who are foreveralone virgins who happen to be Libertarians also happen to be fucking weirdos since their political beliefs are fucking stupid and contradictory at every angle possible. Just accept it already, its a stupid political belief in the same vain as the far left wackos who think theres 3723918 different types of genders when scientifically there are two. Chances are if you are white, overweight, anti social, and generally awkward while being from the south you will fall into the wacko spectrum of political beliefs might be a hard pill to swallow but its true
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ToonLinkWithGun posted...

Never knew how much of a child he was until he took office.

How
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fenderbender321 posted...

LordRazziel posted...

So, it's fine if they knowingly sell us poison, because we can figure out that it's killing us?

If it was fine to sell poison, people wouldn't care about finding out if it was killing them.

Do you think there are companies using all their legal might to silence anyone that tries to to expose them.
Even if you don't think so, there are.
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fenderbender321 posted...

That_Happened posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

You really can't hide harmful products from the public.

In this loon's head, cigarettes never existed.

Because of lying tobacco companies there are STILL people who don't believe smoking causes lung cancer and emphysema.

Couple things to consider, here:

No. There is nothing to consider here. You said "you can't hide harmful product from the public" but I gave you a very clear and obvious example of when dozens of companies hid the fact that their products were harmful for decades. They even released cigarettes laced with asbestos and called it a health benefit. And it took way too long for anyone to regulate a countermeasure. And that's only the most obvious example. Companies literally do this all the time.

So gtfoh with that bullshit.
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Letron_James posted...

MrPeppers posted...

Letron_James posted...

One of my roommates in college was a Libertarian, he was legitimately one of the most awkward introverted weirdos i have ever met. He was nasty and never cleaned, stayed in his room the entire day playing video games, never had any girls over and was even an awkward prick to my other roommates GF (at the time) she would literally come in clean and cook us cookies and he would just say some random ass creeper shit around her. it got so bad to the point my other roommate called him out and straight up told him to stop talking to her in any capacity.

Also he only wore loose fitting khakis, im pretty sure he would be the kind of guy to drive a car into a crowd if he lost a game of Overwatch.

All because he was libertarian obviously. That has to be the reason. Also because of your personal experience I think it's safe to say that only libertarians are like this, and a statistically significant portion of them too.

No what im saying is that a lot of chubbier white guys who are foreveralone virgins who happen to be Libertarians also happen to be fucking weirdos since their political beliefs are fucking stupid and contradictory at every angle possible. Just accept it already, its a stupid political belief in the same vain as the far left wackos who think theres 3723918 different types of genders when scientifically there are two. Chances are if you are white, overweight, anti social, and generally awkward while being from the south you will fall into the wacko spectrum of political beliefs might be a hard pill to swallow but its true

Based off of... what evidence exactly? Like I get personal anecdote is a very influential thing when making opinions, and it's tempting to make a connection because it's really easy to knock a caricature down; but a few bad exchanges with a fat neckbeard does not make him representative of the ideology. I consider myself more of a centrist so I don't really have dog in this fight but whatevs
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What about companies that try o hide the fact that the chemichals they are putting into the ater are killing people?
Also, you skipped the part about the companies using Pinkertons as terrorists.

I'm not saying your ideology wrong - But you are acting as though, through it, there is an answer to everything. I don't believe such an ideology to exist.
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As a libertarian, I feel the movement has been somewhat hijacked by anarcho-capitalists. Libertarians believe in LIMITED and RESTRICTED government, not the complete abolishment of government.

Back in the 1990s, all you democrats were against gay marriage, but the libertarians werent. Today youre still against drugs (even if a lot of dems are for weed, most all still oppose ending the drug war completely) and youre major warhawks (just look at all the bombs Obama dropped). The libertarians have always been for gay rights, for ending the drug war, for non-interventionist foreign policy, for abortion rights (although there is a sub-group of pro-life libertarians, most of us, as well as the official US Libertarian party, are pro-choice) and so on.
Libertarianism is consistent, because unlike the Dems and GOP, Libertarianism is a philosophy that stands on principle. I imagine most everyday people agree with libertarians on the social side of things. However, when it comes to economics, a good majority of Americans (In my opinion) have been brainwashed to think the government is on their side. People always talk shit about the "corporations, man" but they dont realize the government creates mega corporations through manipulating the economy with taxes(and tax breaks/loopholes), regulations that put small/local businesses out of business, etc. The free market gets blamed for inequality and poverty, yet there hasnt been a genuine free market in the U.S. The government has always manipulated the economy and picked winners and losers.
From a Libertarian perspective, we want as little government as possible because governments are CORRUPT (something else I think most everyday people would agree with). Government has killed more innocent people than any other group/institution/etc. So why would we want these corrupt elites sticking their government sponsored dicks into the economy? Ultimately I think most people have libertarian leanings (even if they dont know it), but unfortunately many people dont care and/or just dont understand politics.

fenderbender321 posted...

LordRazziel posted...

What about companies that try o hide the fact that the chemichals they are putting into the ater are killing people?
Also, you skipped the part about the companies using Pinkertons as terrorists.

I'm not saying your ideology wrong - But you are acting as though, through it, there is an answer to everything. I don't believe such an ideology to exist.

I think that if government has a role in protecting people and property from harm, that there could be justification in having the government protect the air from harmful pollutants.

And sorry, I was going to respond to that. It's a tough question, because the way unions exist today would be different than how they would exist in a more free market. Essentially, there are specific laws that are upheld by our government that enable unions to have much more power than simply organizing with your co-workers to do some collective bargaining.

And yeah, I might make it sound easy, but solutions are often never easy. When we turn to government to solve, it's never easy either. I don't mean to sound that it would be just a total night and day difference, and that the free market can solve everything so much easier...just that it's a better way to do it because it would more accurately reflect the values of society.

Yeah, but you asked when has company ever stepped on people using violence. I gave an example. If they can, they will. Like you said, it isn't black and white. The government can't solve all our problems, but sometimes you need their might. You also need protection from it.
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Libertarianism seems "weird" because it runs counter to what you learn in school. That doesn't prove the ideology right or wrong. It sounds strange at first to hear that something the government has managed for your entire life could be handled better in the market for the same reason it would be weird for a person in 1950s Moscow to hear how the market provides food more efficiently than the government.
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fenderbender321 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

ZMythos posted...

Balrog0 posted...

ZMythos posted...

Libertarianism works until you introduce price elasticity

I don't understand how that follows

Inelastic goods + unregulated market = consumer oppression

See also: Martin Shkreli

The fact that you're citing Martin Shkreli when referring to an "unregulated market" is astounding. The FDA makes drugs extremely expensive to bring to market, and then patent laws keep out competition for a long time.

This is something I struggle with, too. There's widespread belief that we live in an unregulated market today, when that couldn't be much further than the truth.

That's part of what got me into libertarianism and Austrian Economics. Everybody was blaming the "unregulated free market" for the 2008 crash, but a group of libertarian Austrian economists who predicted the crash in advance were able to explain how the housing bubble resulted from loose monetary policy. The more I learned, the more libertarian I became.
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fenderbender321 posted...

LordRazziel posted...

Yeah, but you asked when has company ever stepped on people using violence. I gave an example. If they can, they will. Like you said, it isn't black and white. The government can't solve all our problems, but sometimes you need their might. You also need protection from it.

I really wouldn't call that violence. It's a greyer area, bordering on fraud, really.

Here's how I see it. People have to voluntarily pick those things up, light them, and inhale them...over and over. It's a choice. And everyone knows that they don't know 100% for sure what they will do to you...whether somebody says they're good for you, or whether somebody says they're bad for you, all you know is what that person said, which may or may not be true. So it's a risk that the user is ultimately responsible for, and a risk that every user knows they are responsible for, regardless of what they say or how they act when things don't go the way they wanted them to.

I never mentioned cigarettes. I asked about companies hiring Pinkertons as terrorists.
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fenderbender321 posted...

But you said that was to stop unions from forming. And I responded to that.

your response was asinine handwaving, though

you didn't actually explain anything

fenderbender321 posted...

And sorry, I was going to respond to that. It's a tough question, because the way unions exist today would be different than how they would exist in a more free market. Essentially, there are specific laws that are upheld by our government that enable unions to have much more power than simply organizing with your co-workers to do some collective bargaining.

literally all of this applies equally to corporations. swap out the word "union" for the word "company" and this is equally accurate. so what you said literally added nothing of value to the conversation. it was just empty words
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fenderbender321 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Libertarianism seems "weird" because it runs counter to what you learn in school. That doesn't prove the ideology right or wrong. It sounds strange at first to hear that something the government has managed for your entire life could be handled better in the market for the same reason it would be weird for a person in 1950s Moscow to hear how the market provides food more efficiently than the government.

You have to be able to think dynamically. "If we eliminate this government program, will something in the free market replace it? Why or why not?" It's a hole thought process. It's easy to just think "well, most poor people feed themselves with food stamps today, so if we get rid of food stamps, all those people will starve to death". But that's not how it works. As somebody said earlier today, you can't predict the free market, which is actually more or less why I *am* a libertarian, rather than a reason why I shouldn't be.

"If the government doesn't control X, what will it look like?" The correct answer usually is, "I don't know what the best entrepreneurs would come up with here." The statist answer is always easy. "The government should manage it. Oh the government already is managing it and it's terrible (like public schooling)? Well then it's underfunded."

Leftists also don't seem to be able or willing to look for government interference where it exists. If you look at highly regulated markets such as healthcare and higher education where business owners can keep raising prices without losing customers, you need to look for the non-market entity that is keeping out competition. But leftists just cry exploitation and assume there is a natural glitch in the market.

I think a lot of the challenges that libertarians face in political discussions can be summed up as the following; Statist arguments are usually easy to digest bumper-stickers while libertarian counters are usually multiple paragraphs. "Healthcare is a human right!" There is a lot to unpack there.
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