Current Events > Libertarian builds $550 staircase for park after city said it would cost $150000

(+) Yeah! (+)

Its not that simple, now who is liable for any injury on the staircase. Its build on public ground and it looks reasonable for any person to use but lets say someone falls and breaks their neck while walking on it. Is it the city's fault for allowing it to be there? All these things matter.

People were falling and breaking their necks anyway, how is this an issue?
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Transcendentia posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

One of my projects is government work actually, and there is so much bullshit and red tape it hurts.

I had to resubmit my engineering drawings dozens of times

we better raise taxes and give them even more money! we need more social programs!!!

You support UBI. Is that going to be through the government or is it just a part of your libertarian wet dream?

One guy building a staircase in his free time and sticking it on a public trail doesn't prove the country can be funded by charity.
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Bruh that staircase looks like it's already falling apart lmao
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That staircase goes right into a guard rail. That doesn't look that safe lol
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SageHarpuia posted...

People were falling and breaking their necks anyway, how is this an issue?

cuz its a spontaneously man made trail, it's not a city approved trail. its just a shortcut, so people take it at their own risk.

hockeybub89 posted...

Transcendentia posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

One of my projects is government work actually, and there is so much bullshit and red tape it hurts.

I had to resubmit my engineering drawings dozens of times

we better raise taxes and give them even more money! we need more social programs!!!

You support UBI. Is that going to be through the government or is it just a part of your libertarian wet dream?

One guy building a staircase in his free time and sticking it on a public building doesn't prove the country can be funded by charity.

a staircase for that doesn't need to cost six figures. this is a very basic concept that anyone can understand.

people take it at their own risk.

Exactly. Slap a sign up and call it a day.
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Same people on this board who I bet make jokes about Chinese cheap craftsmanship and mocks them for cutting costs and corners at every turn will praise that POS non-structure stairs

ah yes, here comes cruel buffalo to lecture us on why a proper staircase costs $150,000

I mean, if people were volunteering to build things, yes it'd be cheaper
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eston posted...

All this because people are too lazy to go all the way around lol

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emblem boy posted...

I mean, if people were volunteering to build things, yes it'd be cheaper

that staircase would not cost $150,000 even if he was charging double what a normal rate is for custom stairs

<iCruelBuffalo posted...

Same people on this board who I bet make jokes about Chinese cheap craftsmanship and mocks them for cutting costs and corners at every turn will praise that POS non-structure stairs

Dude you could most definitely build stairs to code for a fucking fraction of their insane estimate.
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Transcendentia posted...

emblem boy posted...

I mean, if people were volunteering to build things, yes it'd be cheaper

that staircase would not cost $150,000 even if he was charging double what a normal rate is for custom stairs

Yes, that was probably a very bad estimate, but let's not also think a work project will simply cost less than a thousand dollars after accounting for labor
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CanuckCowboy posted...

<iCruelBuffalo posted...

Same people on this board who I bet make jokes about Chinese cheap craftsmanship and mocks them for cutting costs and corners at every turn will praise that POS non-structure stairs

Dude you could most definitely build stairs to code for a fucking fraction of their insane estimate.

That's still not "$400".

He didn't charge labor. You have to pay an engineer to build it to code. You have to use licensed contractors not homeless people you find in the Home Depot.

Whether that cost is 6 figs or not, I'm not a structural engineer, but I'm dating one. I know he charges way less for his designs but it's gonna be a few hundred for some kid so I'd expect $1k at least from a firm

I don't disagree but we're talking 20 to 30 thou on the generous end. But frankly a huge reason for the cost is just legal crap and make work shit. It has to be that way but practically speaking any decent carpenter could do that job based off their knowledge.

Cities and the like generally do get overcharged though. They farm it out to the best reasonable bid and all but I swear 98% of companies end up going over when it comes to city or government contracts
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Transcendentia posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Transcendentia posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

One of my projects is government work actually, and there is so much bullshit and red tape it hurts.

I had to resubmit my engineering drawings dozens of times

we better raise taxes and give them even more money! we need more social programs!!!

You support UBI. Is that going to be through the government or is it just a part of your libertarian wet dream?

One guy building a staircase in his free time and sticking it on a public building doesn't prove the country can be funded by charity.

a staircase for that doesn't need to cost six figures. this is a very basic concept that anyone can understand.

It also needs to cost more than $500 and doesn't prove the very concept of government is bad. I swear to god you're just Fenderbender with an ego.
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What's not to like about this story? I love it. I mean... I don't think that unlicensed citizens should just go building whatever they want in public spaces, but it looks like it worked out pretty well in this instance.

In California, cities aren't allowed to accept any bids that undercut prevailing wages or else the state pulls all discretionary funding, so you end up with ridiculous quotes like the one in the story. I think that there ought to be exceptions for certain types of work, for local / citizen volunteers who want to band together to improve their own community... but it'll never happen in my state because unions own the Assembly.
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fire_bolt posted...

As someone who has done this type of work before:

You forgot the biggest problem.

- Wood directly on dirt = termite AYCE all day every day for free. That staircase is fucked.
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clearaflagrantj posted...

BallerXRosetta- posted...

Without government, who would steal our money?

The corporations because there wouldn't be any regulations in place, so they'd take even more of our money.

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emblem boy posted...

Transcendentia posted...

emblem boy posted...

I mean, if people were volunteering to build things, yes it'd be cheaper

that staircase would not cost $150,000 even if he was charging double what a normal rate is for custom stairs

Yes, that was probably a very bad estimate, but let's not also think a work project will simply cost less than a thousand dollars after accounting for labor

Labor and materials would be more than a thousand, but nowhere near $150,000. Nowhere near $10,000 or even $5,000 either. This price was inflated because it's the government. That is literally the only reason. I've worked in the construction industry before, doing custom hand rails and stairs. There's no way in fuck that this job could ever, in any way, come close to costing even a quarter of their quote.

Why not just skip the stairs altogether and make a wheelchair ramp? That way everybody wins.
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BilalPowell posted...

Why not just skip the stairs altogether and make a wheelchair ramp? That way everybody wins.

because then the government can't appropriate $150,000 of taxpayer dollars for a job that shouldn't and couldn't cost more than a few thousand

BilalPowell posted...

Why not just skip the stairs altogether and make a wheelchair ramp? That way everybody wins.

the ramp would be so steep it'd be useless for wheelchairs and could probably be more dangerous than just the mound of dirt because it's easier to slip on it now.
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clearaflagrantj posted...

BallerXRosetta- posted...

Without government, who would steal our money?

The corporations because there wouldn't be any regulations in place, so they'd take even more of our money.

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Seriously though, guys, there are literal 3-story townhomes that are built for $150,000 USD. The idea that a half-flight of stairs would cost even 1/3rd of that money is absolutely fucking nonsense.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

fire_bolt posted...

As someone who has done this type of work before:

You forgot the biggest problem.

- Wood directly on dirt = termite AYCE all day every day for free. That staircase is fucked.

Covered that int the "Not treated" part. Properly treated wood can be used directly with dirt, but it's still better if its sunk in concrete.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

BilalPowell posted...

Why not just skip the stairs altogether and make a wheelchair ramp? That way everybody wins.

the ramp would be so steep it'd be useless for wheelchairs and could probably be more dangerous than just the mound of dirt because it's easier to slip on it now.

Nah, you could make one. It'd just need to be about triple the length of the stairs to graduate the incline
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pinky0926 posted...

He sounds well meaning and sounds like he did a decent job, but obviously you can't just have public spaces being altered by whichever well meaning citizen decides to do a DIY project.

I think it was needed to get those fucks to not waste money ranging from enough to buy a good car without a loan or small house on building a damn staircase.
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fire_bolt posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

BilalPowell posted...

Why not just skip the stairs altogether and make a wheelchair ramp? That way everybody wins.

the ramp would be so steep it'd be useless for wheelchairs and could probably be more dangerous than just the mound of dirt because it's easier to slip on it now.

Nah, you could make one. It'd just need to be about triple the length of the stairs to graduate the incline

Yeah, but this now involves heavy equipment to properly level/landscape the place, and while still not even remotely close to $150,000 is still going to be a bit more expensive than a $1000-ish staircase.
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I mean, if Mcdonald's started selling their burgers for $20 and some guy decided to set up shop outside and sell them for $5 of course Mcdonald's would discourage it and try to make it look like the meat wasn't FDA approved, doesn't mean it's going to kill anyone.
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SageHarpuia posted...

I mean, if Mcdonald's started selling their burgers for $20 and some guy decided to set up shop outside and sell them for $5 of course Mcdonald's would discourage it and try to make it look like the meat wasn't FDA approved, doesn't mean it's going to kill anyone.

Dumb post and dumb analogy

CruelBuffalo posted...

You have to pay an engineer to build it to code.

No you don't. You just have to get proper permits and a building inspector to sign off on the work.
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DirkDiggles posted...

CruelBuffalo posted...

You have to pay an engineer to build it to code.

No you don't. You just have to get proper permits and a building inspector to sign off on the work.

Well you do, but the "code" for a half flight of stairs in the middle of nowhere is not something you need to hire a high level architect for. You can probably just look up the codes online yourself and sketch it manually.
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CruelBuffalo posted...

SageHarpuia posted...

I mean, if Mcdonald's started selling their burgers for $20 and some guy decided to set up shop outside and sell them for $5 of course Mcdonald's would discourage it and try to make it look like the meat wasn't FDA approved, doesn't mean it's going to kill anyone.

Dumb post and dumb analogy

What I'm trying to say is, we're relying far too much on establishments and they know this.
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Polycosm posted...

What's not to like about this story?

Someone could get hurt
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Polycosm posted...

What's not to like about this story?

Someone could get hurt

I would agree with your point in the abstract; I wouldn't want unlicensed, unprofessional volunteers to go around building whatever they want.

However, two reasons why I don't think that your argument applies in this specific scenario:
1. The stairs, while imperfect, are still an improvement over the bare slope (safety-wise).
2. The city plans to modify the structure and bring it up to code, at far less cost than the original bids.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

$500 and $65,000 are both fucking stupid estimates. There's a reasonable middle ground for fuck sake.

You seriously think it would take more than $500 to build a staircase?
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faizan_faizan posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

$500 and $65,000 are both fucking stupid estimates. There's a reasonable middle ground for fuck sake.

You seriously think it would take more than $500 to build a staircase?

Yes, it in fact would cost more than that in just materials to build a staircase that is both weatherproof and completely safe. It'd probably also cost more than $500 in labor costs since it'd take a team of two workers a couple of days to finish the project start to finish.

GTFO of here with your shit talk. You clearly have no idea what it costs to work construction or what a project like this makes. You're like one of those guys who assumes that fixing a car should be cheap because he can change his own spark plugs.
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ctrl+f 'libertarian'

no results found

please explain, tc

The detail scrutinizers are missing the point of what this story is really aboot.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

You forgot the biggest problem.

- Wood directly on dirt = termite AYCE all day every day for free. That staircase is f***ed.

that's not as big a concern as you think

pressure treated wood + termidor treatment over the area will give at least a 7 year lifetime before termites can get into the wood

Mr Hangman posted...

"But termites will get that staircase in 20 years!!!"

So build another one then.

the issue is if the structural integrity fails under load at 15 years and someone dies


anyway i think we can all agree the contract estimates received by the city were bullshit, but @Transcendentia attempting to connect this to any other government activity with zero evidence is jumping to conclusions you decided before you ever read this article
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fire_bolt posted...

As someone who has done this type of work before:

- Supports in the center of the stairs but none at the edges
- Hand rail only on one side
- Wood does not look treated, meaning it is not going to hold up long in weather
- Stair foundation is not sunk into ground properly
- Bottom casting left up post-work

Like, it's nice that he did this but its shoddy work. Realistically, I could build it right for around $1000 and it'd last decades. This is a super simple job that takes about 2 days work plus time for the concrete to dry.

This is the issue here. The city was being incredibly unbelievably dumb with its $50k estimates. In times of incredible need, citizens will step up and take matters into their own hands. So I don't have any personal issue with the guy. The city can easy afford to tear this thing down and put up a concrete thing like you're suggesting for a small amount, way smaller than the $50k..
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Sativa_Rose posted...

The city was being incredibly unbelievably dumb with its $50k estimates.

to be clear the city typically collects estimates, it does not make them on their own
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clearaflagrantj posted...

BallerXRosetta- posted...

Without government, who would steal our money?

The corporations because there wouldn't be any regulations in place, so they'd take even more of our money.

Well a free market dictates what people are willing to pay so your statement in inaccurate to say the least.
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Santorin posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

BallerXRosetta- posted...

Without government, who would steal our money?

The corporations because there wouldn't be any regulations in place, so they'd take even more of our money.

Well a free market dictates what people are willing to pay so your statement in inaccurate to say the least.

There are no reasonable people who actually think there should be no government whatsoever. If I remember correctly, even the "Godfather of Capitalism" Adam Smith talks about the need for government to enforce property laws and contracts and stuff in The Wealth of Nations.
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Mr Hangman posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

$500 and $65,000 are both fucking stupid estimates. There's a reasonable middle ground for fuck sake.

$500 would not have been a stupid estimate because that's what it took.

"But you need people to design and review and re-review it!!!"

Apparently not.

"But termites will get that staircase in 20 years!!!"

So build another one then.

People are overthinking this. Spending more on this would be wasteful. If you want to spend money on your city there's a lot of better places it can go.

$500 in materials, not labor. And yes, they need qualified builders and not wood. I was thinking a few grand, same cost a home owner would pay a contractor.
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Mr Hangman posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

$500 and $65,000 are both fucking stupid estimates. There's a reasonable middle ground for fuck sake.

$500 would not have been a stupid estimate because that's what it took.

"But you need people to design and review and re-review it!!!"

Apparently not.

"But termites will get that staircase in 20 years!!!"

So build another one then.

People are overthinking this. Spending more on this would be wasteful. If you want to spend money on your city there's a lot of better places it can go.

I think potential injury and death surpasses termites
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