Current Events > Have you ever realized that your dreams don't really 'create' anything?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Your dreams recycle information that you have experienced in your personal life, as well as what you have seen and inferred from movies, TV, and video games.

Someone who has grown up in a forest their whole life with no contact with the modern world couldn't dream about situations involving airplanes, guns, school, etc. unless they have seen these things.

Which makes me wonder what a person who has lived their whole life in a forest would dream about. >_> Mostly trees and predators, maybe?
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I note though that most of the people in my dreams are not actual people I know, but strange hybrids of various traits from people I've met before.
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If you couldn't dream about anything you hadn't experienced, the fantasy and sci-fi genres wouldn't exist.
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I'm trying to figure out what a newborn dreams about. The only sense they really have is hearing
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Mal_Fet posted...

If you couldn't dream about anything you hadn't experienced, the fantasy and sci-fi genres wouldn't exist.

Not true at all. You can use thought to construct concepts in your mind during your waking life, but dreaming is all about filtering information you have already perceived.
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This is bullshit. I have really bizarre dreams sometimes that have nothing to do with my life. Sometimes I dream I'm a different person I've never met before.
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iosifsvoboda posted...

I'm trying to figure out what a newborn dreams about. The only sense they really have is hearing

Maybe similar to how blind people dream?
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My dreams have taken me to places that 100% for sure don't exist. A lot of them are kind of based off of real life though. Like the New York City in my dreams is very different than the New York City in real life.
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Howl posted...

This is bullshit. I have really bizarre dreams sometimes that have nothing to do with my life. Sometimes I dream I'm a different person I've never met before.

Again... this is just recycling information in your subconscious. You may dream you're another person, but you had to have had the concept of being another person in your awake life.
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Tanoomba posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

If you couldn't dream about anything you hadn't experienced, the fantasy and sci-fi genres wouldn't exist.

Not true at all. You can use thought to construct concepts in your mind during your waking life, but dreaming is all about filtering information you have already perceived.

How do you figure? I'm pretty sure I've dreamed of things I hadn't actually seen before.
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Tanoomba posted...

but you had to have had the concert of being another person in your awake life.

This sentence either doesn't make sense because of your usage of the word concert, or it's just totally impossible because I've never been another person in my waking life.
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Mal_Fet posted...

If you couldn't dream about anything you hadn't experienced, the fantasy and sci-fi genres wouldn't exist.

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things; you can't escape the influence of your entire frame of reference existing in the real world.

for example, imagine that you are trying to create a culture for a race of characters in your fantasy story without being influenced by existing cultures (which are the only foundation for things you can think of). it really just cannot be done because you have that existing knowledge.

IMO the only true "creativity" in the pure sense of the word that TC is talking about comes from outsider art, where you have some guy who is a hardcore hermit or mentally ill or whatever that is creating with absolutely no outside influence or reference
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I remember reading somewhere (and being reminded by Persona 5) that people often dreamed in black and white until color tvs came out

this is, if course, while b&w tvs were common place.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Tanoomba posted...

this is just recycling information in your subconscious

Post some sources instead of just repeating yourself.

Are you kidding me? How can you dream about a gun or the moon if you've never seen these things, or have no conceptual understanding what they are? Just use common sense.
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There was one time where I dreamed that I was Spider-man and then I became spider-carnage. I'd never seen spider-carnage and I didn't know that was an actual thing, but then the very next day I saw the episode of the 90s show where spider-carnage first shows up. I thought that was really weird
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Howl posted...

Tanoomba posted...

but you had to have had the concert of being another person in your awake life.

This sentence either doesn't make sense because of your usage of the word concert, or it's just totally impossible because I've never been another person in my waking life.

It was a typo from my autocorrect. The point is, in reality, you can grasp the notion as existing as another entity. This allows you to dream of this scenario, even if you never directly experienced it. But it is still within the constructs of your waking reality.

Romulox28 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

If you couldn't dream about anything you hadn't experienced, the fantasy and sci-fi genres wouldn't exist.

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things; you can't escape the influence of your entire frame of reference existing in the real world.

for example, imagine that you are trying to create a culture for a race of characters in your fantasy story without being influenced by existing cultures (which are the only foundation for things you can think of). it really just cannot be done because you have that existing knowledge.

IMO the only true "creativity" in the pure sense of the word that TC is talking about comes from outsider art, where you have some guy who is a hardcore hermit or mentally ill or whatever that is creating with absolutely no outside influence or reference

Yeah, pretty much.
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Romulox28 posted...

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things

I guarantee you that Star Trek's warp drive is based on nothing that exists now or ever could be.
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Mal_Fet posted...

Romulox28 posted...

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things

I guarantee you that Star Trek's warp drive is based on nothing that exists now or ever could be.

No, but it is a concept that can be constructed in reality through inference of existing motions. "Warp drive" probably wasn't conceived by many people during the Stone Age. But during the era of rapidly expanding technology, these ideas could be grasped more readily.
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Tanoomba posted...

It was a typo from my autocorrect. The point is, in reality, you can grasp the notion as existing as another entity. This allows you to dream of this scenario, even if you never directly experienced it. But it is still within the constructs of your waking reality.

I can "grasp the notion of anything" so literally what you are saying means absolutely nothing. Are you expecting people to be able to dream about something that is beyond their own comprehension? The only concept like that is something like eternity really. There's not anything else that's beyond the capacity of imagination to begin with.
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Tanoomba posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Romulox28 posted...

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things

I guarantee you that Star Trek's warp drive is based on nothing that exists now or ever could be.

No, but it is a concept that can be constructed in reality through inference of existing motions. "Warp drive" probably wasn't conceived by many people during the Stone Age. But during the era of rapidly expanding technology, these ideas could be grasped more readily.

What about Leonardo Da Vinci creating the plans for flying machines and cars?
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Tanoomba posted...

No, but it is a concept that can be constructed in reality through inference of existing motions. "Warp drive" probably wasn't conceived by many people during the Stone Age. But during the era of rapidly expanding technology, these ideas could be grasped more readily.

People in the stone age conceived of other dimensions that you will ascend to upon death to join your ancestors. That's quite a bit more fanciful than warp drive.
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YookaLaylee posted...

Tanoomba posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Romulox28 posted...

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things

I guarantee you that Star Trek's warp drive is based on nothing that exists now or ever could be.

No, but it is a concept that can be constructed in reality through inference of existing motions. "Warp drive" probably wasn't conceived by many people during the Stone Age. But during the era of rapidly expanding technology, these ideas could be grasped more readily.

What about Leonardo Da Vinci creating the plans for flying machines and cars?

Noticed I said not by "many people" in my reference point. Da Vinci, like many throughout history, was a highly intellectual and creative man during his waking life. He also was surrounded by technologies of his era. That's not to say every citizen back then could realistically envision these things like we can now. Everyone understands these concepts now, of course.
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Tanoomba posted...

YookaLaylee posted...

Tanoomba posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Romulox28 posted...

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things

I guarantee you that Star Trek's warp drive is based on nothing that exists now or ever could be.

No, but it is a concept that can be constructed in reality through inference of existing motions. "Warp drive" probably wasn't conceived by many people during the Stone Age. But during the era of rapidly expanding technology, these ideas could be grasped more readily.

What about Leonardo Da Vinci creating the plans for flying machines and cars?

Noticed I said not by "many people" in my reference point. Da Vinci, like many throughout history, was a highly intellectual and creative man during his waking life. He also was surrounded by technologies of his era. That's not to say every citizen back then could realistically envision these things like we can now. Everyone understands these concepts now, of course.

Dude nothing you are saying makes any amount of logical sense. Davinci dreaming up stuff he had no possible way have a concept of doesn't count because reasons...
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Tanoomba posted...

Noticed I said not by "many people" in my reference point. Da Vinci, like many throughout history, was a highly intellectual and creative man during his waking life. He also was surrounded by technologies of his era. That's not to say every citizen back then could realistically envision these things like we can now. Everyone understands these concepts now, of course.

I guess even Da Vinci's ideas were based on reality to an extent though. E.g. seeing birds flying and the technology of the time and thinking, "How could I use technology to enable humans to fly?"

And of course, I bet his ideas were visually similar to other technologies of the time and made use of existing concepts.

My dreams grow weed.
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Who decided this?

I don't remember having a psych session with this person so they can figure out what parts of my subconscious are manifested in my dreams.
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Howl posted...

This is bullshit. I have really bizarre dreams sometimes that have nothing to do with my life. Sometimes I dream I'm a different person I've never met before.

Howl posted...

Dude nothing you are saying makes any amount of logical sense. Davinci dreaming up stuff he had no possible way have a concept of doesn't count because reasons...

I don't know how much simpler I can dumb things down for you. Da Vinci didn't "dream up this stuff", he conceptualized them in his waking life through inference of his own experience with reality. I never said we can't "create" things through thought.

luigi13579 posted...

Tanoomba posted...

Noticed I said not by "many people" in my reference point. Da Vinci, like many throughout history, was a highly intellectual and creative man during his waking life. He also was surrounded by technologies of his era. That's not to say every citizen back then could realistically envision these things like we can now. Everyone understands these concepts now, of course.

I guess even Da Vinci's ideas were based on reality to an extent though. E.g. seeing birds flying and the technology of the time and thinking, "How could I use technology to enable humans to fly?"

And of course, I bet his ideas were visually similar to other technologies of the time and made use of existing concepts.

Exactly. If Da Vinci was blind and locked in a cage his whole life, he's not coming up with these things.
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I think TC is saying that when we fall asleep, our dreams create worlds and events based on things we have encountered, experienced, or have knowledge of during our waking lives. They're amalgamations, but nothing we haven't ever been aware of. When we're awake, we can actively imagine whatever we want and after doing so, our dreams can piggyback off of our created concepts.
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I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. It would be like ancient Romans dreaming about smart phones. It just couldn't happen.
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Mal_Fet posted...

Romulox28 posted...

nah, fantasy and sci fi are all based on existing things

I guarantee you that Star Trek's warp drive is based on nothing that exists now or ever could be.

but it was

it was based entirely on concepts that exist in the real world. sure it's not like a warp drive existed at the time, but the concepts of how this item works and exist are based very strongly in reality. the creators knew of the existence of space travel, they knew of einstein's theory of relativity, and the warp drive just utilizes existing concepts to create something new in the universe.

it is entirely impossible to understand a concept from outside of our existing body of knowledge. even if you create a new world or idea, it's still being influenced by your knowledge of art, culture, language, mathematics, science, etc.
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shnangyboos posted...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. It would be like ancient Romans dreaming about smart phones. It just couldn't happen.

I'm saying this is bullshit and just not true. It's like people who claim to know the meanings of certain types of dreams. There's no possible way that anyone could know this were true.
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Howl posted...

shnangyboos posted...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. It would be like ancient Romans dreaming about smart phones. It just couldn't happen.

I'm saying this is bullshit and just not true. It's like people who claim to know the meanings of certain types of dreams. There's no possible way that anyone could know this were true.

Romulox28 posted...

it is entirely impossible to understand a concept from outside of our existing body of knowledge. even if you create a new world or idea, it's still being influenced by your knowledge of art, culture, language, mathematics, science, etc.

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Why would you not post sources? Otherwise, there is nothing to prove your point.
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Romulox28 posted...

it was based entirely on concepts that exist in the real world. sure it's not like a warp drive existed at the time, but the concepts of how this item works and exist are based very strongly in reality.

The concept of warp drive is not based on any sort of reality that we inhabit.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Tanoomba posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Tanoomba posted...

this is just recycling information in your subconscious

Post some sources instead of just repeating yourself.

Are you kidding me? How can you dream about a gun or the moon if you've never seen these things, or have no conceptual understanding what they are? Just use common sense.

No I'm not kidding you. If you are going to make such bold claims about reality, consciousness, and dreaming, post some sources to back it up.

Your assertions really don't mean much and this is not in the realm of common sense.

Go ahead and dream about a concept that you don't have an intellectual grasp on. You can't. Real life is your source. And when I say "dream" I mean literal dreaming. Not day dreaming, which is what I think some people here are getting hung up on.

vbty3 posted...

Why would you not post sources? Otherwise, there is nothing to prove your point.

You can grasp these things without me compiling research piled up from people who have come to the same conclusion as I have.

You have a memory. Memories are stored information. When you no longer have any memory, you no longer have any information. It's common sense.
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This just comes down to TC claiming without sources that new ideas can only be conceptualized with a waking mind and not a sleeping mind, which is bullshit.

Just gonna remind TC that admitting you're wrong is a virtue not a weakness.

What do blind people dream about
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MJ_Max posted...

This just comes down to TC claiming without sources that new ideas can only be conceptualized with a waking mind and not a sleeping mind, which is bullshit.

Just gonna remind TC that admitting you're wrong is a virtue not a weakness.

"New ideas" in dreams are inferred from your experience in waking life. How is this hard to understand? Newton didn't just go to bed and suddenly wake up with the knowledge of the concept of gravity.
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Tanoomba posted...

Howl posted...

shnangyboos posted...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. It would be like ancient Romans dreaming about smart phones. It just couldn't happen.

I'm saying this is bullshit and just not true. It's like people who claim to know the meanings of certain types of dreams. There's no possible way that anyone could know this were true.

Romulox28 posted...

it is entirely impossible to understand a concept from outside of our existing body of knowledge. even if you create a new world or idea, it's still being influenced by your knowledge of art, culture, language, mathematics, science, etc.

These three posts quoted together do not explain away what I said in my second post at all. You are literally just making a claim you have no proof at all for, and have no way at all to be able to prove in any way.

Basically just spouting bullshit.
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TC, I literally helped explain your point. I never said I agree with it, but it makes sense. However, you can't throw information at people and expect them to believe it without valid sources and justification.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Your statements mean nothing without sources to back them up. I'm sorry that you are having trouble with this concept. It must be new to you.

This is as stupid as me asking you to provide sources that water is necessary for life. Do I need to chew your food too, or are you just totally incapable of anything on your own? This isn't a novel new theory or concept I'm coming up with. I'm not inventing gravity or evolution. This stuff can be realized by your own personal experience, if you take a moment to reflect.
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TC:


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Tanoomba posted...

This is as stupid as me asking you to provide sources that water is necessary for life.

No it isn't. There is an actual way to prove scientifically that water is necessary for life. The claim you are making is not falsifiable, and is therefore not scientific. It's equivalent to saying God created the universe.
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If I don't know other planets exist, and I think my planet is the only one, how could I possibly dream about going to another planet? The idea of another planet doesn't exist for me.
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