Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku/Yu/Bass. EXE/Wrex vs. Dizzy/Flynn/ Selvaria/Jaesa

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://guilty-gear.wikia.com/wiki/Dizzy#Powers_.26_Abilities

Second paragraph of this section. And destroying a fleet of warships on a whim is like, Laharl-calibre strength, albeit without the finesse to avoid killing inhabitants.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Seriously, though. Wang had literally no right to attack us on this.

dude.
i specifically called you (and FFD) out on not knowing a character.
it was asked of a few of you if you knew anything about her. a simple question that evidently does not have much of an answer. nobody ever seemed to really mention her much. instead of simply admitting that yeah, you don't really know much about her, you got upset for being called out on it. why? "I don't need to argue for Luis, that's not my job!" is the answer you've got for "hey, so what do you know about her?"

yeah, that's the wrong attitude to take. you ain't arguing who'd win, you're arguing and defending that it's okay to not know and be ignorant before voting.


don't think that you're the only ones singled out here either, i pretty blatantly shit on luis here too for introducing someone he (seemingly?) knew so little of. if he knew more and just isn't presenting info on her for some reason, well uh... okay. that's dumb as a leader but understandable as to why she's there.

but this is so blatantly not what you do. you ain't the guy who randomly shows up in a topic and goes "well, i think __ is stronger so i'll vote for them." you dig into the characters too and try to get to know them. yeah, that's valid because the rules have been dumbed down to that point but that's also a shitty vote. you usually don't do those but you did here. you should understand that's a compliment to you, not an insult.
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i spent all my fucks on the royal rumble match

I'm confident in my vote here.
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Is the alternate universe canon? There's a butt load more lore than I'm willing to investigate here sorry.
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How about Selvaria? Her lasers haven't stopped being ridiculous.

I don't think she does much to Bass, but she tanks/parries some crazy stuff, and I see her capable of blowing up Bass's support pretty easily.
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I asked a question about Dizzy and looked into her more because she's being presented as a big deal.

You're throwing a bitch fit because I didn't ask about a character who isn't being presented as a big deal, and from what I knew of her didn't seem like she'd change my vote.

You're the one just assuming I slapped down a shitty vote without any thought. No. Fuck off.
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Sheen, don't let yourself be Wang'd. Srsly.
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trdl23 posted...

Sheen, don't let yourself be Wang'd. Srsly.

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Oh, so most people do just kinda ignore him when he goes full Wang? Fair enough. I didn't want to seem like I was being a dick out of retaliation.

Bass

Confident enough to reinstate my vote.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Congratulations, Wang, you win. I'll just stop voting so I don't have to make sure I pass the Wang Test every time

that ain't a win, no.
the win would be you knowing that yeah, simply voting without knowing the character is a pretty shitty thing to do. might as well throw in that it's knowing you shouldn't rely on the leaders for arguments but i think you know that one already. some leaders have sucked at arguing (Boko), some have been extremely blatant in their bias (Corrik), some are good (DC, FFD, Drak, Lopen, etc), and some kind of do all three (Kan). you know that if there's a chance to get more info, it's best to take it and then apply it to the match. that's typically what you do.

MenuWars posted...

Is the alternate universe canon? There's a butt load more lore than I'm willing to investigate here sorry.

yes, it's canon. Dizzy in this match is older, more experienced, and better than her alt universe version too. the main thing that holds her back still is her personality, though she's quite willing to fight nowadays. just doesn't enjoy it much, which is the biggest hold up to her dominating the match. that said, you're talking about durability here so even if she doesn't want to fight, if she's tanky enough to take an actual nuke and shrug it off, well... yeah, you start asking about the output of the other side, which is basically Wrex/Bass.
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Well, I might not be back here before this is over, so Dizzy, but it's way closer than I expected it to be.
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StealThisSheen posted...

You're throwing a bitch fit because I didn't ask about a character who isn't being presented as a big deal, and from what I knew of her didn't seem like she'd change my vote.

then i'll ask you again for a fourth time.
what did you know about her?

because that's the question that's been getting you mad here, that someone would ask you that, as you have seemingly not had an actual answer.
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I don't know why I'm still surprised when b8 cares so much about this type of stuff after being here for 4 years, yet I still am.

Video game characters and different universes power levels are never going to be indisputable facts, anyone that's watched some star wars films can have a pretty good idea about how a Jedi's going to hold up in combat, the games can try to make them as tanky they're clearly not very tanky. Nor do they possess mind blowing speed.

There's nothing for anyone to get so bent out of shape over here. Calm ya tits wang.
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menu - my question to him was what does he know about a character in a match he threw down a vote. his response was literally that it's not his job to argue for luis. from there it's meta analysis over the game, the roles we play, and why it's a shitty vote, mostly.

i'm pretty calm here. and if you seriously think i'm arguing anything Star Wars at a high level you're way off base. i've got some of the lowest respect for that universe. it just ain't right to vote on a character where nothing is known about that character, nobody's asked about them, and nobody can say anything about their capabilities in a fight.
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I am voting for Bass.exe because he's scary in the games, and quickly disregarded the entire enemy team before arguments were submitted, save Dizzy who I briefly considered after a few posts before ignoring once more.
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Alright all things considered I'm still gonna go with Bass. I can't really find any speed feats for Dizzy and she absolutely needs them here cus Bass's Lasers are absolutely going to hurt her with buff. Especially if Yu manages to get off a debuff on her.

Flynn's dying to the gank, no question. Selvaria's going to do her thing and try to engage the back line with back up from a likely quickly shredded Jaesa meaning Urdnot's fully engaged in battle and Rikku's swiftly dead.

Leaving a 1 v 1 between Dizzy which due to Bass's buffs, the speed being a very key factor I see him winning like 6 maybe 7/10?

Dizzy respects gone waaaaay up though. Those are some ridiculously impressively feats.
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Key things to note, if the arena was more open Dizzy gets to unleash more of her power and that probably swings it. 2. If it's a small arena Rikku doesn't get her buffs off at the beginning and that swings it too.
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Kind of sad actually as this seems to be Flynns home turf from the research I did.
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it technically is, that's pretty much the starting area of all samurai.
flynn didn't stay in it for very long though. but he does know the map layout and has it in the gauntlet.
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@Wanglicious

Re: Jaesa, I had to remake her writeup because TOR systems changed so much between M4 and draftmerx that there was no longer any place where info on them could be found, so I did the research on her (and dozed off earlier because oof hell day, 'oops'). Basically Jaesa's story is kinda reminiscent to Bastila Shan's in KotOR 1, where she's wanted due to a special ability she has - Bastila isn't like a god tier Jedi, but Battle Meditation is a gamebreaking ability, and so is being able to act as a hyper precise truth finder. I spent a whiiiiiiiile going through Jaesa's storyline on Youtube just to make sure, and best I can tell, she's what I'd call an 8/10 4/week after the remade build in a world where Alucard and Ky Kiske are 10/10s that define the upkeep tier and Flynn is dumb as a 4 and should not exist (p decent 5/week right there). She has a pretty wide toolkit and can execute it reasonably competently, though her primary lean is offensive abilities. If you want a ceiling for her, Anakin in Ep 2 before EU nonsense is a good benchmark IIRC - solid feats, does very well against lesser threats (and ginsus mooks), but somebody who's a true Star Wars heavyweight would mash her.
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honestly i think i'm just more frustrated that everything in this post wasn't found loooong before and part of her established character by now. like specific skillsets i can understand having issue on but c'mon man, the idea of being a once in a thousand year, unprecedented jedi with tracking abilities way beyond anything else is important. seriously, in her story she manages to track down jedi spies like nothing despite them being scattered around the universe, she finds any sith who's somewhat light leaning, and she tracks down the guy who killed them with nothing but her force tracking. she's a goddamn people-sensor.

for this match that poses a problem since bass is a robot. but logically, she probably knows how many humans are in the match since sensing people is literally what she does. if you were to kill any of her allies, she'd be able to pinpoint your location too. it's pretty wild as far as support functions go.

her story seemed to end with her using the people-reading force powers in combat in order to defeat a sith lord handpicked by the council too. there's a precog technique she's got that's built for melee countering, especially on anyone with emotions. saying she's a "hyper precise truth finder" greatly undersells the evolution of her power.


...but again, bass is a robot so if he ganks her, she's probably fucked. even if he doesn't, bass ain't the ideal opponent for her, i'd sooner see his life aura work well against light sabers and if she can't read him, whoops.

anyway here, you can skim through it when you got time. but gave the cliff notes in the post.

Wanglicious posted...

this will probably be the best thing in the short term that isn't Kan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu65lF2gsvE

5:37 you've got this when she's still a padawan:
"Master Yonlach: Jaesa is special, her power unprecedented. If untouched by the likes of you, she has the potential to lead the Jedi to greatness.


a couple powers shown there is that she's got some pretty ridiculous tracking capaibilities. light-side leaning sith, even sith lords, across the galaxy got tracked by her and she murdered them alone. we know there's multiple jedi that she killed and then eventually as the story progresses she can detect the guy who killed a sith. so by using the force she can track down whoever murdered all of them.

eventually she finds him, a Sith Lord named Cendence, and she then proceeds to solo him in combat. this guy was hand picked by the Dark Council to kill any Sith that would potentially betray them, so he shouldn't be a weak, throwaway guy.

"He was ferocious. Honestly, there was a poitn where I thought I was done for. But my power is beginning to help me innately. I intuited a feint, and, ignoring it, was able to counter his death blow and seize an opening--a fatal thrust through the neck."

the implication here is that her ability to sense people's emotions has gone beyond just emotions and just detecting people for tracking, it's also usable in combat. running the same logic in the power, it's basically modified precog in knowing whether or not they intend to act and perhaps where they're going to be since it was a counter strike to the neck.



so all in all, that's quite a bit better than token sith apprentice considering she beat a chosen by dark council sith lord.

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for this match that poses a problem since bass is a robot. but logically, she probably knows how many humans are in the match since sensing people is literally what she does.

Do ya one better, she knows how many people she's facing due to the Conventions in the first post:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427

(That rule was implemented specifically to give dudes like Spy from TF2 a better fighting in terrains that work for them, but applies to the general case too.)
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-No mercenary can ever start in a location where they would die instantly or end up ringed out of the terrain before abilities. If there's no room within a terrain to fit them, the terrain will stretch out until there's at least one yard of available, moving, safe space.


I wish someone had quoted this in that fucking Diablo and Vanille versus Damus match. Edited cus I dumb
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honestly i think i'm just more frustrated that everything in this post wasn't found loooong before and part of her established character by now.

To clarify, I knew about Jaesa wayyyy before I began admining this game. I was very thorough in making profiles for every merc that came out in M4 more or less, and Jaesa was worth researching because a 4/week lightsaber is ALWAYS worth researching. It was only the gameplay mechanics that I had to go look up upon remaking her (plus a refresher course to see if there was any broken bullshit that might slip past me - I don't think it did). I do agree Jaesa is very 'who' and this hasn't been sold well so far, tho.
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I wish someone had quoted this in that fucking Diablo versus Vanille match.

It doesn't change anything because Diablo and Vanille don't spawn in a pit of phazon in Impact Crater. The starting location is determined, it's really big, and there isn't phazon there. That clause doesn't cover dying to any terrain hazards after the match has started, it only prevents death by telefrag or the like.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

I wish someone had quoted this in that fucking Diablo versus Vanille match.

It doesn't change anything because Diablo and Vanille don't spawn in a pit of phazon in Impact Crater. The starting location is determined, it's really big, and there isn't phazon there. That clause doesn't cover dying to any terrain hazards after the match has started, it only prevent death by telefrag or the like.

Exactly but people were arguing she just turned up and died.
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oh huh.

-Mercenaries know their enemies' names and a rough description of appearance (e. g.: "Your enemy is Dr. Wily. He's an old man with a robot"). Mercenaries do not have any intrinsic ways of telling enemies apart from neutral NPCs or distinguishing between multiple enemy teams.

didn't know about that one.
then to loop this all around...

- everyone knows the enemies' name and rough description
- Jaesa's unique power lets her sense people's emotion, how good or evil they are (light/dark side), where they're located, and it has some battle purpose that allows her to sense actions and possibly movement
- Flynn should have this terrain mapped out in his gauntlet as it's one of his home turfs

so... she should know that there's a robot too. lilith's phasewalk ability kicks in there i think.

if you want any timestamps on any of the stuff there just ask btw. it's pretty directly lifted or quoted.
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Anyway interested in your thoughts on the fight but other than that I'm done. Unless Dizzy has some hidden speed feats I couldn't find, she seems like the atypical Bruiser type, very powerful, very durable, not massively mobile, especially during her more powerful abilities.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

and Jaesa was worth researching because a 4/week lightsaber is ALWAYS worth researching

right. the force is an all encompassing ass pull power so anytime there's a jedi or sith there's gong to be something there. like just look at the way her power evolved - it's stupid. it's X-Men levels of "this scale jumped really fast."

her combat worth isn't where she excels i think, though it's obviously not low if she's beating hand picked sith lords. from there you get into the new mechanics, fine, whatever. i stand by star wars characters being best when it's not about how they fight but about what they can do. in her case that's... a lot for support value. she's extremely difficult to ambush and she's set up to be perfect for ambushing.
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Lopen posted...

as KJH said his Life Aura should suppress his weakness till it's brought down-- so this is overall a mistake to attempt, his app may be the doom of him here

hmm, I forgot about this.

Remind me how the Life Aura thing works. Bass has to be hit with a sufficiently strong strike in order to break it, right? But once it's gone, it's gone for the rest of the fight?
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Drakeryn posted...

Lopen posted...

as KJH said his Life Aura should suppress his weakness till it's brought down-- so this is overall a mistake to attempt, his app may be the doom of him here

hmm, I forgot about this.

Remind me how the Life Aura thing works. Bass has to be hit with a sufficiently strong strike in order to break it, right? But once it's gone, it's gone for the rest of the fight?

Yes.
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MenuWars posted...

Anyway interested in your thoughts on the fight but other than that I'm done. Unless Dizzy has some hidden speed feats I couldn't find, she seems like the atypical Bruiser type, very powerful, very durable, not massively mobile, especially during her more powerful abilities.

She does have good speed, yes. She's the child and successor Justice, who could fly to space and quickly traverse the globe, and she has no issues keeping up with any of the faster GG characters (like Johnny, who moves so fast it looks like he's teleporting and can cover a football field sized area in simultaneous slashes). There's no area she's weak in. If you want someone from GG who's a bruiser you have to look at Potemkin.
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Wanglicious posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

and Jaesa was worth researching because a 4/week lightsaber is ALWAYS worth researching

right. the force is an all encompassing ass pull power so anytime there's a jedi or sith there's gong to be something there. like just look at the way her power evolved - it's stupid. it's X-Men levels of "this scale jumped really fast."

her combat worth isn't where she excels i think, though it's obviously not low if she's beating hand picked sith lords. from there you get into the new mechanics, fine, whatever. i stand by star wars characters being best when it's not about how they fight but about what they can do. in her case that's... a lot for support value. she's extremely difficult to ambush and she's set up to be perfect for ambushing.

Sidenote Wang, where would you set Kyle Katarn from the Jedi Knight series and The Apprentice from Force Unleashed at, assuming the former got a full set of weapons to go with the 'saber and appeared as in Jedi Academy? My gut feeling is 'strong 6/week' and 7/week respectively, but I'm curious on your thoughts.
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speed feats in guilty gear...
honestly not sure there's many of them. most of the stuff you'll find regarding this will relate to IK that make no sense at all. Xrd probably has the best level for it in the scene where Sol rides a rocket.

lemme see if i can find that. i'd assume that this is the level that is generally worked on as a top speed for the more humanoid-level stuff in gears.
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lemme see if i can find that. i'd assume that this is the level that is generally worked on as a top speed for the more humanoid-level stuff in gears.

Would argue that the Johnny feat I just mentioned is super impressive speedwise too (he manages to cover a massive area in slashes so jackass Bedman can't telespam his way to a win against him and Leo), but yeah, I think that's the main one.
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i'm really not a big star wars guy, my respect is notoriously low on it, and i haven't played those games. hell, revan isn't someone i hold in that much value overall. so my value system mostly focuses on the "what else can they do?" sort of questions and i do like that this girl has a neat bag of tricks. lopen did say something earlier that rings true still - sith lord and jedi masters in the MMO are for some reason fucking jobbers.
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Is Dizzy faster or slower than this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGetImTgyFA
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So speed certainly isn't there strong suit then outside of a few rare occurrences where someone goes hyper mode.

...and I have to say I agree with Wang, the Best Jedi's only really hit the 7 a week mark because of precog + telepathy utility imo. Cus any of the other big boys and girls up there just one shot them because they're not fast nor durable enough to do anything about it in an enclosed arena so precog only gets you so far.
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still looking for the video but for now...
https://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/730873-guilty-gear-xrd-sign-/faqs/72658

November 2, 2187
Zepp -- Outer District

ZEPP SOLDIER 2: All 420 targeting beacons have been placed. ID Code and link bridge verification, complete. Setting temporary target location to A-1.

ZEPP SOLDIER 3: Bunker level... Magic shielding density, cleared.

ZEPP SOLDIER 1: Ground-to-ground ICBM "Vagilanda" armed and ready to fire!

GABRIEL: Sol, can you hear me?

SOL: Yeah!

GABRIEL: The Vagilanda flies horizontally--a perfect marriage of magic and our technology. Its cruising speed is around 5.2km/s. We're approximately 9,200km from our target, so we estimate around 22 minutes to impact. It starts relatively slowly, which should give you enough time to, ah, board, but this isn't exactly something any human could actually do. We've removed the payload, but that won't make the impact of the missile any less deadly for you.

SOL: Done with the lecture? Let's get this show on the road.

GABRIEL: Hrmph. Just don't forget what I've told you. Your superhuman nature is the key to all of this. We're counting on you.

SOL: ...

GABRIEL: Begin approach! Vagilanda... FIRE!

[The moment he gives the signal, Sol runs as fast as possible and jumps off Zepp, which he lands onto Vagilanda and punches it while holding onto the rocket.]



this sounds more impressive in text than the video was: he's running as fast as he can and jumps off right before it's fired out the ship. he does adjust himself and punch into it before riding it and it takes at full speed of 5.2km/s. that'd translate to him cruising on something going at... mach 17.6. math:

5.2km/s
312km/m
18720km/h
11632.069 mph

so that speed is bearable for Sol still in his more human form. when he hopped on it wasn't anywhere close to that but it should still have been going pretty fast all in all.


woodman posted...

Is Dizzy faster or slower than this guy?

faster.
Ky's still human, though a very good one.
Dizzy is closer to Sol's tier of speed, though not nearly as experienced in combat.
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if you don't mind the commentary:
https://youtu.be/1UC37mVQ4JE?t=10m10s


first vid i could find of it, timed for after the conversation is had so you can see the animation.
a lot less impressive than the text.
but he does still punch that thing as it's flying midair.
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Not bad, but it wasn't like blinking speed or anything had to build up to it. Still significantly better than your average joe though and it's been acknowledged the feats aren't common place and they seem significantly slower in combat (let's face it that rocket was fucking massive and was travelling at a telegraphed trajectory)

So yeah that doesn't do a lot for me. Seems like an exception to the rule rather than anything commonplace.
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there's an obvious slowmo effect going on when it's out the ship, though yes. the most impressive thing about it is that, even if it's accelerating as it comes out, he goes through the full punch wind up with it likely already in hypersonic speeds. should be good enough to see Sol/Justice/Dizzy as being able to react to things faster than bullets anyway. which, if bass isn't, well... he's not fast enough, then.
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Regular bass has after image creating speeds from the hype I've seen, so a double hasted would be absurd. Plus his Persona and the Phasewalk stuff.

If there were some battle feats of them fighting at that kind of pace but they seem way slower in combat outside of the single exception that Kanz gave which doesn't include Dizzy. So if it's not really demonstrable in a meaningful way I can't buy it.

Same as that bullshit book everyone quotes that gives Master Chief like instantaneous reaction times and mach speed running and shit. It's a massively far cry from how he's represented everywhere else and that matters to me.
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I absolutely buy that she's a top flight in terms of power and durability though.
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mm... that's fair i guess. GG is definitely lacking in speed feats, i'm pretty sure that's the only calculated speed in the series. johnny slashing bedman with leo can also be seen in that script:

BEDMAN: WORTHLESS VULTURE! D:<

[Leo attacks Bedman but he manages to teleport behind Johnny only for Johnny to block it. Bedman teleports a few miles from them.]

JOHNNY: I guess it won't be that easy.

LEO: Are you the leader of the Jellyfish Pirates?!

JOHNNY: Hey, uh...how 'bout we save that for later, hm?

LEO: No! *Reconsider after a short silence* ...Well...fine, we have a job for your...special skills.

JOHNNY: Lay it on me.

BEDMAN: Aaaah, I seem you're trying to move the beacon directly on top of the target. Oh?

[Bedman sees Leo dashing right at him.]

BEDMAN: You don't know what I can do, do you? I'm feeling rather tired.

[Unfortunately, he didn't anticipate Johnny's attacks as Johnny slices multiple areas, creating multiple projectile slashes.]

LEO: I've figured you out, kid. The further you're going to teleport, the longer the wind-up is! So... Why don't you try your little trick again? My swords are getting thirsty...

[With no choice, he has to block Johnny's sword attacks.]

BEDMAN: Damnit--!

which is the idea that johnny slices air at massively large distances. he's a sword user who slices so fast, he has a gunner's range.
don't have the vid of that though. not really a case for Dizzy either but hey, at least you'll know where that came from.
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Johnny's really the only one with consistent speed feats. His instant kill has him fling a playing card like a throwing star, pretty much, and then actually out-race it to slice both the opponent and the card in half, for instance.

EDIT: Actually, I forgot about Chipp
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i'd just be very, very cautious about using IKs for anything if they're from the older games. Xrd is honestly a bit more tricky. some of them are still goofy but others... are not the strongest the character's been.

the biggest example is Venom i think. he goes from a guy who's completely unimpressive to, well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwsyqLltemg


the dude pulls a giant, celestial pool stick.
also Chipp is generally pretty good for speed stuff, though Johnny's strikes are a whole other level. Sol and Ky aren't given as much respect there in Xrd but Ky > Johnny is pretty well affirmed, though i'd still think Johnny strikes faster with Mist Finer. Sol > Ky at everything is also pretty consistent. Dizzy ranges from being above Sol (when she's gone nuts) to being between the two (normal).

edit:
skip to 3:31 for the fun.
Xrd is goofy.
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Dizzy has never been above Sol. He's beaten her in both the darkest timeline and the good timeline, and even in the former case he didn't have to fully cut loose. Sol's competition isn't Dizzy, it's Slayer.
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when did they establish that he beat dizzy in the alt timeline? thought that was generally considered her win but I-No time looped to fix that.

speaking of Slayer though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nirwN3R8C5k
1:20:20 - Slayer vs. Bedman. mountains and hills getting disintegrated, Slayer's punch being a distant hit that sends him flying backwards a huge distance, and much more. worth seeing if you want to understand the power levels of those higher in the GG universe but Slayer is fast.
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found the Johnny fight by the way.
https://youtu.be/tWkrkmiJFKQ?t=3m23s

all his mist finer cuts in full.
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