Current Events > Will we ever get another Star Trek movie as good as First Contact?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Probably not.

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I know I'm in the minority on this one, but...


Generations > First Contact
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Blegh I hated Generations. It was so... Shatner. And without Kirk, nobody can do nuthin

First Contact was terrific though. Picard reenacts Moby Dick, and all he does to get out of it is to simply notice that he's reenacting Moby Dick. As silly as it sounds, it brings to light the importance of literature in human decision making. Meanwhile, Riker and co. looking absolutely delighted to see their hero do his thing despite his undocumented flaws was a constant joy for me to watch as well.

It's just a damn good movie.

I just don't get why they chose to movies to give Picard weak moments. It's fine once or twice, but why every single movie though, when he's the indomitable captain in his series?
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legendarylemur posted...

but why every single movie though, when he's the indomitable captain in his series?

That's probably why, actually. I think it made more sense in Generations and First Contact. Not so much in Nemesis.
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SpiralDrift posted...

legendarylemur posted...

but why every single movie though, when he's the indomitable captain in his series?

That's probably why, actually. I think it made more sense in Generations and First Contact. Not so much in Nemesis.

Generations was a bit forced imo, though I couldn't believe they killed off his brother so suddenly. First Contact was where he was the most convincing, and that made his return to form all the more reasonable.

And yeah Nemesis, I just feel like they were running out of ideas on how to make a very diplomatic series fit on the big screen
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legendarylemur posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

legendarylemur posted...

but why every single movie though, when he's the indomitable captain in his series?

That's probably why, actually. I think it made more sense in Generations and First Contact. Not so much in Nemesis.

Generations was a bit forced imo, though I couldn't believe they killed off his brother so suddenly. First Contact was where he was the most convincing, and that made his return to form all the more reasonable.

And yeah Nemesis, I just feel like they were running out of ideas on how to make a very diplomatic series fit on the big screen

I agree about Generations but it still at least gave weight to Picard's dilemma later in the film (to leave the Nexus or not). They just did it in a fairly lazy way. Much more time was given to Kirk's dilemma. Maybe it was a matter of time constraints, I dunno. As an aside I don't think most people even get what the film is about, and I think if they did it would be viewed more favorably.

There were so many missed opportunities in Nemesis it's sad. I mean the whole thing was about the Romulans and doppelgangers and they still somehow didn't include Sela.
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First Contact is a really weird movie in that it's essentially two movies. One if about Picard and a few other people fending off a Borg invasion and the other is about Riker, Troi, and Geordi(?) helping a drunken dude invent a spaceship.

SpiralDrift posted...

they still somehow didn't include Sela.

I don't really see a lot of opinions on Star Trek. Am I alone in thinking that Sela is a terrible character?
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pegusus123456 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

they still somehow didn't include Sela.

I don't really see a lot of opinions on Star Trek. Am I alone in thinking that Sela is a terrible character?

A cameo would have been enough just to tie up the loose end.
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I barely remember the TNG era movies, but I like the Kelvinverse so I'm guessing no matter what I say, I'm wrong.

The only thing I disliked about First Contact was the Borg Queen.

Don't get me wrong, Alice Kriege played her perfectly, I just didn't like the character from a conceptual point of view. The Borg are these menacing "faceless" enemies that hardly interact, only when really nessecary. They are "one" like their hivemind often suggested, so the concept of someone being above that and controlling them felt off.
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I felt the same way about the Borg Queen. It felt very shoehorned in. I didn't like how they reused the plot of someone using emotion to control Data either.

I think if there was no Borg Queen the story could have been darker somehow. She was only there because it was a movie and all movies need a villain.
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From this day and age? Hell no.
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pegusus123456 posted...

I don't really see a lot of opinions on Star Trek. Am I alone in thinking that Sela is a terrible character?

I think most people dislike Sela, but she's so much better than Tasha Yar that you look past things about Sela
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I liked Tasha Yar fine tbh. Mostly because of her sendoff in Yesterday's Enterprise which is why I dislike Sela.
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pegusus123456 posted...

I liked Tasha Yar fine tbh. Mostly because of her sendoff in Yesterday's Enterprise which is why I dislike Sela.

I still firmly believe that Tasha Yar would have become an awesome character had she been with the show longer. A lot of the characters in the first season weren't very likable and pretty bland. It took a couple of seasons of development before the characters really clicked. Even fan favorite Worf, who in theory was the first of his kind in Star Fleet and therefore instantly interesting, was pretty bland in the first season.

The best Star Trek movie is Wrath of Khan.
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Worf wasn't bland so much as drop-dead stupid.
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I feel like all of the TNG movies dropped the ball, tbh. They killed off characters without really earning it and without much reason. First Contact is by far the best of them, but the Borg Queen almost ruins the Borg for me.

I dunno... they're still enjoyable, but I feel that there are dozens of TV episodes that are better than the movies. First Contact is really the only film I'd rank among my favorite TNG stories, mainly because everything other than the Borg Queen is actually pretty excellent.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Worf wasn't bland so much as drop-dead stupid.

They all held the idiot ball seasons 1+2. Remember Doctor Pulaski? Who hated Data for literally no reason other than he was artificial, despite mounds of evidence that he was more human than some of the aliens they encountered, and then she fell in love with a hologram? Yeah, stupid.

Why does everyone hate the Borg Queen? I get that it was a bit awkward, but it actually sort of made sense. First, she showed up after Locutus, which means the Borg realized the potential of having a humanoid mouthpiece. Second, as much as I love the Borg, where exactly were they supposed to go with it? Literally every episode was just them showing up, threatening everyone, and then the crew shoots their way out. Awesome, but would have gotten old if they just kept the same plot.

Eh, Pulaski had a pretty decent arc with Data for only being there one season. People like to forget that she eventually came around and even defended him once or twice.
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SpiralDrift posted...

Eh, Pulaski had a pretty decent arc with Data for only being there one season. People like to forget that she eventually came around and even defended him once or twice.

Begrudgingly? I honestly don't remember this at all. Then again, I try to forget most of the first couple seasons.

Still, lots of stupidity all around.

Dash_Harber posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

Eh, Pulaski had a pretty decent arc with Data for only being there one season. People like to forget that she eventually came around and even defended him once or twice.

Begrudgingly? I honestly don't remember this at all. Then again, I try to forget most of the first couple seasons.

Still, lots of stupidity all around.

It was toward the end of the season and I don't remember which episodes. But yeah, it's such a short-lived thing before she leaves the ship I guess it's easy to forget. Also I think Pulaski makes more sense if you take her as McCoy 2.0.
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Dash_Harber posted...

Why does everyone hate the Borg Queen? I get that it was a bit awkward, but it actually sort of made sense. First, she showed up after Locutus, which means the Borg realized the potential of having a humanoid mouthpiece.

First Contact retconned the episode to the Queen always being there and Picard simply forgetting her.

The issue people have with the Queen is that it cuts down the effectiveness of the Borg. No longer are they a cold, immovable, all-knowing chorus. Now they can simply be reduced to one more alien that they have to kill. Admittedly, this only really became an issue with Voyager which just utterly ruined the Borg in ways that had nothing to do with the Queen.


SpiralDrift posted...

Eh, Pulaski had a pretty decent arc with Data for only being there one season. People like to forget that she eventually came around and even defended him once or twice.

She was still a massive bitch though. And there's not really any one scene where she realizes that Data is more human than she believes, it's more that she just stops talking shit to him.
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pegusus123456 posted...

First Contact retconned the episode to the Queen always being there and Picard simply forgetting her.

Ah, well that is stupid.

pegusus123456 posted...

The issue people have with the Queen is that it cuts down the effectiveness of the Borg. No longer are they a cold, immovable, all-knowing chorus. Now they can simply be reduced to one more alien that they have to kill. Admittedly, this only really became an issue with Voyager which just utterly ruined the Borg in ways that had nothing to do with the Queen.

I honestly thought the Borg fit well in Voyager, but I get how people felt that way. Honestly, though, where else were they supposed to go with them? It's Alien all over again. No matter how you change the alien terror, it's going to ruin it for somebody.

Dash_Harber posted...

Ah, well that is stupid.

Saying he forgot is probably a bit of a simplification. The implication was that the Borg took the memory from him.

Dash_Harber posted...

I honestly thought the Borg fit well in Voyager, but I get how people felt that way. Honestly, though, where else were they supposed to go with them? It's Alien all over again. No matter how you change the alien terror, it's going to ruin it for somebody.

It's not simply that they used the Borg, Voyager used the Borg badly. For an example, in Unimatrix Zero, the Queen becomes aware that a minuscule subset of drones regain their individuality when they regenerate and have created a shared, virtual world where they just sorta hang out. She wants some information about this, so she interrogates one of the drones and tortures him by disconnecting him from the Collective. Lemme say that again. She interrogates someone she shares a mind with. And disconnects him from the hive mind to try and get an answer.

Voyager just had dumb writers.
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My problem with the Borg Queen is twofold:
-She's antithetical to the concept of the Collective
-She's got too much human personality (lacks the cold, efficient, uncaring, Terminator-esque demeanor)

The Borg were terrifying at first because they didn't stop to have a conversation with anyone. When Picard tries diplomacy the first time in the TV series, the Borg just start talking over him like he's nothing, and then start carving up the ship. When Locutus is trotted out as a mouthpiece for the Borg, it's chilling because he doesn't behave like the Borg Queen; it's just Picard's body with the mechanical voice of the Collective.

Where were they supposed to go with it, you ask? They ought to have kept Borg appearances rare and used them sparingly (i.e. not run them into the ground like they did in Voyager). They should have shown restraint. When you overexpose the monster, it loses its mystique and is no longer terrifying.
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I'm not a big First Contact fan, but the movie works a lot better when you watch it seeing Zefram Cochrane as a stand in for Gene Rodenberry. And Ron Moore apparently didn't even intend for that to be the case.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Saying he forgot is probably a bit of a simplification. The implication was that the Borg took the memory from him.

That was how I took it. The retcon is still pretty annoying though. I think it takes something away from Best of Both Worlds.
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Into Darkness was the best one
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Which one had Cumberbatch as Kaah? That one.
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pegusus123456 posted...

It's not simply that they used the Borg, Voyager used the Borg badly. For an example, in Unimatrix Zero, the Queen becomes aware that a minuscule subset of drones regain their individuality when they regenerate and have created a shared, virtual world where they just sorta hang out. She wants some information about this, so she interrogates one of the drones and tortures him by disconnecting him from the Collective. Lemme say that again. She interrogates someone she shares a mind with. And disconnects him from the hive mind to try and get an answer.

Voyager just had dumb writers.

Eh, people shit on Voyager but it had some genuinely good parts. The torture thing is meh, we don't know how the hivemind deals with pain, or what exactly torturing entails. Going in to any Star Trek, the general rule of thumb is assume that their technology and species run completely differently than ours.

Deadpool_18 posted...

Which one had Cumberbatch as Kaah? That one.

MabusIncarnate posted...

Into Darkness was the best one

High five
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MabusIncarnate posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

Which one had Cumberbatch as Kaah? That one.

MabusIncarnate posted...

Into Darkness was the best one

High five

Yes, that one was amazing.

I thought Into Darkness was the worst of the Abrams movies, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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MabusIncarnate posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

Which one had Cumberbatch as Kaah? That one.

MabusIncarnate posted...

Into Darkness was the best one

High five

Yusssss
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Dash_Harber posted...

Eh, people shit on Voyager but it had some genuinely good parts. The torture thing is meh, we don't know how the hivemind deals with pain, or what exactly torturing entails. Going in to any Star Trek, the general rule of thumb is assume that their technology and species run completely differently than ours.

It's not the torture. It's that she can read the dude's mind and stops reading his mind to try and figure out what he knows.

An Voyager did have genuinely good parts. It's just that they're generally outweighed by the wasted potential.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

MabusIncarnate posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

Which one had Cumberbatch as Kaah? That one.

MabusIncarnate posted...

Into Darkness was the best one

High five

Yusssss

Also, gains the crown for having one of the most badass encounters with the Klingons in recent memory. Those Kelvinverse Klingons were fucking awesome.

CW_McGraw posted...

I'm not a big First Contact fan, but the movie works a lot better when you watch it seeing Zefram Cochrane as a stand in for Gene Rodenberry. And Ron Moore apparently didn't even intend for that to be the case.

Interesting - how so?

Ruvan22 posted...

CW_McGraw posted...

I'm not a big First Contact fan, but the movie works a lot better when you watch it seeing Zefram Cochrane as a stand in for Gene Rodenberry. And Ron Moore apparently didn't even intend for that to be the case.

Interesting - how so?

If you know the history of Gene Rodenberry, you know that as the convention scene sprung up after Trek went off the air, a mythology arose around him. He was said to be a visionary who offered an optimistic view of the future, free of the calamities of the Cold War and of the 20th century. But Rodenberry was a more complicated man than that. He was a womanizer who left his wife to be with his mistress Majel Barret, who he cheated on/had an open marriage with until his death. He was addicted to various substances throughout the 70s and 80s. To the writers of TNG who grew up watching TOS and looking up to Rodenberry, meeting him in person would have defied the mythologized picture they had in their minds.

The meeting between the Enterprise crew and Cochrane mirrors this process of disillusionment. They expected Zefram Cochrane to be this wise steadfast scientist, but are shocked to find out Cochrane is crude, rock and roll loving, hard drinking, pervert. Despite their flaws, both Rodenberry and Cochrane are important figures who provide a great spark for projects that would outlive either of them.

It's like poetry. It rhymes.
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CW_McGraw posted...

It's like poetry. It rhymes.

Whoa, slow down there, Mr. Lucas.
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Dash_Harber posted...

I still firmly believe that Tasha Yar would have become an awesome character had she been with the show longer.

I f-ing loved Yar and was pissed when she got killed off.

SpiralDrift posted...

Also I think Pulaski makes more sense if you take her as McCoy 2.0.

True. They tried to go the "emotional-hardass-takes-issue-with-emotionless-brainiac" McCoy/Spock route with Pulaski/Data but it didn't really work
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I got chills when they revealed Enterprise-A at the end of ST Beyond so I hope the Kelvin-verse continues to be good
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We did in 2009.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Eh, people shit on Voyager but it had some genuinely good parts. The torture thing is meh, we don't know how the hivemind deals with pain, or what exactly torturing entails. Going in to any Star Trek, the general rule of thumb is assume that their technology and species run completely differently than ours.

It's not the torture. It's that she can read the dude's mind and stops reading his mind to try and figure out what he knows.

An Voyager did have genuinely good parts. It's just that they're generally outweighed by the wasted potential.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my feelings about Voyager. It's not bad. It's actually pretty good for a sci-fi series. It's just depressing how much potential it had and threw it all away.

Voyager also suffers from being produced in the latter half of the 90's, when CGI was still fairly primitive, but overconfidence in CGI prowess was at an all-time high.
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Polycosm posted...

Voyager also suffers from being produced in the latter half of the 90's, when CGI was still fairly primitive, but overconfidence in CGI prowess was at an all-time high.

Oh god, Species 8472. Just ... 8472.

Actually, they could have been pretty cool villains. I'd love to see them done nowadays with better CGI/practical effects.