Current Events > What do you think of the "gap theory" in relation to Christianity?

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's the belief that in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, there was another world that God created before the one that we inhabit now, but was destroyed for some reason. Some use this to explain where the dinosaurs came from.

https://www.gotquestions.org/gap-theory.html

Genesis 1:1-2 states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely--most likely the fall of Satan to earth--so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis.

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Sounds like the rest of Christianity - completely made up.
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If the dinosaurs came from another world, why are their bones in ours? Unless you mean that God wiped Earth's surface clean after a previous trial, but left residues of the first attempt under the surface.
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scar the 1 posted...

Sounds like the rest of Christianity - completely made up.

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Post hoc nonsense to justify bronze age myths that people were indoctrinated to and haven't been able to break out of.
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Jar Jar Binks was the snake.
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Laserion posted...

If the dinosaurs came from another world, why are their bones in ours? Unless you mean that God wiped Earth's surface clean after a previous trial, but left residues of the first attempt under the surface.

Yeah, our world was built on top of the old one, according to this theory.
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I have never heard of this theory.

Sounds like something an anime or a JRPG would have, and conveniently explains away a ton of inconsistencies.
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Is there any actual testimony of this first world in the Bible, or is this just another apologist anachronistic creation to explain the glaring pot-holes in what should be (And is proposed as) a divine, perfect, and immutable religious source?
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voldothegr8 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Sounds like the rest of Christianity - completely made up.

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Added a more detailed description and link to the OP.
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1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In verse 2 the word "was" is more accurately translated became.

The bible teaches that there was a living world prior to Adam and Eve, and that world was devastated by a massive event and it became without form and void. This event was when Lucifer tried to overthrow the kingdom of God. He was kicked out of heaven and into the world and ravaged it killing all living things (which included dinosaurs and prehistoric man).

Later in Genesis it talks about how God rebuilt the earth. The confusion about this record is that people do not understand the difference between the words formed, made, and created. Adam and Eve were not the first people created. But they were the first people with spirit life (which is what God created at this time).

No, but there's definitely a lot of time between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3
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Complete nonsense but at least it's nonsense that lets people believe in dinosaurs and fossil records and stuff.
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Never heard it put that way, but I have heard that this Earth is a recreation, though in that theory any previous Earths happened entirely before Genesis 1:1.

I dunno why you would want to insert it between 1:1 and 1:2, unless you're caught up on "the beginning" meaning "the beginning of the first Earth" instead of "the beginning of our Earth."

But I don't like this theory either way, as Proverbs 8 revisits the creation story and uses diction that would actually imply that our Earth was made at "the very beginning." Though it's only an implication, and I suppose it doesn't close the door entirely.
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DevsBro posted...

Never heard it put that way, but I have heard that this Earth is a recreation, though in that theory any previous Earths happened entirely before Genesis 1:1.

I dunno why you would want to insert it between 1:1 and 1:2, unless you're caught up on "the beginning" meaning "the beginning of the first Earth" instead of "the beginning of our Earth."

But I don't like this theory either way, as Proverbs 8 revisits the creation story and uses diction that would actually imply that our Earth was made at "the very beginning." Though it's only an implication, and I suppose it doesn't close the door entirely.

It can't be before Genesis 1:1 because Genesis 1:1 involves God creating the Universe itself.
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That hack Yaldabaoth may have made several attempts at "godding".
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Seeing as how Genesis has all this insider information on the creation of the world, and even the history of that world before it was destroyed in the Flood, its total silence on what supposedly happened to God's first attempt is ... inexplicable. Why the mysterious gap? Why does Genesis say not one word about a cosmic battle between God and Lucifer in its creation story?

So yeah, this is just creationists retconning their own holy scripture in a desperate attempt to make embarrassing fiction fit inconvenient facts.
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scar the 1 posted...

Sounds like the rest of Christianity - completely made up.

This.
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That's a hell of an extrapolation between the first two lines of the entire book.

It can't be before Genesis 1:1 because Genesis 1:1 involves God creating the Universe itself.

True. I suppose that could also be a recreation, though I don't know how dinosaur bones would survive something like that.
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KiwiTerraRizing posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Sounds like the rest of Christianity - completely made up.

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So yeah, this is just creationists retconning their own holy scripture in a desperate attempt to make embarrassing fiction fit inconvenient facts.

It's completely unnecessary, too. There's no problem to solve. God can do whatever he wants. If he wants to put rocks in the ground that appear by any scientific analysis to be the bones of animals that lived millions of years ago, that's a simple little thing. Or if he wanted to make sure they survive some cosmic recreation of Earth, he could do that too.
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2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

The Bible cant possible contain all stories, and God did a reset later, but thanks to Noah he decided to save the human race and all animals.
So if you believe in the Bible, I cant see any reasons why God couldnt have tried something else before starting over.
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DevsBro posted...

It can't be before Genesis 1:1 because Genesis 1:1 involves God creating the Universe itself.

True. I suppose that could also be a recreation, though I don't know how dinosaur bones would survive something like that.

If you are creating something and then decides to start over, would you reinvent the wheel again or reuse some parts?
Wait a minute, I already got a nice planet that can host life, if I move around the land mass some and add some dirt above the old stuff, then I got time over to watch that show!
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I dunno what God would do.

The reason I would reuse stuff is because time and effort are involved in doing stuff. For God? Not so much.
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It sounds completely messy and unneeded for a being like God --- you know, the all powerful entity that can create the universe in a perfect way instantly but instead we need a fairy tale about him messing up the creation instead.

BalisticWarri0r posted...

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In verse 2 the word "was" is more accurately translated became.

The bible teaches that there was a living world prior to Adam and Eve, and that world was devastated by a massive event and it became without form and void. This event was when Lucifer tried to overthrow the kingdom of God. He was kicked out of heaven and into the world and ravaged it killing all living things (which included dinosaurs and prehistoric man).

Later in Genesis it talks about how God rebuilt the earth. The confusion about this record is that people do not understand the difference between the words formed, made, and created. Adam and Eve were not the first people created. But they were the first people with spirit life (which is what God created at this time).

Satan comes before God in heaven in the book of Job.
This implies he wasn't kicked out until the time of christ. Infact, this is sorta suggested by the all the sudden demon possession that happen to people at this time.
In the Old Testament prior you don't find possession. The priests of the Old Testament unlike Catholic Priests have no spells or rituals to remove demons, suggesting it wasn't an issue until about the time of Christ and after Christianity had spread it was never a problem ever again as well.
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It's like reading A Tale of Two Cities, and somehow deciding there was several decades of "it was the not-quite-so-bad of times" hidden in the opening line somewhere.

Sounds like a fanfic within a fanfic.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

BalisticWarri0r posted...

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In verse 2 the word "was" is more accurately translated became.

The bible teaches that there was a living world prior to Adam and Eve, and that world was devastated by a massive event and it became without form and void. This event was when Lucifer tried to overthrow the kingdom of God. He was kicked out of heaven and into the world and ravaged it killing all living things (which included dinosaurs and prehistoric man).

Later in Genesis it talks about how God rebuilt the earth. The confusion about this record is that people do not understand the difference between the words formed, made, and created. Adam and Eve were not the first people created. But they were the first people with spirit life (which is what God created at this time).

Satan comes before God in heaven in the book of Job.
This implies he wasn't kicked out until the time of christ. Infact, this is sorta suggested by the all the sudden demon possession that happen to people at this time.
In the Old Testament prior you don't find possession. The priests of the Old Testament unlike Catholic Priests have no spells or rituals to remove demons, suggesting it wasn't an issue until about the time of Christ and after Christianity had spread it was never a problem ever again as well.

Actually, there's speculation that the Book of Job takes places in the distant past in relation to almost everything else in the Old Testiment.

http://www.bibletimelines.net/article/88/available-timelines-sorted-by-category/chronological-bible
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=441

Even though 2 Chronicles appears before the book of Job, the events recorded in Job took place long before those that are recorded in 2 Chronicles. In fact, if the Bible were a book of strict chronology, the events recorded in Job likely would be placed somewhere within the book of Genesis, after Genesis 6 (since Job 22:15-16 is more than likely a reference to the Flood).

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Solar_Crimson posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

BalisticWarri0r posted...

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In verse 2 the word "was" is more accurately translated became.

The bible teaches that there was a living world prior to Adam and Eve, and that world was devastated by a massive event and it became without form and void. This event was when Lucifer tried to overthrow the kingdom of God. He was kicked out of heaven and into the world and ravaged it killing all living things (which included dinosaurs and prehistoric man).

Later in Genesis it talks about how God rebuilt the earth. The confusion about this record is that people do not understand the difference between the words formed, made, and created. Adam and Eve were not the first people created. But they were the first people with spirit life (which is what God created at this time).

Satan comes before God in heaven in the book of Job.
This implies he wasn't kicked out until the time of christ. Infact, this is sorta suggested by the all the sudden demon possession that happen to people at this time.
In the Old Testament prior you don't find possession. The priests of the Old Testament unlike Catholic Priests have no spells or rituals to remove demons, suggesting it wasn't an issue until about the time of Christ and after Christianity had spread it was never a problem ever again as well.

Actually, there's speculation that the Book of Job takes places in the distant past in relation to almost everything else in the Old Testiment.

http://www.bibletimelines.net/article/88/available-timelines-sorted-by-category/chronological-bible
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=441

Even though 2 Chronicles appears before the book of Job, the events recorded in Job took place long before those that are recorded in 2 Chronicles. In fact, if the Bible were a book of strict chronology, the events recorded in Job likely would be placed somewhere within the book of Genesis, after Genesis 6 (since Job 22:15-16 is more than likely a reference to the Flood).

distant past is still after the Genesis creation account

still after Adam and Eve

and that is the point
Satan came up to meet with God as it says like the other children of God (angels) routinely do

Like a status meeting at work
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darkphoenix181 posted...

distant past is still after the Genesis creation account

still after Adam and Eve

and that is the point
Satan came up to meet with God as it says like the other children of God (angels) routinely do

Like a status meeting at work

Of course, this also depends on whether you're taking about the rebel Lucifer or Satan. In Hebrew lore, the two of them are separate entities, with Lucifer being cast down from Heaven, and Satan being a subordinate of God.
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Solar_Crimson posted...

(since Job 22:15-16 is more than likely a reference to the Flood)

Job 22 is mostly Eliphaz the Temanite, which places the timeframe from 1300bc to 125bc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom

Twelve hundred years is a lot of wiggle room.

Solar_Crimson posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

distant past is still after the Genesis creation account

still after Adam and Eve

and that is the point
Satan came up to meet with God as it says like the other children of God (angels) routinely do

Like a status meeting at work

Of course, this also depends on whether you're taking about the rebel Lucifer or Satan. In Hebrew lore, the two of them are separate entities, with Lucifer being cast down from Heaven, and Satan being a subordinate of God.

Jesus never says Lucifer.
Jesus says he saw Satan cast down from heaven like lightning. He tells Peter to get behind me Satan. He is tempted in the desert by Satan etc.

Lucifer is also likely another myth due to misunderstanding as it was referring to the King of Babylon and takes a lot of mental gymnastics to equate that with being Satan.

That is, you will find nowhere in the bible it said that Lucifer is an angel who fell from heaven. Not from the bible.

You will find in Revelations however that there was a war in heaven where that old dragon named SATAN fought against Micheal.
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myzz007 posted...

It sounds completely messy and unneeded for a being like God --- you know, the all powerful entity that can create the universe in a perfect way instantly

Yeah, I remember reading on a different forum where Christians from 2 sides (one believing that creationism and evolution can coexist and the other believing in the literal creationism gospel) there was one creationist user that brought up a good point. If the Judeo Christian God from the bible is this all powerful entity, why would he use one of the most inefficient and unnecessarily messy way (like survival of the fittest) for life to progress? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to make them perfect at the start?

It was an interesting discussion.
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It's pretty dumb to think there's another whole history of the universe sandwiched between 2 sentences lol. Especially when the 2 sentences flow together just fine.
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scar the 1 posted...

Sounds like the rest of Christianity - completely made up.

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darkphoenix181 posted...

Solar_Crimson posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

distant past is still after the Genesis creation account

still after Adam and Eve

and that is the point
Satan came up to meet with God as it says like the other children of God (angels) routinely do

Like a status meeting at work

Of course, this also depends on whether you're taking about the rebel Lucifer or Satan. In Hebrew lore, the two of them are separate entities, with Lucifer being cast down from Heaven, and Satan being a subordinate of God.

Jesus never says Lucifer.
Jesus says he saw Satan cast down from heaven like lightning. He tells Peter to get behind me Satan. He is tempted in the desert by Satan etc.

Lucifer is also likely another myth due to misunderstanding as it was referring to the King of Babylon and takes a lot of mental gymnastics to equate that with being Satan.

That is, you will find nowhere in the bible it said that Lucifer is an angel who fell from heaven. Not from the bible.

You will find in Revelations however that there was a war in heaven where that old dragon named SATAN fought against Micheal.

Satan tells God in job that he was walking to and fro on the earth. He was doing this because he was banished after his fall.

What point would it be to use his name Lucifer? He is no longer one of the 3 arch angels, but the god of this world and the adversary of the true God.

BalisticWarri0r posted...

Satan tells God in job that he was walking to and fro on the earth. He was doing this because he was banished after his fall.

What point would it be to use his name Lucifer? He is no longer one of the 3 arch angels, but the god of this world and the adversary of the true God.

Lucifer isn't even a name btw
It is poerty which means the morning star since that was the brightest star
the passage literally is saying the king of babylon was like a morning star in glory and excellence being that he crafted a huge empire that covered the earth at the time
and now God has brought his kingdom low for the idolatry it practiced among other things

the idea that Lucifer is the name of Satan is unsupported and ridiculous; if you didn't know Jesus is also called the morning star in a passage fyi
also Satan isn't a name, it means false accuser, it is basically a title which explains what the creature is busy doing

basically the implication of Satan is that there was an angel which kept bringing up things about men to make them look bad so that God would destroy them
this is literally what he does in the book of Job
he says "sure Job is a loyal servant, but only cause you gave him good things, take them away and he will rebel"

about him walking the earth, it could be that it refers to his fall, however this is making an assumption that walking the earth is not a standard angelic task
in Ezekiel God sends out his 4 spirits to go to and fro throughout the whole earth suggesting it is

and if he was kicked out of heaven why does the angels at the gate let him enter and come have audience with the king?


with this info you can see a huge gaping hole in Lucifer rhetoric
they claim God kicked him out because he wanted to be like God and was the most beautiful angel

but that is all made up and taken from a passage that can barely be related to Satan expressly talking about the king of babylon

instead we find an angel who was called Satan existed in heaven constantly bringing up about how evil and bad men were
do you not think that would be the reason he got kicked out and condemned? and it makes logical parity with the garden of eden
that being to get man to fall was to prove how unworthy man was and how he should be killed
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why would this theory need to exist? dinosaurs themselves don't discredit the Bible.
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Lightsasori posted...

myzz007 posted...

It sounds completely messy and unneeded for a being like God --- you know, the all powerful entity that can create the universe in a perfect way instantly

Yeah, I remember reading on a different forum where Christians from 2 sides (one believing that creationism and evolution can coexist and the other believing in the literal creationism gospel) there was one creationist user that brought up a good point. If the Judeo Christian God from the bible is this all powerful entity, why would he use one of the most inefficient and unnecessarily messy way (like survival of the fittest) for life to progress? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to make them perfect at the start?

It was an interesting discussion.

It is an excellent argument, but it does not follow-through to its logical conclusion. If God created man and animals with the intent that man be dominant over all, why did he create animals that could seriously harm and kill humans? Why did he create animals that are directly detrimental to human beings? And why did he create animals that are entirely inconsequential to humans or animals that were quickly extincted by humans? The only way to make sense of the Bibilical good is to first concede he is an exceptionally irrational actor despite his omnipotence and omniknowledge. What he does only borders on what could be considered logical to humans. Thus, it is also illogical for God to have endowed us with limited logical capacity that we then have to ignore to rationalize a belief in God, whilst simultaneously relying on said logic to obey our biological imperative to survive.

It's a bit of a cruel jest.
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_Near_ posted...

Sounds like a fanfic within a fanfic.

Pretty much. Since the BIBLE IS WHOLLY TRUE, Gen 1:2 and Gen 1:1 are also both true. So we'll handwave up some mental gymnastics to reconcile the two points.
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an interesting read

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/luciferinisaiah14.html

in addition to the Lucifer story basically being made up by not understanding a biblical passage

it is actually stolen from pagan mythology, which as you know is what Catholics are guilty of doing quite often

"In ancient Canaanite mythology, the morning star is pictured as a god, Attar, who attempted to occupy the throne of Ba'al and, finding he was unable to do so, descended and ruled the underworld. The original myth may have been about a lesser god Helel trying to dethrone the Canaanite high god El who lived on a mountain to the north. Similarities have been noted also with the story of Ishtar's or Inanna's descent into the underworld, Ishtar and Inanna being associated with the planet Venus. The Babylonian myth of Etana has also been seen as connected.

"In Canaanite mythology from Ugarit, the god Athtar seems to be connected with the morning star. At one point, the gods attempted to replace Baal with Athtar, but he declined, as he found that he was unsuited for the position. The throne was too large for him. Athtar was the son of the Ugarit god El and his wife Asherah. Athtar was the chief god in the South Arabic pantheon, known there as an astral deity, THE PLANET VENUS. In the Ugarit world he was known as 'the terrible, awesome one' or as 'the lion.' Some have translated the first epithet as 'a flash [of lightning].' The Ugaritic text 49, column 1, tells how his greed for power caused him to ascend the vacant throne of Baal, who had been dealt a death blow by the god of death, Mot. Assisted by his mother, he attempted to fill the vacuum left by Baal, but he was unable to do so. His feet did not reach the footstool, and his head did not clear the top of the throne. So he descended from the throne of Baal, stepping down so that 'he might rule over the grand earth.' Like Isaiah's Lucifer, he had aspired to ascend to a throne above the heavens but suffered a fall" (Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce and Manfred T. Brauch. InterVasity Press, 1996, pp. 302-303).

and the actual context of the verse:

"Pronouncing Babylon's doom. Isaiah now looks past the Assyrian's day into the TIME OF BABYLON'S ZENITH. Listen! The sound of numerous people, the uproar of kingdoms, of nations gathered together! Jehovah is mustering the army of war! It is a dark day for Babylon. Amazed faces flame and hearts melt. The pitiless Medes will tumble Babylon, 'the decoration of kingdoms.' She is to become an uninhabited desolation and a haunt of wild creatures 'for generation after generation.' (13:19, 20) The dead in Sheol are stirred to receive the king of Babylon. Maggots become his couch and worms his covering. What a comedown for this 'shining one, the son of the dawn'! (14:12) He [the king of Babylon] aspired to God's throne but has become a carcass thrown out, as Jehovah sweeps Babylon with the broom of annihilation. No name, no remnant, no progeny, no posterity are to remain!" (Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, 1963, p. 120).

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also the argument that Isaiah 14 is an allegory for the fall of Satan named Lucifer is ignorance of what an allegory even is:

http://allegory.happykidsschool.com.tw/home/module2/what-is-allegory

What allegory isn't
While allegories use metaphor, symbolism, personification, and other literary devices to deliver their message, these devices are not by themselves an allegory. Take Maus for example. Maus is an example of an extended visual metaphor where the artist uses animal characters to communicate hidden meanings about different racial groups to tell a Holocaust survival story. It is a brilliant use of symbolism and metaphor over the course of an entire story, but it is not an allegory because it uses real events, real places, and real characters. Take away the art, the drawings of the animals, and the story is a biography of a Holocaust survivor and his son.

See, the issue is all the things said there were true of a real life King of Babylon. You can see the fall of this such king in the book of Daniel.
Isaiah isn't making up a story to tell us about Satan's fall, he is literally telling us about the King of babylon being cut down and his empire given to the medes and the persians.
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