Current Events > Millennial women are 'worried,' 'ashamed' of out-earning boyfriends and husbands

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/18/millennial-women-worry-about-out-earning-boyfriends-and-husbands.html

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/08/384695833/what-happens-when-wives-earn-more-than-husbands

It's no longer rare for women in relationships to out-earn their husbands or boyfriends — in 2015, for example, 38 percent of American wives made more money than their husbands — but many women remain ambivalent about being breadwinners, reports Ashley C. Ford for Refinery29.

Ford, who is herself unbothered about making 70 percent more than her own male partner, tries to understand why so many of the millennials she speaks to report feeling concerned, or even ashamed, about the repercussions of their success.

The feedback they receive from the culture is clear: Men should be earning more so that they can provide for their families, and if they don't, it's symptomatic of a problem. These messages produce an "almost unavoidable emotional and psychological consequence," Ford writes. Women feel guilty. Men feel emasculated.


Indeed, some of the women Ford speaks to shrug off the issue. A few wish their partners earned more but wouldn't want them to take unfulfilling jobs. Others, like Ford, wish instead the culture would catch up with the idea that it doesn't matter who brings home the bacon as long as the family has food.

Largely, though, Ford reports, earning more has negative repercussions for women. They feel anxious, even resentful. "Unlike the traditional trajectory of men who earn more, or are sole financial providers, most of these millennial women either believe out-earning their partners is temporary, or lament the idea that it may not be," she reports.

The laments she has heard are backed up by data, according to Mona Chalabi of fivethirtyeight.com. She summarized University of Chicago Booth School of Business findings for NPR, saying that, in their sample, dissatisfaction increased, and could lead to divorce, "once a woman started to earn more than her husband."

And the amount didn't appear to be relevant: "Whether the wife earns a little bit more or a lot more doesn't actually make much of a difference," says Chalabi.

The University of Chicago found that a wife making even $5,000 a year more than her husband was associated with a greater risk of divorce.

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Ford writes that "the overwhelming majority of millennial women breadwinners don't believe the men in their lives should feel emasculated by the gap in their income." Now they're waiting for the overwhelming majority of Americans in general to catch up.

So, once a woman starts making more money than you - the divorce rates increase.

So, feminists are basically going to rule the world not long from now and use us men as disposable sperm, tbh.
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Sounds perfect
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Feminists want to be treated as equal in the business world, get treated equal, and now they want the man to make more money.

I'm confused.
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Couldn't it also be that men can't handle the idea of their wife making more than them? :u
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My wife makes more than me and I have no problem with that. It evens out more when you count my intangible earnings (the free house my job pays for us, the eating allowance, etc.), but in the end she makes more and I love it. She's quite the keeper.
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Caution999 posted...

Feminists want to be treated as equal in the business world, get treated equal, and now they want the man to make more money.

I'm confused.

*makes sign* "I need feminism because I have too much feminism"
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Caution999 posted...

Feminists want to be treated as equal in the business world, get treated equal, and now they want the man to make more money.

I'm confused.

But...

Caution999 posted...

Others, like Ford, wish instead the culture would catch up with the idea that it doesn't matter who brings home the bacon as long as the family has food.

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Caution999 posted...

Feminists want to be treated as equal in the business world, get treated equal, and now they want the man to make more money.

I'm confused.

Feminism is contrary to biology and human nature.

Women aren't attracted to men with less resources than themselves. They now have equal resources and are upset that they are no longer attracted to the men.

A woman with a degree or a job sees a man without a degree or a lower paying job as "lesser" therefore the attraction switches don't fire. She then demands her man be better, higher paid, and more educated.

Then she claims men doing better is patriarchy and demands equal advancement for women. Vicious cycle.

Women are pricing themselves out of the dating market.
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I would love if my wife made more than me. What idiot wouldn't want to maximize their profit and finances? The more money your wife makes, the better off you are. Only
insecure dweebs would get all butthurt about their wife making more money.
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Women themselves don't want a guy earning less than them. I mean why would they? That means they need to be hold accountable for something for once.
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No worries. When automation takes over in a few decades, most people will be out of work anyway.
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So much for the gender wage gap, eh?
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the real question to ask yourself is 'will my partner treat me with equal respect in our partnership'

and it sounds like for a lot of people the answer is no

if your partner isn't going to treat you with equal respect regardless of material situations you each are in, you should not marry them.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

Couldn't it also be that men can't handle the idea of their wife making more than them? :u

No because men don't really care about what job or degree their girlfriend/wife has as long as she's attractive and likes him.

Women are the ones most hung up on jobs, degrees, and social status. A small percentage of men care but a majority of women care.

An example is the black community where many women complain about lack of college educated men. Despite the fact black men on average make more money than black women, it's not enough. The women need a degree for the social status and aren't interested in an electrician or plumber who makes 75k but never went to college.

Feminism at work.
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CHALABI: But the findings are pretty depressing. So the author found that a man is more likely to cheat on his partner if he is more financially dependent on her. And men who are completely dependent on their girlfriends or wives are five times more likely to cheat than men who earn the same amount as their partners. And the explanation given here was basically the same as the housework thing. So it's basically about kind of men feeling like they need to conform to society's definitions of masculinity.

damn feminists
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De Evolution posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

Couldn't it also be that men can't handle the idea of their wife making more than them? :u

No because men don't really care about what job or degree their girlfriend/wife has as long as she's attractive and likes him.

Women are the ones most hung up on jobs, degrees, and social status. A small percentage of men care but a majority of women care.

An example is the black community where many women complain about lack of college educated men. Despite the fact black men on average make more money than black women, it's not enough. The women need a degree for the social status and aren't interested in an electrician or plumber who makes 75k but never went to college.

Feminism at work.

source on any of this? :u or are you just shitposting?
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ypu guys worry too much about your future wifebeing a total bitch


just don't date then

Sativa_Rose posted...

So much for the gender wage gap, eh?

Lol. If women were getting paid less, they would hire women way more just off that. These feminists don't think about this.
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Shit, I wish my fiancee made more than I did, I wish she even made 1/3 of what I do. We'd be sitting really pretty right now. My job is literally going to give me cancer though, so idk if it's really worth the money. It's not even a matter of if, just when.
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I don't bother trying to understand women anymore. Love my wife to death, but I simply can't understand a womans thought process sometimes.

Balrog0 posted...

CHALABI: But the findings are pretty depressing. So the author found that a man is more likely to cheat on his partner if he is more financially dependent on her. And men who are completely dependent on their girlfriends or wives are five times more likely to cheat than men who earn the same amount as their partners. And the explanation given here was basically the same as the housework thing. So it's basically about kind of men feeling like they need to conform to society's definitions of masculinity.

damn feminists

i am inclined to think some effects are not being studied here

people don't usually just cheat because it makes them feel like more of a man/woman

they usually cheat due to relationship instabilities

i could easily see that these attitudes in female primary breadwinners drive a power imbalance that is emotionally abusive and pushes the husbands to seek other partners (but not to leave the relationship, as the secondary breadwinner is likely to further hamper their career in order to pick up domestic tasks, and is thereby dependent on the primary)
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

De Evolution posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

Couldn't it also be that men can't handle the idea of their wife making more than them? :u

No because men don't really care about what job or degree their girlfriend/wife has as long as she's attractive and likes him.

Women are the ones most hung up on jobs, degrees, and social status. A small percentage of men care but a majority of women care.

An example is the black community where many women complain about lack of college educated men. Despite the fact black men on average make more money than black women, it's not enough. The women need a degree for the social status and aren't interested in an electrician or plumber who makes 75k but never went to college.

Feminism at work.

source on any of this? :u or are you just shitposting?

Sources on college educated black women not wanting to marry non-college educated black men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3247718/Study-reveals-harder-college-educated-females-black-women-spouses.html

http://madamenoire.com/588720/study-claims-marriageable-men-shortage-only-exists-among-blacks-and-the-highly-educated/

Source from pew research center that shows black men make more than black women despite not having degrees

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/


Since you seem to be a feminist I highly doubt you care about the facts, research, statistics, or truth in general but just in case there it is.
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Darkman124 posted...

if your partner isn't going to treat you with equal respect regardless of material situations you each are in, you should not marry them

This was essentially the main idea of that article after reading it. Self-insecurity in general can lead to unhealthiness in a relationship so it's not like one side earning more money than the other is any different than looking better, seeming smarter, etc.
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Caution999 posted...

Feminists want to be treated as equal in the business world, get treated equal, and now they want the man to make more money.

I'm confused.

Female Hypergamy, look it up.

Darkman124 posted...

i could easily see that these attitudes in female primary breadwinners drive a power imbalance that is emotionally abusive and pushes the husbands to seek other partners (but not to leave the relationship, as the secondary breadwinner is likely to further hamper their career in order to pick up domestic tasks, and is thereby dependent on the primary)

but they also found that women who make more than their husbands take on more of the household responsibilities than women who don't make more than their husbands

they attribute it to the same sort of thing (as is hinted to in that quote)

I tend to agree there is a lot of self-selection here though. If you have no income there are probably other things about you that caused you not to have income.
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De Evolution posted...

Sources on college educated black women not wanting to marry non-college educated black men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3247718/Study-reveals-harder-college-educated-females-black-women-spouses.html

http://madamenoire.com/588720/study-claims-marriageable-men-shortage-only-exists-among-blacks-and-the-highly-educated/

Source from pew research center that shows black men make more than black women despite not having degrees

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/


Since you seem to be a feminist I highly doubt you care about the facts, research, statistics, or truth in general but just in case there it is.

Nah, that isn't what I take issue with. My issue is with the fact you think you know what men and women prefer in their partners. :u
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It's socially accepted for the husband to earn more than the wife, but the other way around. There are a lot of social consequences when this happens. Women start look for stronger men who earns more money, but there are only so many of them to go around. The rest are stuck with men earning less than them.

Women instinctively look for a strong mate, but some men kinda stop being strong mates when the woman earns more. The men becomes less decisive, making them less masculine and in effect, making them less attractive.

I don't blame feminism for this problem, but I blame the weakness of millennial men, who has been weakened by liberalism and by too much wasted time playing video games.
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Women don't know what they want, and are pretty evil and selfish creatures. Big shocker.
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I've never understood guys that are insecure about the woman making more

Darkman124 posted...

Balrog0 posted...

CHALABI: But the findings are pretty depressing. So the author found that a man is more likely to cheat on his partner if he is more financially dependent on her. And men who are completely dependent on their girlfriends or wives are five times more likely to cheat than men who earn the same amount as their partners. And the explanation given here was basically the same as the housework thing. So it's basically about kind of men feeling like they need to conform to society's definitions of masculinity.

damn feminists

i am inclined to think some effects are not being studied here

people don't usually just cheat because it makes them feel like more of a man/woman

they usually cheat due to relationship instabilities

i could easily see that these attitudes in female primary breadwinners drive a power imbalance that is emotionally abusive and pushes the husbands to seek other partners (but not to leave the relationship, as the secondary breadwinner is likely to further hamper their career in order to pick up domestic tasks, and is thereby dependent on the primary)

What's being ignored is the innate desire/need most men have to feel masculine, which doesn't go away just because millennials dislike the concept of gender roles. If a man is not defending his wife/family through either physical strength of providing for their necessities (hunter/gatherer instinct), he doesn't really have any role that makes him feel like a man. The closest these men can apparently get to that feeling is through sexual promiscuity.
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https://hbr.org/2017/04/earning-less-than-their-wives-makes-u-s-men-more-partisan

interesting related study btw

I found that Republican men who contributed less to their household income than they did two years prior became significantly less supportive of abortion rights, and the more income that they lost relative to their spouses, the more their support for abortion dropped. About a quarter of men lost 38% or more in relative income (dropping, for instance, from 70% of the family’s income to 32%), and men who saw an income drop of that magnitude dropped by an average of of 0.3 points on the eight-point abortion scale (respondents were asked about seven situations in which a woman might want an abortion, and their score went up by one point each time they responded that they would support a woman’s right to have an abortion under those circumstances). Men who lost more in relative income — those in the top 10% of income losses — saw bigger decreases: up to 0.8 points on the scale.

Among Democratic men, losing income relative to their spouse led them to be, on average, about 0.5 points more supportive of abortion rights, while men who gained income relative to their spouses actually became less supportive. When faced with gender role threat, liberal men come to hold more liberal views on abortion, while conservative men come to hold more conservative views. To put these changes in perspective, the average difference between a liberal and a conservative on this scale is about two points, so moving even a tenth of a point represents a significant shift.

Similar effects hold for views on government aid to African Americans. It would normally be expected that individuals expressing extreme views would be a little less extreme two years later, and Democratic men do generally become a little less supportive, and Republican men generally become a little more supportive. However, Democratic men who lost income relative to their spouses became more supportive of aid to African Americans, while Republican men became less so.
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The Admiral posted...

What's being ignored is the innate desire/need most men have to feel masculine, which doesn't go away just because millennials dislike the concept of gender roles. If a man is not defending his wife/family through either physical strength of providing for their necessities (hunter/gatherer instinct), he doesn't really have any role that makes him feel like a man.

I don't think any one is ignoring that...
In fact I think people are directly addressing this. I think probably a lot of people would disagree with you if you mean to say men have an inherent need to be masculine (or that masculinity is something that is sort of objectively "out there") but I'm not really interested in that aspect of the conversation for the purposes of this topic

I can see ways that this would make men and women both unhappy
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

De Evolution posted...

Sources on college educated black women not wanting to marry non-college educated black men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3247718/Study-reveals-harder-college-educated-females-black-women-spouses.html

http://madamenoire.com/588720/study-claims-marriageable-men-shortage-only-exists-among-blacks-and-the-highly-educated/

Source from pew research center that shows black men make more than black women despite not having degrees

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/


Since you seem to be a feminist I highly doubt you care about the facts, research, statistics, or truth in general but just in case there it is.

Nah, that isn't what I take issue with. My issue is with the fact you think you know what men and women prefer in their partners. :u

Your issue is that you want to ignore all the evidence that shows that you are wrong. Women want men to provide and take care of them, you can look up thousands of studies that prove this fact is still true despite decades of feminism claims that women don't need no men.

The Admiral posted...

What's being ignored is the innate desire/need most men have to feel masculine, which doesn't go away just because millennials dislike the concept of gender roles. If a man is not defending his wife/family through either physical strength of providing for their necessities (hunter/gatherer instinct), he doesn't really have any role that makes him feel like a man.

We don't live in caves anymore. We do lots of things that go against our primal instincts. Monogamy for instance. Lots of our primal instincts are fading away with every generation. Vestigial structures.

I don't get why the alt-right are so obsessed with living like cave people did. :u I guess they can't find validation any other way.
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garan posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

De Evolution posted...

Sources on college educated black women not wanting to marry non-college educated black men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3247718/Study-reveals-harder-college-educated-females-black-women-spouses.html

http://madamenoire.com/588720/study-claims-marriageable-men-shortage-only-exists-among-blacks-and-the-highly-educated/

Source from pew research center that shows black men make more than black women despite not having degrees

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/


Since you seem to be a feminist I highly doubt you care about the facts, research, statistics, or truth in general but just in case there it is.

Nah, that isn't what I take issue with. My issue is with the fact you think you know what men and women prefer in their partners. :u

Your issue is that you want to ignore all the evidence that shows that you are wrong. Women want men to provide and take care of them, you can look up thousands of studies that prove this fact is still true despite decades of feminism claims that women don't need no men.

I thought the objectionable part was that he was saying it wasn't possible that these men who make less than their wives were having problems coping

don't we all agree that they do?
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Asherlee10 posted...

Axiom posted...

I've never understood guys that are insecure about the woman making more

Long history of societal norms probably contribute. Men have been the bread winners for many years. Also, people still give each other flack for not following norms like men should pay, men should earn more money, women should take care of kids, women should clean, etc.

While we want to move away from those traditional gender roles and expectations, there is always going to be resistance.

On another side of the coin (if there are multiple sides), it also can come down to control. I think this explains the case in my marriage (we are both women). My S.O. did not want to work (and honestly doesn't do emotionally well in a job anyway), but had a hard time letting go of the reigns of contributing to our income. She's still struggling with what she thinks she should do and what she wants to do.

tell your wife to get a job!
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

The Admiral posted...

What's being ignored is the innate desire/need most men have to feel masculine, which doesn't go away just because millennials dislike the concept of gender roles. If a man is not defending his wife/family through either physical strength of providing for their necessities (hunter/gatherer instinct), he doesn't really have any role that makes him feel like a man.

We don't live in caves anymore. We do lots of things that go against our primal instincts. Monogamy for instance. Lots of our primal instincts are fading away with every generation. Vestigial structures.

I don't get why the alt-right are so obsessed with living like cave people did. :u I guess they can't find validation any other way.

Ignoring your alt-right boogeyman, plenty of folks like to acknowledge reality as it is end not simply pretend reality is flawed because it doesn't match their political views. You can hate the concept of traditional masculinity all you want, you can make condescending comments about, and you can pretend you're faux enlightened for rejecting primitive instincts, but that does absolutely nothing to change reality.
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De Evolution posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

De Evolution posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

Couldn't it also be that men can't handle the idea of their wife making more than them? :u

No because men don't really care about what job or degree their girlfriend/wife has as long as she's attractive and likes him.

Women are the ones most hung up on jobs, degrees, and social status. A small percentage of men care but a majority of women care.

An example is the black community where many women complain about lack of college educated men. Despite the fact black men on average make more money than black women, it's not enough. The women need a degree for the social status and aren't interested in an electrician or plumber who makes 75k but never went to college.

Feminism at work.

source on any of this? :u or are you just shitposting?

Sources on college educated black women not wanting to marry non-college educated black men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3247718/Study-reveals-harder-college-educated-females-black-women-spouses.html

http://madamenoire.com/588720/study-claims-marriageable-men-shortage-only-exists-among-blacks-and-the-highly-educated/

Source from pew research center that shows black men make more than black women despite not having degrees

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/


Since you seem to be a feminist I highly doubt you care about the facts, research, statistics, or truth in general but just in case there it is.

got any REAL data and research, or is this the best we have to go off of?

bc this looks like biased "internet poll" bullshit to me.... you have any actual scientific articles from journals we have actually heard of?
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@De_Evolution

My man. *Claps*
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The Admiral posted...

Ignoring your alt-right boogeyman, plenty of folks like to acknowledge reality as it is end not simply pretend reality is flawed because it doesn't match their political views. You can hate the concept of traditional masculinity all you want, you can make condescending comments about, and you can pretend you're faux enlightened for rejecting primitive instincts, but that does absolutely nothing to change reality.

Nothing wrong with traditional masculinity. Just saying that it isn't for everyone. Honestly, I think it comes down to your personality. I mean there are women who have that same instinct to protect and provide for their families that you claim is only ingrained in men. It is just a part of their personality.

People are more than their ancestors. :v Our ancestors were who they were because of the society they were in. As society changes so do we. That's just how the world works. Masculine and feminine roles are constantly evolving. If there was one predefined way we wouldn't have so many cultural differences in regards to the genders.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

The Admiral posted...

Ignoring your alt-right boogeyman, plenty of folks like to acknowledge reality as it is end not simply pretend reality is flawed because it doesn't match their political views. You can hate the concept of traditional masculinity all you want, you can make condescending comments about, and you can pretend you're faux enlightened for rejecting primitive instincts, but that does absolutely nothing to change reality.

Nothing wrong with traditional masculinity. Just saying that it isn't for everyone. Honestly, I think it comes down to your personality. I mean there are women who have that same instinct to protect and provide for their families that you claim is only ingrained in men. It is just a part of their personality.

People are more than than ancestors. :v Our ancestors were who they were because of the society they were in. As society changes so do we. That's just how the world works. Masculine and feminine roles are constantly evolving. If there was one predefined way we wouldn't have so many cultural differences in regards to the genders.

I'm not claiming it's for everyone, I'm claiming it's a real thing for a lot of men. Enough so that those infidelity statistics are as skewed as they are.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Why? We both agreed to this scenario and are MUCH happier as a result. It's been going really well the last year doing it.

Yea, but she needs to think about retirement. :o She needs a 401k... or a roth IRA. I mean, do you want her to be eating cat food when she's older?

I'm only 24 but I'm already working on my retirement accounts. I want to live in a condo!
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who cares how much money you earn in this decayed and broken society. it in no way reflects your worth as a person, and in many cases can actually reflect a moral and/or spiritual bankruptcy to be well-off financially

'it's nobler to never get paid, than to bank on shit and dismay'

The Admiral posted...

What's being ignored is the innate desire/need most men have to feel masculine, which doesn't go away just because millennials dislike the concept of gender roles. If a man is not defending his wife/family through either physical strength of providing for their necessities (hunter/gatherer instinct), he doesn't really have any role that makes him feel like a man. The closest these men can apparently get to that feeling is through sexual promiscuity.

Not necessarily. In these relationships where the wife is unhappy being with a man who earns less than her, she may not be giving him sex and they may have an unhappy relationship.

Men want to feel masculine and women want to feel feminine. Her femininity is usually in the form of a man providing and protecting for her as well as taking care of the household. If she makes so much money her partner is no longer providing for her she no longer feels that masculine/feminine polarity, and will be less happy as the article and statistics show.

It's possible the man is driven to cheat because his wife no longer sees him as a worthy spouse whether that is conscious or subconscious. Though I can understand why a dead bedroom might make a men feel "less masculine".

Despite this new social narrative of gender equality, at the end of the day millions of years of evolution have profound differences in the way men and women think and feel due to hormones, behavior, mental differences, and simple biological programming. Yet somehow it's offensive to say men and women are different. Women are naturally attracted to men who are taller, physically stronger, make more money, and have more resources. Men want an attractive, younger woman for child bearing. Period. Now that feminism has pushed the notion that women need to be in the workplace and that men and women have no differences whatsoever, we're now seeing how patently false this is because women who have followed this script are reporting how they're not happy with their partner or how they can't find a partner in the first place.

And it's not because there literally aren't enough men out there. It's because with women earning more now, there aren't enough men with more resources/money/status than they already have from their job and women just naturally aren't attracted to men with equal or lesser resources. Women truly don't understand what they actually want.
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