Current Events > Why did people support the drug war?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Brb throwing some poor 20 year old in prison for 7 years because he had a few grams of crack.

Totally a great solution.
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Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.
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3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

UH OH
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Easy state sanctioned enactment of white supremacy

3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

Yeah pretty much.
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Mostly propaganda
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eston posted...

Mostly propaganda

This. People are easily brainwashed. Think about the dumbest person you know. 50% of the population is stupider than them.
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3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

^ This is...
eston posted...

Mostly propaganda

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I don't really know or care why any particular drug is illegal but what I don't understand is the mindset "this is illegal and if they catch me I could get fines, jail time or even prison but you know what it's a stupid rule."
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Drugs are bad m'kay.
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thanosibe posted...

3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

^ This is...
eston posted...

Mostly propaganda

So you explain it then.
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3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

This. Also, big pharma.
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The war makes the drug problem worse, making the war look more necessary, making the problems worse, making . . .

Racist propaganda, industry competition (cotton, pharma), now DEA and prison guard unions . . . it's overwhelming and ignorant fuckwits can't see through the bullshit.

Edit: I think it's an unintended consequence and ancillary affect but they're certainly capitalizing on taking voting rights away from felonious drug users and using them for cheap labor. Not that far off from slavery.
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Because muh values
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toptopmax posted...

Brb throwing some poor 20 year old in prison for 7 years because he had a few grams of crack.

Totally a great solution.

It's almost like it's their own fault for doing it. Even if the war on drugs is stupid, the answer is to try to make it legal, not by supporting organized crime (which doesn't care if kids get addicted).
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3rd_Best_Master posted...

thanosibe posted...

3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

^ This is...
eston posted...

Mostly propaganda

So you explain it then.

Whether or not the US justice system is actively out to incarcerate race X, and not actively incarcerate race Y, doesn't mean that race X didn't in a reasonable percentage of instances (like 99%) commit the crime they are being held accountable for. Your statement is usually used as propaganda for keeping the racial divide with only half truths. That race Y is not getting actively pursed for the same crimes they commit as race X is an issue if that is the case. But it pointing out that there are more of race X in jail for drug crimes than any other race, doesn't address the issue itself. It's a deflection from the fact that these people are indeed in jail for their crimes. A better angle would be to point that there are similar crimes committed by race Y, or A or B or whichever and yet they aren't paying for their crimes.

And I don't even think this is the point of the OP. I figured he's talking about unnecessarily long sentence for minor drug crimes, like a small time possession. I just noticed you wanted to swing it to race. But I can't exactly speak for the OP since he hasn't posted again yet.
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It's the misguided belief that denying opium to Chinese, marijuana to Mexicans, alcohol to Irish, etc., will magically turn them into productive Christian workers.
Or something like that.

It's basically: find a group whose general behavior you don't like for some reason, then ban something that group really likes. It's more along the lines of taking a child's favorite toy away until he eats his goddamn brussels sprouts, than it is overt racism.

thanosibe posted...

3rd_Best_Master posted...

thanosibe posted...

3rd_Best_Master posted...

Because it's an effective tool in disenfranchising minorities. Wage war on something non-whites indulge in more frequently than whites, and then use the resulting raise in arrest rates in order to justify just about anything you want.

^ This is...
eston posted...

Mostly propaganda

So you explain it then.

Whether or not the US justice system is actively out to incarcerate race X, and not actively incarcerate race Y, doesn't mean that race X didn't in a reasonable percentage of instances (like 99%) commit the crime they are being held accountable for. Your statement is usually used as propaganda for keeping the racial divide with only half truths. That race Y is not getting actively pursed for the same crimes they commit as race X is an issue if that is the case. But it pointing out that there are more of race X in jail for drug crimes than any other race, doesn't address the issue itself. It's a deflection from the fact that these people are indeed in jail for their crimes. A better angle would be to point that there are similar crimes committed by race Y, or A or B or whichever and yet they aren't paying for their crimes.

And I don't even think this is the point of the OP. I figured he's talking about unnecessarily long sentence for minor drug crimes, like a small time possession. I just noticed you wanted to swing it to race. But I can't exactly speak for the OP since he hasn't posted again yet.

The issue of whether or not group X or Y is committing a crime ignores the question of why. Why is a behavior committed by X deemed criminal? Why is a behavior committed by group Y deemed criminal? Your attempt to dismiss my post as mere propaganda exhibits the exact thing I posted.
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^It's deemed criminal because they're breaking the law. If one group does it more than the other it is irrelevant to the reason something is against the law in whatever country you reside. If you choose to use/sell illegal drugs for whatever reason, it is deemed criminal. Acting like because one group makes more bad choices than another group the law is bad and/or made to single out one group and should not be enforced is silly. It's like saying child sex laws disenfranchise pedophiles.

Now finding out why one group does make more bad choices in regards to specific laws, like using/selling illegal drugs is the more important cause to figure out. Trying to be preventative in keeping more people out of jail for criminal activity is far more productive than trying to twists people's bad choices into a social cause after the fact.
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DevsBro posted...

I don't really know or care why any particular drug is illegal but what I don't understand is the mindset "this is illegal and if they catch me I could get fines, jail time or even prison but you know what it's a stupid rule."

I get what you're saying, but I believe this attitude you're demonstrating is itself a product of propaganda.

Let's say the government banned drinks that have any sugar added tomorrow because they have a well-established connection to the increase in obesity we've seen, which also means the attendant health problems like heart disease, diabetes, etc. This is actually a much better argument than any of the ones for drug prohibition.

Are you going to tell me you wouldn't understand the mindset of someone who, the next day, decided to make and drink some koolaid? If the SWAT team busted in on them drinking it, would your reaction be this same kind of mental shrug?
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Now you're just arguing in circles. You'd have a point if those drug laws were always in place when our country was founded, but they weren't. They're relatively recent and the motives surrounding their adoption is well documented.
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Because people are fooled.

They think the war on drugs stops drug use and it makes politians look tough when they talk about it.

Meanwhile the entire criminal system benefits from it existing, so no one in power wants to stop it

Prisons want prisoners so they have 90%+ capacity
Prosecutors like getting results because it builds their resume
Cops like catching crooks because it builds their resume
The media loves news stories about drug busts and drug abuse because it makes them bank
And Politicans love it because it benefits their careers. "Unlike my opponent I am going to be hard on drugs!"

So nothing changes.


No one wants to face the elephant in the room that it costs a fortune, accomplishes nothing and makes life worse for everyone
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Because they haven't heard about the CIA and Nicaragua
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I love how pathetic the progressives are about this.

All of the flaws of the drug war and they have to yet again pretend it's racism and then pretend that's why it's bad

*sigh*
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UnfairRepresent posted...

I love how pathetic the progressives are about this.

All of the flaws of the drug war and they have to yet again pretend it's racism and then pretend that's why it's bad

*sigh*

race and racism is a serious problem with our criminal justice system

it is noticeable in all kinds of arenas, but drug use is one of the areas where blacks and whites mirror each other pretty closely so the disparity in incarceration and sentencing for drug crimes is something people find a harder time justifying

pretty sure no one thinks that's the only problem
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Balrog0 posted...

it is noticeable in all kinds of arenas, but drug use is one of the areas where blacks and whites mirror each other pretty closely so the disparity in incarceration and sentencing for drug crimes is something people find a harder time justifying

This is generally not true though

There is no evidence that people on equal footing for the same crime get different results.

People take stastics of repeat offends vs first offenders or dealers in the street vs people in their own homes and then make out they are the same.


Even "They made x illegal an black do x more therefore it's racism" is considered a valid argument.

Race really isn't an issue in the 100s of reasons why the war on drugs is bad. It's an excuse to pretend to be a victim.

If anything sex is the issue, there is strong evidence that men face harsher sentences than women even on equal footing and prisons want men, not women.

But that doesn't fit the progressive narrative so guys like 3rd best diaster won't ever mention it
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Gonna leave this here
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/etc/cron.html
http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2016/03/top-adviser-richard-nixon-admitted-war-drugs-was-policy-tool-go-after-anti-war-proteste

UnfairRepresent posted...

This is generally not true though

There is no evidence that people on equal footing for the same crime get different results.

People take stastics of repeat offends vs first offenders or dealers in the street vs people in their own homes and then make out they are the same.

I don't think you're studied this issue very carefully if you really think this is the case, hombre.
It is true that some of the things you mentioned can be an issue for some crimes.

But people incarcerated for drug use (rather than distribution) aren't dealers in the street, so you've already conflated two different charges in order to make your argument seem stronger. But even then, there's little evidence that blacks and whites sell drugs at different rates - it IS true that blacks are more likely to sell to people they don't know and to people on the street. But that seems like a curious defense of the laws not being racist - you're saying it's okay for there to be a racial disparity because one kind of criminal is less good at it?

There are substantial racial disparities even when you control for repeat offenders and so on as well: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.1998.tb01256.x/abstract

This article explores the effect of race in the decision to prosecute and sentence eligible defendants as “habitual” offenders. During FY 1992–93, 9,690 males admitted to prison in Florida were statutorily eligible (two prior felony convictions or one prior violent felony conviction) for sentencing as “habitual” offenders. Approximately 20% received that disposition. They will serve at least 75% of their enhanced sentence as compared with the state average of about 40%. Logistic regression, controlling for prior record, crime seriousness, and other relevant factors, shows a significant and substantial race effect. The disadvantage of black defendants is particularly strong for drug offenses and for property crimes that have relatively high victimization rates for whites (larceny, burglary). Race is less consequential for violent and weapons-related crimes. Race effects are more often significant in sentencing contexts that are low in terms of percent black, racial income inequality, drug arrest rates, and violent crime rates. The relevance of these findings for a “racial threat” interpretation of sentencing outcomes is discussed.

there's also evidence of discrimination in sentencing:

http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2497&context=articles


UnfairRepresent posted...

Even "They made x illegal an black do x more therefore it's racism" is considered a valid argument.

No, the argument is based on the actual history of drug laws. THey made x illegal because they thought black people did x more. It's only not a valid argument if you think history doesn't matter...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Race really isn't an issue in the 100s of reasons why the war on drugs is bad. It's an excuse to pretend to be a victim.

Racial discrimination is particularly bad for black people in drug sentencing and arrests. This is pretty common knowledge. Just because the topline number progressives want to quote is hyperbolic doesn't mean the effect is imaginary.

UnfairRepresent posted...

If anything sex is the issue, there is strong evidence that men face harsher sentences than women even on equal footing and prisons want men, not women.

yes, I fully agree that our criminal justice system is sexist against men.
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3rd_Best_Master posted...

Now you're just arguing in circles. You'd have a point if those drug laws were always in place when our country was founded, but they weren't. They're relatively recent and the motives surrounding their adoption is well documented.

Maybe circles around you. If that were the case every law would be under scrutiny because it singles out the people that break that law. Teenage boys speed more than any other group. So as not to disenfranchise them we have to either cut them slack or up the speed limit. I mean, you know, actually obeying the law would be too simple. An excuse is an excuse. If you don't want to be in jail don't break the law. If you don't like or think a law is unfair then contact your politicians. You are the ones (if you vote) that voted them in to represent you. If they are not representing you well, breaking the law because "it's just a silly 50 year old law" is not a good choice.
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I mean most people on CE are pretty much against the war on drugs, even the Republican ones.
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Balrog0 posted...

But people incarcerated for drug use (rather than distribution) aren't dealers in the street, so you've already conflated two different charges in order to make your argument seem stronger. But even then, there's little evidence that blacks and whites sell drugs at different rates - it IS true that blacks are more likely to sell to people they don't know and to people on the street. But that seems like a curious defense of the laws not being racist - you're saying it's okay for there to be a racial disparity because one kind of criminal is less good at it?

It's bad to have a racial disparity for the SAME thing.

Its insane to say "Well this was worse than that but the guy doing it is black so he should get a minor ruling" is racism.

If in the next decade Chinese people murder more than anyone else, that doesn't mean we should randomly give life sentences to Hispanic dudes who commited manslaughter. There is no logic there. Just progressive nonsense

And you missed the point. It's not just dealers. The stats people are conflating as you point out mix strangers doing/buying drugs in the streets with friends doing it in their homes. That's not the same crime.

Balrog0 posted...

No, the argument is based on the actual history of drug laws. THey made x illegal because they thought black people did x more. It's only not a valid argument if you think history doesn't matter...

According to John Ehrlichman while trying to promote a book.

Balrog0 posted...

Racial discrimination is particularly bad for black people in drug sentencing and arrests. This is pretty common knowledge.

"this is common knowledge" and "We all know" is progressive code for "We actually have no evidence but I want to this to make me a victim and fit my agenda."

You know this one's real Ethan

Balrog0 posted...

yes, I fully agree that our criminal justice system is sexist against men.

Grand, but the people turning the drug war into a race war on fault premises ignore this.
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Right wingers and bible thumpers don't think things through.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

And you missed the point. It's not just dealers. The stats people are conflating as you point out mix strangers doing/buying drugs in the streets with friends doing it in their homes. That's not the same crime.

The only difference is that one is harder to see. I mean, there might be other additional charges for selling on the street, but the charge of drug distribution isn't different dependning on where you sell it (except in some places like school zones maybe)

UnfairRepresent posted...

"this is common knowledge" and "We all know" is progressive code for "We actually have no evidence but I want to this to make me a victim and fit my agenda."

You know this one's real Ethan

I gave you the material to look at for yourself, go ahead and peruse the literature that I linked to in this very topic. I even quoted the part where it tells you they control for the confounding variables you're saying make the comparisons bad in both cases. Just give it a look.
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