Board 8 > Will Harden be the least deserving MVP in basketball history?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also stats be damned, the real shame about this MVP race is how understated both Kawhi Leonard and Isaiah Thomas are because of it. It might be that I only ever see Kawhi in his good games but every time I do watch him he looks ridiculous.

ShatteredElysium posted...

Also stats be damned, the real shame about this MVP race is how understated both Kawhi Leonard and Isaiah Thomas are because of it. It might be that I only ever see Kawhi in his good games but every time I do watch him he looks ridiculous.

I do think Kawhi has the only legit argument other than Harden.

A Great Wing is more valuable than a Great Guard because they are the single most impactful piece on the board even if his stats arent as amazing.
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I really need to watch Harden play. The guy looks like a homeless fat uncle who plays pickup games at the park. It's weird to me that someone who looks like that can average such god-tier stats.
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Kawhi is the best 2-way player in the league aside from LeBron when he's trying
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I really need to watch Harden play. The guy looks like a homeless fat uncle who plays pickup games at the park. It's weird to me that someone who looks like that can average such god-tier stats.

He only plays on one half of the court, that makes it significantly easier to get those numbers, since for all intents and purposes, he only plays 24 minutes out of 48 he's on the court.
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Are there any defensive metrics someone can post to dispel his notion that Harden is a liability this season?
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Harden has improved a lot from his "I don't give a f***" season a couple of years ago. the perception hasn't gone away though.

of course he's not going to be near Leonard's level. but nor is Westbrook.
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Synergy sports apparently does a points per possession when targeted stat along with the FG% against that player but I don't have a subscription for it.

Here's what I can find

Harden defensive rating - 107.1 (Career worst)
Opp points in paint - 37.5
Opp second chance points - 10
Opp fast break points - 11

The site makes it a pain to filter to get comparables (I can't filter the list by minutes played) so here's some comparisons

Westbrook
Def rating - 104.6
Opp points in paint - 34.4
Opp second chance points - 9.0
Opp fast break points - 8.1

Kawhi
Def rating - 103.7
Opp points in paint - 28.5
Opp second chance points - 8.5
Opp fast break points - 9.0

Draymond
Def rating - 98.9
Opp points in paint - 29.2
Opp second chance points - 9.6
Opp fast break points - 8.6

Sam Dekker (next highest mins per game on Rockets after Harden)
Def rating - 108.2
Opp points in paint - 32
Opp second chance points - 7
Opp fast break points - 10

Also I don't really trust defensive rating that much. The Spurs have a significantly better defensive rating with Kawhi on the bench than on the floor. Apparently because he's 'too good' at shutdown defense so team just completely ignore his man.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/

Oh also found that opponents shoot 47.1% when Harden is on the court, 35.4% from 3.

I'm not reading the topic has MWC figured out that Westbrook's "vastly inferior" supporting cast is why his stats are crazy yet
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JetJaguar posted...

I'm not reading the topic has MWC figured out that Westbrook's "vastly inferior" supporting cast is why his stats are crazy yet

His team sucks, and therefore he has to do everything.
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transcience posted...

how are Westbrook's numbers better than Harden's here? Harden ahead slightly in assists and shooting, Westbrook slightly ahead in points and rebounds. the only thing that really makes Westbrook stand out is the triple double.

Westbrook is ahead by 2.5 points and 2.6 rebounds and Harden is up by 0.9 assists, so it seems more significant. I think Westbrook's FG% suffers from taking more shots (24pg to 19pg for Harden). When you consider Harden's defense (or lack thereof) and superior supporting cast, I give Westbrook a slight edge here.

That said the real MVP is ISAIAH THOMAS
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MZero11 posted...

transcience posted...

how are Westbrook's numbers better than Harden's here? Harden ahead slightly in assists and shooting, Westbrook slightly ahead in points and rebounds. the only thing that really makes Westbrook stand out is the triple double.

Westbrook is ahead by 2.5 points and 2.6 rebounds and Harden is up by 0.9 assists, so it seems more significant. I think Westbrook's FG% suffers from taking more shots (24pg to 19pg for Harden). When you consider Harden's defense (or lack thereof) and superior supporting cast, I give Westbrook a slight edge here.

That said the real MVP is ISAIAH THOMAS

Thomas didn't do enough at the start of the year to get the media he needed. But Isaiah should start winning them en masse starting now.
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King IT4 is a good top five pick but
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Harden is CRUSHING the record for most turnovers ever, and is on a team that has made the most 3's ever.

If you put Westbrook on that team, they are ahead of the Spurs.
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EmDubyaSee posted...

Harden is CRUSHING the record for most turnovers ever, and is on a team that has made the most 3's ever.

If you put Westbrook on that team, they are ahead of the Spurs.

xfd
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Isaiah Thomas is certainly in the same conversation as Harden in terms of the amount of defense they play
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wait I just read that one stat SE just posted

MWC is trying to argue that Harden's cast is way better when Sam Dekker has the second most minutes on the team?
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LeonhartFour posted...

Isaiah Thomas is certainly in the same conversation as Harden in terms of the amount of defense they play

yeah but Harden isn't like 5'2
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LeonhartFour posted...

wait I just read that one stat SE just posted

MWC is trying to argue that Harden's cast is way better when Sam Dekker has the second most minutes on the team?

Care to compare the the Rockets 2-8 to the Thunder 2-8?

The Thunder 2-8 might be the worst of a non 76ers team since the Mid 2000's Lakers.
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it's weird. everyone was calling Steven Adams the best young center in the league after the playoffs last year. Oladipo was an impact player coming to them. Kanter was a nice impact big off the bench.

Houston's team is kind of comparable. their guards can play (well, shoot thanks to Harden creating so many shots) but their best big is like, Ryan Anderson?
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Capela
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Yeah, OKC's supporting cast isn't bad...until you want to argue Westbrook deserves MVP because his team isn't as good as Harden's.
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Minus Westbrook they don't suddenly become the Nets. It's a mediocre supporting cast to be sure, and Westbrook winning the MVP wouldn't bother me. But this feels like Miguel Cabrera vs Mike Trout all over again. Archaic stats vs advanced ones.
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They don't become the Nets but they are certainly down there. I'm a Magic fan and looking at that OKC team, they are not better than us minus Westbrook and we are a 27-49 team right now (That's the 4th worst record in the league).

Granted there's an element of tanking going on so we might be marginally better than that but I'm sure it's the same for all the teams down there.