Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 76: Personal Attack Free Edition 2.0

(+) Yeah! (+)

Less demand, lower prices. That is generally how it goes. Obamacare is proof that Democrats have now bought Reagan's supply side economics 100%. They won't even look at the demand side of things anymore.
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red sox 777 posted...

Less demand, lower prices. That is generally how it goes. Obamacare is proof that Democrats have now bought Reagan's supply side economics 100%. They won't even look at the demand side of things anymore.

History says that this in regards to health insurance is 100% wrong.
Not to mention the increase in real costs due to uninsured medical expenses and hospital visits. Unpaid emergency service bills is where costs can get really out of hand.

The fundamental problem is that healthcare and insurance are equated. Insurance is and should be mostly about protecting assets. If you have a mansion, you bet you'll pay more to protect it than if you have a hovel. If you drive a Ferrari you'll pay more for insurance than a Toyota.

But in America, people use health "insurance" to pay for lots of things that insurance is just a bad way of paying for.
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Leafeon13N posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Less demand, lower prices. That is generally how it goes. Obamacare is proof that Democrats have now bought Reagan's supply side economics 100%. They won't even look at the demand side of things anymore.

History says that this in regards to health insurance is 100% wrong.
Not to mention the increase in real costs due to uninsured medical expenses and hospital visits. Unpaid emergency service bills is where costs can get really out of hand.

What history?
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And yeah, the purported high cost of uninsured medical expenses is a tremendous scam perpetrated by the insurance industry.
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red sox 777 posted...

The fundamental problem is that healthcare and insurance are equated. Insurance is and should be mostly about protecting assets. If you have a mansion, you bet you'll pay more to protect it than if you have a hovel. If you drive a Ferrari you'll pay more for insurance than a Toyota.

But in America, people use health "insurance" to pay for lots of things that insurance is just a bad way of paying for.

Then you cant be for this bill because it is less effective obamare with no future legislation in sight. This bill will drive medical costs of the uninsured and likely never paid much higher. Which will force those who can pay to pay more.

And the big thing with obsmacare was preventative care. The lack of preventative care is going to have long term negative effects on health care costs.

Leafeon13N posted...

red sox 777 posted...

The fundamental problem is that healthcare and insurance are equated. Insurance is and should be mostly about protecting assets. If you have a mansion, you bet you'll pay more to protect it than if you have a hovel. If you drive a Ferrari you'll pay more for insurance than a Toyota.

But in America, people use health "insurance" to pay for lots of things that insurance is just a bad way of paying for.

Then you cant be for this bill because it is less effective obamare with no future legislation in sight. This bill will drive medical costs of the uninsured and likely never paid much higher. Which will force those who can pay to pay more.

And the big thing with obsmacare was preventative care. The lack of preventative care is going to have long term negative effects on health care costs.

I don't see this bill as providing a structural solution. In the short run though, I prefer to shift the costs onto the affluent upper middle class rather than the working class, which this bill does as long as those refundable tax credits are for real.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Mershaaay posted...

I have to say one thing about the GOP Healthcare Bill--at least people are f***ing discussing it.

And every time they do they have to say "World's Greatest Health Care Bill"

http://www.snopes.com/is-the-gops-obamacare-replacement-titled-worlds-greatest-healthcare-plan-of-2017/
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http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/us-drone-strikes-have-gone-up-432-since-trump-took-office

“During President Obama’s two terms in office, he approved 542 [drone] strikes in 2,920 days—one every 5.4 days. From his inauguration through today, President Trump had approved at least 36 drone strikes or raids in 45 days—one every 1.25 days.”

That’s an increase of 432 percent.
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And the meme of Hillary being a warmonger compared to Trump continues to deteriorate in the face of reality.
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Would like to point out nearly every prominent B8 conservative has posted since it was brought up, and not one of them has even slightly acknowledged Trump's Saudi Arabia weapons deal.
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"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy!......And we shall have peace."
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The only person in politics to compare themselves to a Sith recently was a hard right Republican <_<;
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BowserCuffs posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Mershaaay posted...

I have to say one thing about the GOP Healthcare Bill--at least people are f***ing discussing it.

And every time they do they have to say "World's Greatest Health Care Bill"

http://www.snopes.com/is-the-gops-obamacare-replacement-titled-worlds-greatest-healthcare-plan-of-2017/

I was swept up in the fun. I was wrong. I apologize!
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red sox 777 posted...

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy!......And we shall have peace."

Are you a sociopath, a fascist, secretly part of the top 0.1%, or just failing to realize what that quote means by "peace"?

red sox 777 posted...

Less demand, lower prices. That is generally how it goes. Obamacare is proof that Democrats have now bought Reagan's supply side economics 100%. They won't even look at the demand side of things anymore.

That's not how health care works, and I refuse to believe you are too stupid to understand that.red sox 777 posted...

And yeah, the purported high cost of uninsured medical expenses is a tremendous scam perpetrated by the insurance industry.

...Never mind.

also the subsidies are literally 2k for youths and 4k for the elderly. If you think that's enough, you're hilarious.
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Jakyl25 posted...

I was swept up in the fun. I was wrong. I apologize!

Nah, I made the same mistake until I realized, "Oh, I should probably check Snopes".
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dowolf posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Less demand, lower prices. That is generally how it goes. Obamacare is proof that Democrats have now bought Reagan's supply side economics 100%. They won't even look at the demand side of things anymore.

That's not how health care works, and I refuse to believe you are too stupid to understand that.red sox 777 posted...

And yeah, the purported high cost of uninsured medical expenses is a tremendous scam perpetrated by the insurance industry.

...Never mind.

also the subsidies are literally 2k for youths and 4k for the elderly. If you think that's enough, you're hilarious.

2k is 2k more than the 0 most people receive under Obamacare.
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Regaro posted...

red sox 777 posted...

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy!......And we shall have peace."

Are you a sociopath, a fascist, secretly part of the top 0.1%, or just failing to realize what that quote means by "peace"?

From my point of view the jedi are evil?
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http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2017/march/08/trump-invades-syria/

This is pretty major if true

Vlado wouldn't like this!
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red sox 777 posted...

2k is 2k more than the 0 most people receive under Obamacare.

UNDER THE ACA, EVERYONE WHO MAKES UP TO 400% OF THE POVERTY LEVEL RECEIVES AID.

EVERYONE.

(sorry for shouting, but I am sick of the lies and misinformation)

The average enrollee received $300/mo, or almost $5k/yr, far more than what the Republicans are proposing! (source: https://www.cms.gov/Newsroom/MediaReleaseDatabase/Fact-sheets/2016-Fact-sheets-items/2016-06-30.html?DLPage=1&DLEntries=10&DLSort=0&DLSortDir=descending ) Those with more dire financial conditions, of course, received more. None of this flat tax credit BS. And that number is expected to increase for 2017 (data for that isn't available yet), because the system scales with the cost of insurance.
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http://www.wesplain.com/privilege/white-people-its-time-to-pay-for-privilege-the-equality-tax/

Something for Ulti to salivate over.
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red sox 777 posted...

And yeah, the purported high cost of uninsured medical expenses is a tremendous scam perpetrated by the insurance industry.

Haha. Eat s***. I could very well be dead without free health insurance right now.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

http://www.wesplain.com/privilege/white-people-its-time-to-pay-for-privilege-the-equality-tax/

Something for Ulti to salivate over.

That's the stupidest thing I've seen and I'm having a hard time believing that this isn't, in some way, satire.

If it isn't satire then I'm adding "wesplain" to my list of websites that are utter trash.

Actually, I'm gonna do it anyways.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Would like to point out nearly every prominent B8 conservative has posted since it was brought up, and not one of them has even slightly acknowledged Trump's Saudi Arabia weapons deal.

None of them will acknowledge the drone strike numbers either.
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health care is one of those tricky things i really cannot comment on without making a fool of myself


scarletspeed7 posted...

http://www.wesplain.com/privilege/white-people-its-time-to-pay-for-privilege-the-equality-tax/

Something for Ulti to salivate over.

lol, good1
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Health care is a tricky thing to talk about, which is why it needs to be handled with care, and why the flagrantly extremist, false, and ignorant statements that red sox makes are both offensive and - when you consider how many people in the country share the same viewpoint - harmful.
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What I'm wondering is how likely this thing gets passed.
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Do you guys even comprehend my posts? Why are uninsured medical expenses so high? Because the system is a scam. Run by the insurance companies. Who want to force people to buy their insurance.

If the scam was gone, the expenses would be lower.

KP, your anecdote is completely irrelevant to my post, and you'd do well to refrain from personal attacks, especially when you evidently haven't paused to make sure you understood my post before responding.
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TheRock1525 posted...

What I'm wondering is how likely this thing gets passed.

Well, it's going to have zero Democratic support in any form and apparently the farthest-right Repubbies aren't happy with it as it stands. So at present I'd say not terribly likely, but if it shifts a little further to the "f*** the poor" side the GOP might be able to pull in enough of the far right to get it through.
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red sox 777 posted...

Do you guys even comprehend my posts? Why are uninsured medical expenses so high? Because the system is a scam. Run by the insurance companies. Who want to force people to buy their insurance.

If the scam was gone, the expenses would be lower.

So, single payer.
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even ignoring freak accidents, if:

- you're a female in your 20s and 30s
- you're a male in a high risk field
- you're a male involved in contact sports
- you run a family risk of heart disease and are over 40
- you're just plain over 50.

insurance is worth the cost because the expenses you run a very real chance of there are going to be astronomical. you're gonna fly through your deductible with ease.

i mean yes, for a healthy 20 year old male, demands of health insurance are often a case of "what do i need this for?" and they'll usually be okay. freak accidents happen but for the most part, you'll be good to go. but the costs you're gonna see when you need it aren't inflated. most insurance will cover RX pretty well and if you've seen some of what drugs cost you'll never say the price is exaggerated or whatever. it's understated just how expensive things can get. now maybe big pharma has a role to be settled on for RX but that's another issue entirely.
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dowolf posted...

red sox 777 posted...

2k is 2k more than the 0 most people receive under Obamacare.

UNDER THE ACA, EVERYONE WHO MAKES UP TO 400% OF THE POVERTY LEVEL RECEIVES AID.

EVERYONE.

(sorry for shouting, but I am sick of the lies and misinformation)

The average enrollee received $300/mo, or almost $5k/yr, far more than what the Republicans are proposing! (source: https://www.cms.gov/Newsroom/MediaReleaseDatabase/Fact-sheets/2016-Fact-sheets-items/2016-06-30.html?DLPage=1&DLEntries=10&DLSort=0&DLSortDir=descending ) Those with more dire financial conditions, of course, received more. None of this flat tax credit BS. And that number is expected to increase for 2017 (data for that isn't available yet), because the system scales with the cost of insurance.

That's simply not true in California at least. The cutoff to receive any aid at all was at around 31k a year when I checked this year, and you wouldn't get close to $300 a month until you got close to the level where you would qualify for Medi-Cal, CA's free health insurance system.

I mean it also depends on family size and age, but the fact is, a lot of non-rich people will be getting a lot more from the proposed tax credits than under Obamacare.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Do you guys even comprehend my posts? Why are uninsured medical expenses so high? Because the system is a scam. Run by the insurance companies. Who want to force people to buy their insurance.

If the scam was gone, the expenses would be lower.

So, single payer.

Yes, and other countries with single payer spend......way less of national gdp on healthcare! Just as expected.
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red sox 777 posted...

Do you guys even comprehend my posts? Why are uninsured medical expenses so high? Because the system is a scam. Run by the insurance companies. Who want to force people to buy their insurance.

If the scam was gone, the expenses would be lower.

Glad to see that we agree health insurance is a bulls*** concept, especially when a profit motive gets introduced.

It doesn't matter if it's a scam. It's irrelevant. The reality of the situation and it's what people have to deal with. And it's not going to end anytime soon, especially with the GOP in charge.

I comprehend your posts just fine. You're no different from basically any of the other GOP members who don't have an actual grounding in reality and want to change things to suit your whims without considering how it will actually effect people. You want to tear down a system without instituting a new way of helping people that can't afford exorbitant medical prices, and news flash, the new GOP plan being put forward is awful and will not solve any of the problems I just mentioned.

And for the record, if there's a scam, it's the fault of the medical companies for jacking up the prices of medicine and procedures to a level that is far higher than it needs to be. You want to solve insurance issues - start there.
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You presume a whole lot about what I want. Nothing I posted was false, ignorant or offensive, and none of it was insensitive to you, if you understood it correctly.
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red sox 777 posted...

Yes, and other countries with single payer spend......way less of national gdp on healthcare! Just as expected.

*facepalm*

i give up with you. You live in a la-la land where correlation and causation are one in the same; where all evidence contrary to your views can be dismissed as conspiracy theories; and the effort it would take to drag you back to reality, kicking and screaming, is simply not worth it.

The simple fact of the matter is, we're not getting a single-payer system. I would love one, but it's not happening under this Congress. The fight we have to fight is between Trumpcare and Obamacare, and that battle has a clear right side.
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We're not getting single payer? Make those refundable tax credits big enough, and that is single payer, precisely. It's single payer dressed up in a way to avoid calling it that so people don't think healthcare has been socialized, and so health insurance companies don't go out of business.

Again, I'm not sure how generous the final package will be, but the structure is quite capable of backdooring us into single payer, funded by income taxes. Or, more likely, by government borrowing that will be repaid by the next generation's income taxes.
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Er, from the point of view of distribution of costs it would be single payer. From the point of view of getting rid of the insurance companies' cut, it wouldn't. But I'm not that concerned about the insurers gorging off the taxes paid by the rich and upper middle class.
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red sox 777 posted...

Er, from the point of view of distribution of costs it would be single payer. From the point of view of getting rid of the insurance companies' cut, it wouldn't. But I'm not that concerned about the insurers gorging off the taxes paid by the rich and upper middle class.

What part of GOP fiscal policy has you convinced that the taxes going to insurance companies will be paid entirely (or even mostly) by the upper and upper middle classes?
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6f0TEGWAAEpAer.jpg

Not_an_Owl posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Er, from the point of view of distribution of costs it would be single payer. From the point of view of getting rid of the insurance companies' cut, it wouldn't. But I'm not that concerned about the insurers gorging off the taxes paid by the rich and upper middle class.

What part of GOP fiscal policy has you convinced that the taxes going to insurance companies will be paid entirely (or even mostly) by the upper and upper middle classes?

The current tax brackets? Trump's proposed new tax brackets? The proposed refundable tax credits?

The GOP will protect the 1% to the extent they can (the 1% will always pay a lot of tax just from making so much money) but they will happily throw the next 20% under the bus.
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Skyridge87 posted...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6f0TEGWAAEpAer.jpg

Awesome.
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So I don't see why Democrats don't jump in here, and propose bigger refundable tax credits. Call for $3000 instead of $2000. You don't actually need the votes from all the Republicans to pass a bill, if you have some Democrats. And this was Republicans' idea to start, so no one can accuse those Republicans of supporting Democrats.
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red sox 777 posted...

So I don't see why Democrats don't jump in here, and propose bigger refundable tax credits. Call for $3000 instead of $2000. You don't actually need the votes from all the Republicans to pass a bill, if you have some Democrats. And this was Republicans' idea to start, so no one can accuse those Republicans of supporting Democrats.

But people CAN accuse the Democrats of supporting Republicans and basically rolling over for them AGAIN. The Democrats tried compromising throughout Obama's term and it got them nothing, because the Republicans refused any compromise. All it did was make the Democrat base feel like nothing was getting done for THEM. The Democrats can't afford to let the Republicans gain any more unchecked power, especially given how much damage they seem intent on imposing onto America.
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Yeah, there's no incentive for Democrats to play nicely, especially since the Republican strategy worked so well for Republicans. I want to say it's so bad right now that it would take a third party taking over and forcing the two to play nice.
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But vis thats stupid.





That only works literally if you think there is no way that the two factions of Republican can reconcile their differences.

If i was the Democrats id put out a tax credit version of Obamacare versus the mandatr but with all of the protections in place and the zsubsidies done by income insteas of age and just say "heres our plan - there is yours, lets make a deal." Appeal to thr showman in Trump
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Republicans really do a much better job of playing the game than Democrats do, their PR game and ability to use and integrate buzz words into general knowledge is something Democrats really fail to emulate. Trump is probably 1000 times better at this but they've actually begun adopting some of his methods of speaking so far.

Obamacare is actually a prime example, they've thrown so many negative connotations around it that some people on obamacare dont even realize their insurance is through obamacare

I mean Obamacare is at its most popular right now.
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