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Board 8 > Why does everyone act like they have enough info to judge this T Martin thing?

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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 11:04:00 AM
#1:


Serious question because I haven't been following the story that closely. I got the impression that there are conflicting reports and we will never know what happened. So why is everyone standing on the high ground, villainizing Zimmerman and treating this case like it's so black and white (no pun)?

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StealThisSheen
03/30/12 11:06:00 AM
#2:


Because there's not really much excuse to shoot somebody who is unarmed.



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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 11:07:00 AM
#3:


If he was attacked then that's an excuse.

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RX7InfinitiIII
03/30/12 11:07:00 AM
#4:


It's been politicized to the point where facts are no longer important.


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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:07:00 AM
#5:


The issue is that people think it should go to trial and he can defend himself there. We know he killed Martin, his defense should take place in a court room.

But he hasn't been arrested.

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WarThaNemesis2
03/30/12 11:08:00 AM
#6:


Given that he also claimed the kid was armed there's a very good chance he's lying about other things.

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Westbrick
03/30/12 11:09:00 AM
#7:


The issue is that people think it should go to trial and he can defend himself there. We know he killed Martin, his defense should take place in a court room.

But he hasn't been arrested.

This. It's not so much that people are judging him guilty, but rather judging the police for not arresting a man who shot an unarmed black kid.

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Liquid Wind
03/30/12 11:09:00 AM
#8:


StealThisSheen posted...
Because there's not really much excuse to shoot somebody who is unarmed.

this. it's also known that zimmerman approached him after being told not to, he initiated that situation.

Leebo86 posted...
The issue is that people think it should go to trial and he can defend himself there. We know he killed Martin, his defense should take place in a court room.

But he hasn't been arrested.

and this. if it can be proven in court that he wasn't in the wrong, so be it, but the way the police department handled it was disgraceful, someone should lose their job over this.
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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 11:09:00 AM
#9:


Leebo86 posted...
The issue is that people think it should go to trial and he can defend himself there.

That's fair. Still most people assume he's definitely guilty, and a lot will bring race into it for no real reason.

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StealThisSheen
03/30/12 11:10:00 AM
#10:


Theon_Greyjoy posted...
If he was attacked then that's an excuse.


What we know so far:

He approached the kid despite being told not to.
The kid was unarmed.
He said he was.

It's not really looking good.



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StealThisSheen
03/30/12 11:11:00 AM
#11:


Note: I'm not saying he's guilty

But I'm saying he damn sure should have been arrested and this should go to court.



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Liquid Wind
03/30/12 11:11:00 AM
#12:


He approached the kid despite being told not to.
The kid was unarmed.
He said he was.

It's not really looking good.

didn't he also try to say that the kid went for his gun? that means he had it out, which means he was threatening him with it
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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:11:00 AM
#13:


There are enough discrepancies between his story and witness stories that it's fair to question his account of it.

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McBonesII
03/30/12 11:12:00 AM
#14:


People bring race into it because over the 911 call Zimmerman made about a suspicious figure, he mutters something under his breath that sort of allegedly is a racial slur. I haven't listened to it so I don't know for myself, but that's a part of the race issue

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Grand Kirby
03/30/12 11:13:00 AM
#15:


Can't say it's completely open and shut, and I suppose there's a slight possibility that Zimmerman could be in the right, but the whole thing is so unbelievably shaky from his point of view, and the actions of the police. It's like, if it turns out he's really justified, then he seems to have gone out of his way to make things look as suspicious and dodgy as possible for himself.

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Aecioo
03/30/12 11:14:00 AM
#16:


Martin threw deadly skittles at him before using his hoodies evil powers to surround Zimmerman in a sphere of death.


it was self defense

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:16:00 AM
#17:


And people are getting impatient, but it won't take longer than April 10th to get an answer on whether he'll be charged or not.

That's the date that has been set for the grand jury to hear the evidence, so that will be the end of the story if they don't indict him, or the beginning as the process leading to trial starts.

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Hrezs
03/30/12 11:16:00 AM
#18:


When do people NOT act that way over any sensationalized court case

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mnkboy907
03/30/12 11:17:00 AM
#19:


From: StealThisSheen | #010
What we know so far:

He approached the kid despite being told not to.
The kid was unarmed.
He said he was.

It's not really looking good.


Plus you can hear Treyvon shouting for help in the background of another 911 call.

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:18:00 AM
#20:


There's no way to know who was yelling help, and if they were fighting (after either one started it) it's possible they both yelled for help at some point during the fight.

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StealThisSheen
03/30/12 11:18:00 AM
#21:


Holy crap, I hadn't heard either of those yet.

So the guy not only had his gun out already when approaching him, but you can hear Martin calling for help in a 911 call?

Well then.



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VincentLauw
03/30/12 11:20:00 AM
#22:


Aecioo posted...
Martin threw deadly skittles at him before using his hoodies evil powers to surround Zimmerman in a sphere of death.


it was self defense

^

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:20:00 AM
#23:


The major discrepancies have to do with how badly Zimmerman says he was injured and where the fight took place.

he has at some point said

-he was beaten to the point that he almost lost consciousness by Martin
-he was on concrete with his head being slammed down into it
-Martin followed him back to his vehicle

But these have been refuted or partially refuted by witnesses or other evidence.

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mnkboy907
03/30/12 11:23:00 AM
#24:


From: Leebo86 | #020
There's no way to know who was yelling help, and if they were fighting (after either one started it) it's possible they both yelled for help at some point during the fight.


Well I guess. I just know when they aired the recording on the news, they said it was Treyvon. But yeah, that alone doesn't necessarily prove anything.

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:24:00 AM
#25:


I think the Martin family said they "know" it's Trayvon's voice, but none of them are audio experts >_>

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KingButz
03/30/12 11:34:00 AM
#26:


There has not been enough evidence released to say what really happened.

There is evidence according to the police that there was a struggle. It is unknown who initiated the struggle. The police said that Zimmerman's back was wet as if he was lying in the grass.

The character of both people is in question. Martin had been suspended for school multiple times, and Zimmerman was once charged with assault(although the charges were dropped). There are numerous witnesses of character who claim that Zimmerman is not racist.

Zimmerman's family alleges he was treated at the hospital for injuries from the fight (including a broken nose), so if that is true hospital records should prove it. A poor-quality video from the police station does not show any apparent injuries but the body language of an officer suggest there might have been a head injury.

As for the justification for shooting, Zimmerman would be justified if he was being beat to death (from physical descriptions Martin was taller and may have been bigger than Zimmerman) or if Martin attempted to take his gun.

I'm waiting for the trial and the evidence to come out, but I think that anyone who has said one way or the other who isn't personally involved is a fool.

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:37:00 AM
#27:


From: KingButz | #026
the body language of an officer suggest there might have been a head injury.


if there's a serious head injury, he needs to be taken to the hospital before the police station, and we know that didn't happen

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foolm0ron
03/30/12 11:38:00 AM
#28:


racism

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:38:00 AM
#29:


From: KingButz | #026
The character of both people is in question. Martin had been suspended for school multiple times, and Zimmerman was once charged with assault(although the charges were dropped). There are numerous witnesses of character who claim that Zimmerman is not racist.


And this stuff has nothing to do with anything, I can't imagine any of it making it into court

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DeepsPraw
03/30/12 11:40:00 AM
#30:


Leebo86 posted...
And this stuff has nothing to do with anything, I can't imagine any of it making it into court

Really? Have you never heard of a character witness/character evidence?

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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:41:00 AM
#31:


Well, the character evidence stuff is different. I was referring to the suspensions/prior arrest

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Mershaaay
03/30/12 11:42:00 AM
#32:


Why does everyone act like they have enough info to judge this T Martin thing?

Because Obama already said Trayvon did nothing wrong and whatever Obama says is right and true

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Liquid Wind
03/30/12 11:42:00 AM
#33:


peoples friends and family will deny their shortcomings, shocking
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Leebo86
03/30/12 11:43:00 AM
#34:


The president said he thought there should be a full investigation and gave his condolences to the Martin family for their loss.

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saveus_Maria
03/30/12 12:37:00 PM
#35:


whether Zimmerman is a racist or a guy who just made a poor judgement call he still illegally shot and killed a minor in a case that could not have possibly been self defense. he continued to stalk the kid in his car after 911 dispatchers advised him not to, got out of the car at some point, brought a deadly weapon with him, and responded to force that could not have possibly been lethal with lethal force of his own (and that's just assuming he DIDN'T start the fight in the first place). and it's not even like they were in his house, this was just out on the street. the racist police department who intentionally botched the case are the ones who should really be in trouble here, but Zimmerman should still be charged for what he did (whatever his motives were, racism or not) and face the appropriate punishment.

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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 12:42:00 PM
#36:


could not have possibly been self defense.

But is is possible.

responded to force that could not have possibly been lethal with lethal force of his own

According to the law he had the right to use lethal force if his safety was being threatened.

I'm all for this case being taken to court, I just wish people would stop jumping on this as an excuse to villainize someone. People are insecure and they like to be able to point at someone and say, "I'm better than this person."

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Leebo86
03/30/12 12:47:00 PM
#37:


From: Theon_Greyjoy | #036
According to the law he had the right to use lethal force if his safety was being threatened.


no, the force has to be appropriate, but he has no duty to retreat

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foolm0ron
03/30/12 12:48:00 PM
#38:


From: KingButz | #026
There are numerous witnesses of character who claim that Zimmerman is not racist.


Haha what? How do you even make this claim?

Proving that someone has a certain trait is easy, just wait for them to exhibit it once. Proving that someone doesn't have a certain trait is nearly impossible.

It's like if I told you I am a billionaire. You would ask me to prove it, so I show you all my assets. But if I claimed to NOT be a billionaire, how would I prove it? There's no way to know for sure, unless maybe if we went through every asset that could possibly be owned on this planet, and check that the total of things I own is not worth 1 billion. In other words, it's impossible.

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Grand Kirby
03/30/12 12:50:00 PM
#39:


From: Theon_Greyjoy | #036
People are insecure and they like to be able to point at someone and say, "I'm better than this person."


I don't think you need to be insecure to feel good about not chasing someone down and killing them. Even if Trayvon did eventually attack him and was shot in self-defense, there's like a million better ways to handle that situation.

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KingButz
03/30/12 12:51:00 PM
#40:


From: saveus_Maria | #035
that could not have possibly been lethal


In maria's world nobody can kill with their bare hands

From: foolm0ron | #038
Proving that someone doesn't have a certain trait is nearly impossible.


I'd like to think that people are not racist until proven racist. Hmm, that reminds me of some other rule I can't quite put my finger on...

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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 12:53:00 PM
#41:


there's like a million better ways to handle that situation.

Sure there are. Everyone makes bad judgement calls sometimes.

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Rad Link 5
03/30/12 12:56:00 PM
#42:


Because the police dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin, and Zimmerman did anyway. And then he shot the unarmed Zimmerman. There is no plausible series of events that could unfold between these two events that would lead me to believe Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin.

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KingButz
03/30/12 12:57:00 PM
#43:


Technically the police dispatcher said "You don't have to do that."

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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 1:00:00 PM
#44:


He may have truly believed that Martin was going to cause trouble, so he was trying to be a hero and stop him. We just don't know.

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Rad Link 5
03/30/12 1:01:00 PM
#45:


There's also no way anyone is going to convince me he did not understand the dispatcher was telling him not to do it.

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foolm0ron
03/30/12 1:01:00 PM
#46:


From: KingButz | #039
I'd like to think that people are not racist until proven racist. Hmm, that reminds me of some other rule I can't quite put my finger on...


You can prove whether someone is guilty or not, and if you prove that they are not guilty, then that is equivalent to proving they are innocent. I agree that it's dumb to assume someone is racist without proof, but to consider witness accounts that say he is NOT racist is equally dumb.

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TheRock1525
03/30/12 1:01:00 PM
#47:


Apparently, there's a witness that came forward and testified that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.

I don't think everything is so black and white in this case.

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Rad Link 5
03/30/12 1:02:00 PM
#48:


From: Theon_Greyjoy | #044
He may have truly believed that Martin was going to cause trouble, so he was trying to be a hero and stop him.


How's that a valid defense?

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AlecTrevelyan006
03/30/12 1:04:00 PM
#49:


From: TheRock1525 | #047
I don't think everything is so black and white in this case.


Rock, I have had enough of your anti-Hispanic insinuations.

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Theon_Greyjoy
03/30/12 1:04:00 PM
#50:


Rad Link 5 posted...
From: Theon_Greyjoy | #044
He may have truly believed that Martin was going to cause trouble, so he was trying to be a hero and stop him.
How's that a valid defense?

Because it wasn't illegal for him to disobey the 911 advice.

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