No, I did not. I said VGM should try to capture the atmosphere of the game it's accompanied with. It's a matter of opinion when that happens and when it doesn't, but I think Forest Temple does just that. That is all I said, you just assume things.
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How is that the same at all?
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I said I personally don't like busy chiptune music. I never said I don't like other busy music. I just think chiptune sounds very cluttered when it's busy. I never said other people couldn't think otherwise. Stop putting words in my mouth.
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Where did I state that I don't enjoy music in all its forms?There's just some styles and approaches I personally don't like. You can never enjoy every single type of music, or enjoy every single type of music as much as other types. If you do, you are basically unbiased about an art form, which is much more horrible to me than being a musical 'conservative' even.
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I never said styles, I said approach. There's a difference, learn it. There can be busy video game music that accompanies the spirit of the game great. Again, stop putting words in my mouth.
I am not a musical bigot at all. I enjoy plenty of genres, styles and approaches. I listen to all kinds of rock, folk, jazz, hip hop, ambient, electronic, etc from all kinds of decades. I don't crap on other people for not enjoying something I do not. I'm also a musician myself who likes to play lots of different genres with other people. This does not matter at all when it comes to talking about VGM. Which is, again, music accompanied with another form of entertainment, so it shouldn't be viewed as music on its own to me because it will always remind you of the game itself in the first place.
I'm saying I don't enjoy one specific approach when it's accompanied with another entertainment form. That's all I said, so stop analyzing me and stop assuming other things.
Bolding for irony.
And seriously? You're saying videogame music doesn't stand on its own? Let me guess, you think film music doesn't, either? That'd be consistent, at least.
oddly enough I do like a lot of the cheesy samples in FFVII that are somehow lower quality than FFVI's, I actually spent a few hours trying to recreate one of the bells used in that soundtrack in a synthesizer lol
From: Liquid Wind | #102 can we get back to ff7 woodblocks already
because ff7 woodblocks are amazing
oddly enough I do like a lot of the cheesy samples in FFVII that are somehow lower quality than FFVI's, I actually spent a few hours trying to recreate one of the bells used in that soundtrack in a synthesizer lol
Honestly, if FF7 got a remake, it'd be best if PSX-era synths were used to remake the music, not real instruments. The tunes are all solid, it's just the samples that are a bunch of lol.
And seriously? You're saying videogame music doesn't stand on its own? Let me guess, you think film music doesn't, either? That'd be consistent, at least.
What's ironic about that exactly? There will always be certain types or styles of music you dislike. Read my entire post.
And I already said that about film music, again read my posts before you criticize. There will always be exceptions, but soundtracks are music made with a certain goal, that goal is to have it accompanied with the film, game or any other type of media. I don't see why you would separate them because of that. But there's clearly no actual arguing with you because you just keep assuming instead of actually reading my posts
From: VincentLauw | #103 What's ironic about that exactly? There will always be certain types or styles of music you dislike. Read my entire post.
And I already said that about film music, again read my posts before you criticize. There will always be exceptions, but soundtracks is music made with a certain goal, that goal is to have it accompanied with the film, game or any other type of media. I don't see why you would separate them because of that. But there's clearly no actual arguing with you because you just keep assuming instead of actually reading my posts
And then how do you explain Single releases? Or rerecorded videogame tunes? Surely these are not made to accompany a game. So how do they not stand on their own?
From: KanzarisKelshen | #106 And then how do you explain Single releases? Or rerecorded videogame tunes? Surely these are not made to accompany a game. So how do they not stand on their own?
From: VincentLauw | #103 There will always be exceptions
Not when there's so many exceptions that your rule is riddled with holes. That means you need a new rule. I mean, you can go back straight to freakin' Dune 2 like two decades ago and find the first big exception to your rule. More and more of those 'exceptions' have accumulated since then. When the number of exceptions runs close to the number of straight uses, you gotta reformulate your position, because it's sunk. Videogame Music isn't *just* 'music made to fit a videogame' anymore, and hasn't been since forever. Videogame music shapes games, not always the other way around. Additionally, music can and has been used in videogames that is *associated* with videogames that wasn't made to 'fit the game', for example Full Throttle's soundtrack by The Gone Jackals. You're kind of arguing an untenable position, Vincent. Can you reformulate it a bit into something that is a little more coherent?
I don't think I'd say it's bad, but I only really remember 3 tracks from it excluding victory fanfare so I can't really judge it. I only remember Cosmo Canyon, Golden Saucer and One Winged Angel.
From: KanzarisKelshen | #109 Not when there's so many exceptions that your rule is riddled with holes. That means you need a new rule. I mean, you can go back straight to freakin' Dune 2 like two decades ago and find the first big exception to your rule. More and more of those 'exceptions' have accumulated since then. When the number of exceptions runs close to the number of straight uses, you gotta reformulate your position, because it's sunk. Videogame Music isn't *just* 'music made to fit a videogame' anymore, and hasn't been since forever. Videogame music shapes games, not always the other way around. Additionally, music can and has been used in videogames that is *associated* with videogames that wasn't made to 'fit the game', for example Full Throttle's soundtrack by The Gone Jackals. You're kind of arguing an untenable position, Vincent. Can you reformulate it a bit into something that is a little more coherent?
I wouldn't call music that's in a video game VGM music when it's not made for the game itself. Free Bird by Lynyrd Skynyrd is in GTA San Andreas, but no one in their right minds calls it VGM. I wasn't talking about stuff like that, you're just grasping at straws
From: Ed Bellis | #115 Forest Temple's fine; it's just - like I said - more background-ish than I normally go for. Genesis Sonic tends to be pretty good. Monty is awesome.
and that's all i have to say about that
Now this is a position I can get behind.
From: VincentLauw | #114 I wouldn't call music that's in a video game VGM music when it's not made for the game itself. Free Bird by Lynyrd Skynyrd is in GTA San Andreas, but no one in their right minds calls it VGM. I wasn't talking about stuff like that, you're just grasping at straws
Alright then. Shaping of the World. What's your take on *that*? The game was designed around it, and not the other way around. Yet another exception?
From: KanzarisKelshen | #117 Alright then. Shaping of the World. What's your take on *that*? The game was designed around it, and not the other way around. Yet another exception?
No because it's not what I'm talking about, because you yourself just said it's the other way around in that case. How is this so hard for you
From: VincentLauw | #118 No because it's not what I'm talking about, because you yourself just said it's the other way around in that case. How is this so hard for you
It's hard for me because you're refusing to accept your position is full of holes. You can't say that you stand by something and not expect to get called out on the inconsistencies of your beliefs. So I expect you to either take a look at what you think and *realize* that there's holes in there that probably shouldn't be present, or to flatly come out and say "yeah, there's holes. I really don't care". You don't get to brush off what you don't like. Things don't work like that.
From: LeonhartFour | #119 Whenever I think of Monty, I think of the most grating introduction I've ever heard in my life and I can't get past it.
From: Ed Bellis | #125 Here's an even more pretentious video game music statement: The Zelda series as a whole does not have exceptional music. It's got a couple standout tracks per game, if that.
Here's hoping MWC isn't reading this topic or this is about to delve into "abandon ship topic unreadable" territory.
(But for the record, I agree)
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From: Rad Link 5 | #123 All of the temple music from Ocarina of Time is top tier video game music.
Except the Fire Temple theme after the chanting controversy.
Replacing the chanting with that kind of weird muffled noise drops it from A+ territory to B+.
Let's not be crazy here. They're all more in the B and B- range, with a couple Cs. A+ music is stuff like Bonds of Sea and Fire, MYTH version, or Siege of Madrigal, or Scars of Time, or Force Your Way as performed by the Black Mages. Zelda music is good, but very little of it is what I'd call good enough at what it sets out to do to earn an A grade. Maybe Temple of Time.
From: KanzarisKelshen | #122 It's hard for me because you're refusing to accept your position is full of holes. You can't say that you stand by something and not expect to get called out on the inconsistencies of your beliefs. So I expect you to either take a look at what you think and *realize* that there's holes in there that probably shouldn't be present, or to flatly come out and say "yeah, there's holes. I really don't care". You don't get to brush off what you don't like. Things don't work like that.
No you're refusing to accept that you don't get what I'm talking about, and I'm starting to see why people don't even bother anymore trying to argue with you
From: LeonhartFour | #126 Here's hoping MWC isn't reading this topic or this is about to delve into "abandon ship topic unreadable" territory.
(But for the record, I agree)
Like I said above, I stand by Temple of Time. It's 100% a background piece, but it showcases a very real truth about music: sometimes, less is more, and you don't need complexity to get a track that perfectly captures the spirit of a scene. In spite of what I've argued against Vincent, I firmly believe that some videogame music pieces are classics precisely because they create and enhance a mood instead of really standing by themselves.
Let's not be crazy here. They're all more in the B and B- range, with a couple Cs. A+ music is stuff like Bonds of Sea and Fire, MYTH version, or Siege of Madrigal, or Scars of Time, or Force Your Way as performed by the Black Mages. Zelda music is good, but very little of it is what I'd call good enough at what it sets out to do to earn an A grade. Maybe Temple of Time.
Ocarina of Time has exactly one video game song of note, and it's Gerudo Valley. You can argue for Hyrule Field (personal preference there) and maaaaybe for Windmill Hut/Song of Storms. That's it.
From: VincentLauw | #128 No you're refusing to accept that you don't get what I'm talking about, and I'm starting to see why people don't even bother anymore trying to argue with you
Summarize it for me, then. I honestly don't see how you can split approach and style - the way a musician tackles his task determines what music comes out. If you're not in an experimental mindset, you're not going to make experimental music, quiaff?
From: LeonhartFour | #131 Forest Temple is all about ambiance. I have no idea why anyone would listen to it as a standalone piece though. It barely qualifies as music.
That's pretty much why. Because it IS really good ambience.
uh, does anyone know what ambience means because forest temple is most definitely not ambience, it does have things like rhythm, harmony, melody, claiming that it "barely qualifies as music" is just a declaration that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about
From: KanzarisKelshen | #132 Summarize it for me, then.
How can I summarize already concise posts? If you don't wanna bother reading then don't bother arguing
I honestly don't see how you can split approach and style - the way a musician tackles his task determines what music comes out. If you're not in an experimental mindset, you're not going to make experimental music, quiaff?
You just defined approach. Experimental music is an approach, not a specific genre or style. You can make experimental jazz music, experimental hip hop, experimental everything. That good enough for you?
It's a declaration that I think Forest Temple is one of the most boring and uninteresting video game songs I've ever listened to, and it literally does nothing to stand out.
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Every one of the Temple themes sets the mood tremendously, and they manage to stand up very strong on their own. Well wait, I forgot about the Shadow Temple. That one's not good out of context, but in context it's no worse than a C+ And Water Temple is more of a B+.
But Forest Temple, Fire Temple 1.0, and Spirit Temple? All time greats.
I'm not even a huge fan of Ocarina of Time's whole soundtrack. What's more, I more or less agree with Ed Bellis's second pretentious statement. But the Temple music has always been some of my favorite stuff ever.
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Gerudo Valley is a beautiful piece of music. I find the rest of the OoT OST adds a lot in context, but does little independently. I think if I introduced someone to video game music with Forest Temple or File Select they'd be a bit nonplussed, but they definitely add to the atmosphere/setting in game.
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How can I summarize already concise posts? If you don't wanna bother reading then don't bother arguing
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You just defined approach. Experimental music is an approach, not a specific genre or style. You can make experimental jazz music, experimental hip hop, experimental everything. That good enough for you?
Now see, here's where we disagree. You're looking at the example I gave, and not the bigger picture. Approach is...well, it's not entirely where style comes from, but a majority of it. Where does the desire to play jazz come from? From you saying 'I want to do music that is both relaxed and energetic, that conforms to this and this and this set of specifications', even if it you don't do it consciously. Where does heavy metal come from? From somebody saying 'you know what? I want to play harder than anybody else has played before. Louder. Rougher.'. And of course, from people saying 'I want to play like X!'. Your goals and mood when you approach music are responsible for what comes out for the most part. I think we are in agreement on this, correct?
From: Liquid Wind | #136 uh, does anyone know what ambience means because forest temple is most definitely not ambience, it does have things like rhythm, harmony, melody, claiming that it "barely qualifies as music" is just a declaration that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about
It's not music that's trying to call attention to itself, but instead sets a mood. It is music that sets an ambience. It also falls under another style that I cannot for the life of me remember the name of, but that's beside the point.
it's minimalist, you could even use the term "ambient music", but not ambience. ambience would be literally just background noises, like most of the gameplay portions of ICO, if it has rhythm, harmony, or melody it "qualifies as music"
From: Liquid Wind | #145 it's minimalist, you could even use the term "ambient music", but not ambience. ambience would be literally just background noises, like most of the gameplay portions of ICO, if it has rhythm, harmony, or melody it "qualifies as music"
Right. Ambient Music is a good label for it. Leon is being hyperbolic there.
The thing is, I like listening to ambient music. Music is usually an emotional thing for me, by which I mean I use music to either set or compliment the mood I'm in. So ambient music suits me just fine.
I understand not everyone enjoys music that way, and judging from the topic and by popular taste in music, most people don't enjoy it that way.
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Final Fantasy VII having one or two good songs doesn't save it. >_> Especially when they **** up two key songs of the franchise. Final Fantasy X changed the beat of the Chocobo song in a drastic way, but it was a nice change.. Final Fantasy VII however just made me want to punch the composer.
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