The Rivalry Rumble: Before the contest started, we knew it was a bad idea. We didn't know it would be this bad, perhaps, but we knew it was never going to be good.
Sure, the bracket could have been better, but the simple fact is that no one cared about rivalries much. What were they anyway? No one knew. We assumed that Cloud and Sephiroth would be closer to Link and Ganondorf than Cloud was to Link on his own, and we were wrong, because "rivalry factor" worked in a different way to how we expected.
It seems like the voters took the "Greatest Gaming Rivalry" to mean something that existed throughout gaming's history, placed in the context of Nintendo and Square RPGs taking a prominent place in that history, and that some rivalries simply appealed more than others, the Poketrainers prime among them. Some bombed, like Leon/Ada, Freeman/Breen, any anything recent. Some did better than the would if split into their parts, like Big Boss/The Boss and Sub-Zero/Scorpion. Some didn't look too great but held it together, like Sonic/Robotnik, Solid/Liquid, Squall/Seifer. Things would be clearer if the bracket wasn't filled with SFF, but that's how it is. No one will look back to this contest much anyway.
It provided no excitement and will go down as famously predictable. There was a point during Link/Ganon vs. Cloud/Seph where transience made a topic saying the contests should end because: I'm sitting on a 61 match winning streak with 57 other people by refusing to pick a single upset. our best rivalry has turned into a 60/40. our voter pool has been cut in half. three of the final four come from the same company (and, based on this match, it might be the strongest three). we have a userbase obsessed with nostalgia. the strongest new character from the past ten years would probably get beaten by at least 20-25 other guys.. The board was gripped by existential doubt. And then it happened.
As if the the contest's spirit itself realised the peril it now faced, it gave us a match to remember. Fittingly, it was an afterthought, shoe-horned into the structure on the fly. A massive start, a huge comeback, 12 hours of virtual deadlock punctured by attempt and counter-attempt to pull away, before Pokemon almost let itself get pipped to the line, holding on by 10 votes. It outpolled Zelda/FFVII by 4000 votes. Suddenly, we were reminded that these things can be dramatic and fun.
The Problems Faced: Nintendo's Power: I don't think Nintendo is invincible. It's always been very strong, and only ever beaten by FFVII or jokes. It's invincible if you ask voters to think about gaming as a whole, because Nintendo has been a more dominant force across gaming's history than any other, and it reuses the same characters and series, giving them a very broad base of support. If you want to see Nintendo made vulnerable, you have to divide it up. I'll come on to that below.
The Low Votals: This is probably the biggest problem, and can only partly be addressed by contests. The site has to do something to make itself relevant to modern gaming - I suggest by focusing on creating and moderating useful and useable wikis for every game that has the fanbase to support them - and ultimately contests can only be a part of that. Still, any contest could draw more votes than this one. It wouldn't take a massive effort to get back to 70k or so votes during big contest polls, which is good enough for me.
Predictability: Blame a bad contest idea combined with poor bracket-making.
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Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ. (Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!)
Not even bad bracket making could make this a bad contest. You have the debate about the standing amongst the old games, amongst the GotD games, and the new wildcards (SMG2, Skyrim, Skyward Sword, Mass Effect 3, Portal 2, etc.). While it's possible that RBY is simply a tier above everything else - I remain to be convinced - it's also possible to construct the bracket such that it's quarter doesn't include any huge hitters and so the contest wouldn't be greatly damaged even if it was super-strong.
There's a debate to be had about including FFVII, but I fear that including it and RBY could result in them decimating their sides of the bracket before FFVII wins with ease. I think the best set up is to have the winner face FFVII, and the winner of that match face OoT. There is no point removed Majora's Mask: it had to pull out every trick in the book to defeat FFX and Brawl, and any rematches would be hotly debated.
Hold it during the summer next year, and watch those votals fly.
Best System Ever., 16/32 entrants, 1v1, 12 hour matches R1 if 32, all 24 hours if 16
Nothing gets the fanboys out like console wars. Careful bracket making is required not to ruin this - the SNES and PS2 are almost certainly above everything apart from, possibly, the N64, and the PS1 isn't likely to lose to anything other than those three either. We want to have as many debatable matches as possible, especially among the new systems. I can only imagine what the boards would be like during a close PS3/360 match, or another involving the Wii.
I suggest making it 32 entrants because we would inevitably see legendary blowouts, which are always fun. Could the Colecovision break 5% on the SNES? Heck, could it break 5% on the PSP? Who knows.
People care about their consoles, and it would have a debated winner that might even not be Nintendo. Votals would be much better than during the Rivalry Rumble, for certain.
Inevitably has the potential for unpredictability and a non-Nintendo winner. The only danger is that the non-VG characters bomb because GameFAQs voters are a bunch of traditionalists and the LAW isn't challenged, but even then there should be some good matches.
Characters, 128 entrants, 1v1, 12 hour matches R1-R4, Link removed to a Championship match
The top end of the Noble Nine has never been so debated behind Link. Other than Mario > Samus and Cloud > Sephiroth, every match between Mario/Cloud/Samus/Snake/Sephiroth would be debated. Mega Man, Sonic, Crono and the other near-elites, both Nintendo and Square, could also provide interesting matches against each other. Good bracket making is still required - no one needs to see Luigi or Samus get killed by Mario or Square near-elites stuck against Cloud or Sephiroth. 2010 rematches like Snake/Pikachu, Auron/Squall and Bowser/Sora aren't going to be great fun either. If creating a host of debated and likely close matches means sticking Mario and Cloud in the same quadrant, as in 2002, so be it.
What Shouldn't Happen Next:
Characters, without non-VG originating, with Link: No one needs to see the LAW upheld without a fight. That would do nothing but damage morale even further. Even if the rest of the contest was exciting, the shadow of Link smashing someone at the start of each round would ruin it.
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Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ. (Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!)
The End of Contests: Killing contests off because of one stinker isn't the way to do it. GotD and CBVIII were fine, and there's no reason this can't just be a blip like the Villains' or Series' Contests were.
I firmly believe these contests can be a lot of fun, and can be good for the site, as long as they're interesting, appealing and contain a reasonable element of unpredictability. One day they'll come to an end, but that day doesn't have to be today.
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Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ. (Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!)
Characters, 128 entrants, 1v1, 12 hour matches R1-R4, Link removed to a Championship match
I'd be for this, with more consideration to bracket creation which was horribly poor this year. The fictional contest is a bad idea I wouldn't like to see happen, as is returning to 4-ways.
I want to add that a Series of the Decade contest could also be interesting, albeit the timing is a little late for that.
Halo Kingdom Hearts Portal Mass Effect Assassin's Creed Bioshock Paper Mario (if SMK is allowed...) Dragon Age Call of Duty Devil May Cry Shadow Hearts
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GamF@qs = Large amounts of text and merry-goround- debates that normally end with going off topic and talking about something that nobody cares about --Lambent7
I don't like the system one because there will be very few entrants.For a contest to work we need at least 64 entries.
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GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~
I can understand not wanting consoles. It's a tough one to bracket. Perhaps the best time to have it would be during the next gen once the Wii U, 3DS and Vita are well established and the current batch are retired.
I forgot to add "Going back to fourways" to the list of things not to do. They won't stop Link winning a character battle, and they'd likely ruin a games bracket with heavy LFF all over the place.
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Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ. (Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!)
cherry-picking particular things to disqualify is dumb. You'd have to disallow entire categories for it to be anything other than completely arbitrary.
I think a contest made entirely of newcomers is the way to go.
The best idea for sure is Best. Game. Ever. mixed eras, OoT out.
Again, I don't get the problem with including FFVII, since I'm honestly not really even convinced it can make the finals if they are in the bracket.
I fail to see any signs that shows FFVII will be "decimating their sides of the bracket". People get their impressions of FFVII's invincibility from the outdated 2004 contest. In 2004, when FFVII was at it's peak, it's entire path was almost purely Square or PS1 games, with no major Nintendo games other than OoT, so it's final versus CT of ~58% doesn't give us a good estimate of what it can do with say ALttP. 2004, again is horribly outdated. Who would honestly take CT > ALttP again? I think ALttP has a higher chance of breaking 60% than losing.
Next, we see that in 2009, FFVII for most of the time hanging out with 2-3 Nintendo games, making it difficult to gauge its true strength on a 1v1 setting. Also, realize that OoT was able to outperform itself on FFVII by about 5% compared to 2004. Now either OoT itself has got stronger, or Nintendo overall has, and I think that the answer is the latter. This means that in 2009, based on FFVII>CT 2004, I believe that ALttP can probably score a respectable ~47% on FFVII.
Then by this year, Cloud/Sephiroth has continued to show how much FFVII has fallen. Link's insane 58.3% might be a result of perfect SS release timing, but Pokemon's victory, rallied or not, has me convinced that Pokemon RBY > FFVII will probably also happen today.
The reason why OoT NEEDS to be retired is that out of the top 10 games on the site, about 7-8 are Nintendo. Considering OoT is the KING of SFF, it's clear that it can score 65+% on almost anything that isn't FFVII. However, if FFVII is put in the bracket, it will be constantly challenged by a ton of top tier Nintendo games. I'm sure that SM64/SMW/SMB3 can put up some ridiculous percentage on FFVII, while ALttP and RBY might win the match outright.
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If an active verb shows action, then a passive verb shows passion
That sounds all right.The final boss will be OOT then.As for FFVII yeah the mighty have fallen.I am sure that LTTP,Melee,Brawl,RBY can challenge it.
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GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~
Not a fan of Best.System.Ever. The other contest ideas would be great though, my favorite being a game contest without OoT, but good luck with that one.
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I think someone is being way, way too sensitive. Do we have to stop saying "You got owned" in order to not offend black people due to slavery? - wg64Z
For a company contest, I'd be hestitant: Nintendo and Square would probably lay down record numbers. If Zelda got 74% on Metal Gear, Nintendo might get 80% on Konami.
There are some decent contestants, though....hm.... Capcom Konami Sega Valve Sega Sony Blizzard Bethesda Game Freak (if it counts) Rare
It would be best as a mini-contest, though. (16 entrants) I don't see anything wrong with doing a mini-contest every once in a while. They don't always have to be big and grand.
And, yeah, If we do a character contest, I think we would NEED Bacon to either put some serious thought into making it difficult, or somehow get others with past contest knowledge involved.
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"Ah, a party! We haven't had one of those. So...what is a party?" "Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think."
i love All-Fictional personally but if that's not happening, no doubt that 128 games with a ToC gauntlet is the way to go. (i know MM doesn't technically have to be removed, but I feel like it would be and that's fine. champion/MM would be a debatable match, as would the winner of that against FF7; only the Grand Final will be in little doubt.
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Leafs / Raptors / Blue Jays / TFC / Argos / Tottenham [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]
32 entrants isn't enough for a real contest, but the other three are great. Also wouldn't mind some sort of items or weapons contest for the sheer novelty - any number of contestants could conceivably take the crown there. Games > Characters > Gear, but it's the only one we haven't had yet...
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"Ovelia ... SPOILERS IN THE KEYWORDS WOOPS" - Vormav
At first I thought you were talking to me, iGenesis. Hey, I have an idea: give a prize to the top 3. Everyone needs to do a surprise Christmas gift, right? >_>
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"Ah, a party! We haven't had one of those. So...what is a party?" "Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think."
From: Haste_2 | #023 At first I thought you were talking to me, iGenesis. Hey, I have an idea: give a prize to the top 3. Everyone needs to do a surprise Christmas gift, right? >_>
I can agree with that! :3
-- GameFAQs.com: Where YOU make the content, but CBS makes the money. http://lueshi.info/Mario_Zelda_Tier_List.gif
Nintendo would crush a developer contest. LoZ would beat FF easier today than in '06, and the rest of Nintendo surely adds more than the rest of Square(Soft/Enix). I mean, Mario/FF would be debatable today, while KH/Smash or KH/Pokemon wouldn't even be close. It could rival this contest for being the worst ever, apart from that it would draw better votals.
I disagree about 32 entrants not being enough for a (system) contest. There were only 32 entrants in both the Villains' and Series' Contest, and most of those weren't close to the big guns. I think a system contest would, with a half-decent bracket, be a lot better than both of those. I'm not suggesting it be the only contest in its year, but it would be an exciting and controversial mini-contest.
Edit: I intend to claim my Spread Betting prize, if it can be delivered to me in some way (I'm a UKer).
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Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ. (Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!)
The main problem I see with running a games contest without OOT or a character contest without Link is that we hurt the votals, which is not exactly what we need. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the GOTD contest also have votal problems?
LinkMarioSamus | Posted 12/20/2011 8:14:10 PM | message detail | quote The main problem I see with running a games contest without OOT or a character contest without Link is that we hurt the votals, which is not exactly what we need. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the GOTD contest also have votal problems?
GOTD happened during a time when GameFAQs was starting to decline. Because of all the 12-hour matches in the contest, estimating the votals would not be 100% accurate. I estimated the votals to be around 73500 (over a 24-hour match). That's still about 11000 votes better than the votals were we getting on non-contest polls before the contest started.
-- Luster Soldier --- ~Shield Bearer~ | ~Data Analyst~ Popular at school, but not as cool as BlAcK TuRtLe, Guru Champ!
How about a character contest using only characters created after 2000? That gets rid of the predictability problem very neatly.
Auron wins and nobody cares about half the characters in the bracket. Imagine divisions full of Eddie Riggs and Ellis.
Agree with the weaknesses of this contest stated in the various threads, but nobody has pointed out the obvious problem. LINK ISN'T WINNING BY ENOUGH COME ON GUYS.
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"Ovelia ... SPOILERS IN THE KEYWORDS WOOPS" - Vormav
The problem with ideas like "no Nintendo or Square" and "no characters from before 2000" is that most of the site doesn't give a damn about characters from outside those categories, with a couple of exceptions, like, for the first, Snake and Sonic (though does appearing in Brawl make them Nintendo?) and Auron, Kratos, Dante, for the second. Fodder vs. fodder matches are the worst thing possible for votals, and even a 64 entrant bracket with those restrictions based on it would contain lots of them.
Don't draw the mistaken conclusion from the above that the site doesn't care about post-2000 gaming. A section of the site doesn't, but most of it does. The simple fact is that gaming today is much less character focused than it was in the late 90s and early 00s. Skyrim will probably become the first game ever to deny a main Zelda title the GameFAQs GOTY this year (well, other than FFIX in 2000), but can it contribute any characters? No. This generation has contributed plenty of non-fodder games: Portal, Mass Effect 1 and 2, soon 3, Assassin's Creed II, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim, Skyward Sword, MGS4, SSBB, Arkham Asylum, City, Uncharted 2, likely some others. But in terms of new characters? Shepard and Ezio can pass for decent mid-carders and Altair and GlaDOS are probably not fodder at this point, but that's about it.
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Who knew the Rivalry Rumble would be so predictable? SuperNiceDog, that's who.
Auron,Dante and Sora would be the strongest.I would like to see it thought because I am sure that a Zelda character would win.
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GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~
From: Kotetsu534 | Posted: 12/21/2011 1:22:10 PM | #032 Skyrim will probably become the first game ever to deny a main Zelda title the GameFAQs GOTY this year (well, other than FFIX in 2000), but can it contribute any characters?
Delvin Mallory, though he would be fodder at best.
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So what happened to Simon at the end of TTGL? http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/3305/187426-after_cid_large.png
Does he really? I somehow doubt that. And are there really that few notable characters since 2000?
Auron is the strongest by a pretty substantial margin. Dante is probably up next, followed by Sora and Leon Kennedy. Kratos and Shep should also snag 1-seeds. After that point I think it would be a bunch of FFX characters and Vivi.
The simple fact is that gaming today is much less character focused than it was in the late 90s and early 00s.
Many Nintendo franchises are using mostly the same characters. As you mentioned many mainstream western games aren't character-centric. There are 00's games that do offer characters worthy of a contest, but for whatever reason they don't have a high playrate. Big 90's RPG's have strength here, as do many of their representatives, but apparently the folks that played these didn't stick with the genre and play RPG's from the following generation. Besides FFX, seems like characters from 00's RPG's only make contests due to devoted nominators and then get destroyed. My guess is that someone like Etna would be pretty strong if everyone here who played FF7 also gave Disgaea a shot.
Leon isn't a character that debuted from 2000 and onwards.He first was in Resident Evil 2 which came out in 1998.
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GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~