SupremeZero posted... KanzarisKelshen posted... LillySatou posted... "lol im not to blame for writing a bad move"
1. It's pure Melee, and Lightning has a higher STR than she does MAA. When used against those with weak END, it does massive damage just because of this. 2. It has a large base, with a chance to deal more damage. 3. Instant death isn't that bad, right? Anyone who has been taking a beating will surely die from it. 4. If I'm reading this correctly, if it is combined with focus+a decent chunk of stagger, it should be pretty powerful.
@Shrunken:
I felt like Saber was a counter towards Archer. High STR, what seemed like weird movement(You literally came out of nowhere when I used my second CS, and I started the turn on a high spot) and how I intended to flee when you hit us before the GMaport but didn't for some stupid reason. Also, apparently you can kill Ayumi's familiars easily if you wanted.
1) It does 10 more damage than Army of One combined with Stagger's base damage bonus. Add an Elemental Strike and you have more damage for less mana. Don't give me bull about doing more damage when *we did the math on it* 2) My basic attacks have large bases too in the situations where we're comparing them, but they cost a fifth of the mana. They also don't shoot the stagger gain to hell. 3) Instant death is terrible when you need to have a target below 100 to kill...and surprise surprise, the base damage is something like 90. Sure worth it, burning so much mana on that 10 HP killshot instead of just fighting smart!
So basically you didn't read the sheet at all, which is good to know. Next time, do the math and then come back to me. Rider had good sustained damage, but sustained damage is not worth anything in a war.
Yes, Kanz. You will do 100 damage with a 90 base attack, when your offensive stats are C average. There's also hit count (Zantetsuken's 1 to Ao1's 11), and the fact that 100 health is still a good 1/3 of the max health.
And you forget the important bit: it's a third of max health after a good five rounds of combat because losing stagger made it nigh-on impossible to get some damage going. So yay, I'm doing 40 damage for four turns before spiking up to like...80 damage. By that point I've been kaboomed to zero. This is, again, on a one-on-one situation. Without a mano a mano, I'm down to elemstrike combos/ruin combos, which cuts the damage down further. Again, look past the shiny numbers and at the usability factor. You've got theory DPS, I've got practical DPS.
Sceptilesolarbeam posted... You're changing your story somewhat. Haven't you acknowledged that there is a damage range where Zantetsuken is preferable? In which case it's not completely useless. Mostly useless, yes, but that's nothing new.
Incoherent is a major exaggeration, since you've already been able to create a theory as to the sheet's goals. And incidentally, there's also nothing wrong with a sheet encouraging drawn-out battles, as long as you pick your fights properly to compensate.
Scep, you've played more wars than I have. How many times do battles last five-six rounds? What about five-six rounds uninterrupted pre-final battle? If we had a skill to isolate people for two turns of 1v1, sure, I'd have played poorly, but in practical terms we couldn't use Army of One because we didn't have the mobility to strike and run.
Scep, you've played more wars than I have. How many times do battles last five-six rounds? What about five-six rounds uninterrupted pre-final battle? If we had a skill to isolate people for two turns of 1v1, sure, I'd have played poorly, but in practical terms we couldn't use Army of One because we didn't have the mobility to strike and run.
Rarely, but that's a circular argument. The only reason battles tend to be over more quickly is because a team can usually kill any other team in approximately four turns. That still doesn't deny another option.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Sceptilesolarbeam posted... Scep, you've played more wars than I have. How many times do battles last five-six rounds? What about five-six rounds uninterrupted pre-final battle? If we had a skill to isolate people for two turns of 1v1, sure, I'd have played poorly, but in practical terms we couldn't use Army of One because we didn't have the mobility to strike and run.
Rarely, but that's a circular argument. The only reason battles tend to be over more quickly is because a team can usually kill any other team in approximately four turns. That still doesn't deny another option.
Yes, right, but when people band together battles don't last that long. Also, if I get killed in four turns I never get my high theoretical deeps, so we're back to square one already. And I also want to know what the hell is circular about saying "hey, enemies can burst us down before we get mad deeps and until then we're mediocre, there's a problem here".
KanzarisKelshen posted... SupremeZero posted... KanzarisKelshen posted... LillySatou posted... "lol im not to blame for writing a bad move"
1. It's pure Melee, and Lightning has a higher STR than she does MAA. When used against those with weak END, it does massive damage just because of this. 2. It has a large base, with a chance to deal more damage. 3. Instant death isn't that bad, right? Anyone who has been taking a beating will surely die from it. 4. If I'm reading this correctly, if it is combined with focus+a decent chunk of stagger, it should be pretty powerful.
@Shrunken:
I felt like Saber was a counter towards Archer. High STR, what seemed like weird movement(You literally came out of nowhere when I used my second CS, and I started the turn on a high spot) and how I intended to flee when you hit us before the GMaport but didn't for some stupid reason. Also, apparently you can kill Ayumi's familiars easily if you wanted.
1) It does 10 more damage than Army of One combined with Stagger's base damage bonus. Add an Elemental Strike and you have more damage for less mana. Don't give me bull about doing more damage when *we did the math on it* 2) My basic attacks have large bases too in the situations where we're comparing them, but they cost a fifth of the mana. They also don't shoot the stagger gain to hell. 3) Instant death is terrible when you need to have a target below 100 to kill...and surprise surprise, the base damage is something like 90. Sure worth it, burning so much mana on that 10 HP killshot instead of just fighting smart!
So basically you didn't read the sheet at all, which is good to know. Next time, do the math and then come back to me. Rider had good sustained damage, but sustained damage is not worth anything in a war.
Yes, Kanz. You will do 100 damage with a 90 base attack, when your offensive stats are C average. There's also hit count (Zantetsuken's 1 to Ao1's 11), and the fact that 100 health is still a good 1/3 of the max health.
And you forget the important bit: it's a third of max health after a good five rounds of combat because losing stagger made it nigh-on impossible to get some damage going. So yay, I'm doing 40 damage for four turns before spiking up to like...80 damage. By that point I've been kaboomed to zero. This is, again, on a one-on-one situation. Without a mano a mano, I'm down to elemstrike combos/ruin combos, which cuts the damage down further. Again, look past the shiny numbers and at the usability factor. You've got theory DPS, I've got practical DPS.
What an interesting number. Let's try this one out, then. Start with 100 AP. Army of One, (52 stagger), shift to Commando, Ruin. 60 stagger. They lose 15, so 45. You can either CS to regen 100 AP, or You regen 80 AP. Army of One again. Another 52 Stagger, so 97. They lose 30, so 67. Or, if you CS'd, you can hit them with either an elemental strike or ruin, and they hit max, and don't lose that turn. Next turn, Odin, Zantetsuken. 3 turns CS aided.
Alternative is no CS, So they're at 67, and you got 10 AP. Regen 80, got 90, Army of One. Max Stagger, so they don't lose it next turn. Next turn, you regen to max, activate Odin, Zantetsuken. Look, you got 4 turns without CS, at a cost of 327 Mana, which is fully doable if you focus your mana regen on Rider. With the CS, you only paid for Ao1 twice, so it's 262. Actually doable without factoring for Regen.
Here's another way. Ruin 3 times, Ruinga, 40 Stagger, lose 15, so 25. Do it again. 40 Stagger, so 65, lose 15, so 40. Swap to Ravager. Ele-strike to Ao1, max Stagger in 4 turns for 211 mana. Cheaper than the previous method, though with lower damage output.
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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.
Here's another one. Start at 100 AP. Ruin x3 to Ruinga, 40 Stagger, lose 15, so 25. Activate Odin next turn, Storm Blade x3, 85 AP, lose 30 so 55. Storm Blade x3, maxed out, Zantetsuken next turn. Zan on 4th turn again. This one gives you some less time to play with Odin after your Zantetsuken, but only costs Odin and Zantetsuken's costs (which are in all of these) and 2 turns of Odin's upkeep.
Another. Start at 100. Ao1, 52 stagger, lose 30, 22 stagger. Do the same as the previous strategy. More damage for higher cost. Still on 4th turn.
All of these are, of course, ignoring combat entry in someone else's fight, but that's easily dealt with; don't. Only the first 2 involve using non-delayable skills the first round. But most importantly of all, is the obvious point: Where the hell is "after 5 turns of combat" coming from?
(Yes, the original post was too bloody long)
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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.
You're not taking into account team battles, which make up most of the recent faiten in Grail Wars.
Multiple servants using their most powerful attacks can take a servant down rather quickly, and iirc the NP we are talking about is one of, if not the, strongest attack[s] that Rider has.
And Odin does give a buff. An AGI boost and lower damage against you can be useful. Especially with Rider's okish AGI and defensive stats.
And yes, you could have struck and run. You could have asked us to send you in during the first combat phase, if you wanted to pull some cool tricks out. We didn't use Rider that way though, since the other two teams you were allied with didn't pry too much into your sheet. I know I told you how Archer played, and that it was best for us to snipe instead of be attacked a lot.
PS: with 30 manareg, it's also not doable at 320 mana unless you want to Ruin for the next four turns.
PPS: Method 3 has a sustained DPR of about 45 pre-resists so you still didn't refute my claim of doing crap damage until stagger is up. Also, you just pointed out to everyone that you have to burn most of your mana to max stagger on a character that relies on the 75% boost to deal good damage, so kudos on showing the incoherence of it to everyone.
PPS: And Method 2 suffers from super severe manaburn because of upkeep costs and having no followup attacks either. Ain't life grand?
PPPPS: In case it wasn't clear, the problem is that we need to reach 75% stagger to deal good damage. To reach those values, we have to burn so much mana we can't deal good damage anymore, or sit on Ruin chains while our opponents rip us to pieces. Funnily enough, we just happen to get outdamaged in that timespan.
@Satou: You missed the way I died, right? Just to be doubleplussure before I lol at you?
So basically, let me clarify my problem: Rider had decent base mechanics, but the war just doesn't support sustained fighting like that. If everybody's base HP was 600, Rider would be a goddamn monster. But when burst is king and everybody else does BETTER damage in the turns that matter (i. e. the ones that aren't theory op) she just doesn't work. She would have gotten a hundred times better if Alena's jewel charge could have powered her up, or if she had a chance to drop stagger benefits when she wanted to, or if Odin retained skills. Really, she was THIS close to being good, but due to having hodgepodge mechanics was TERRIBLE instead.
Also, just for fun and because I'm annoyed at you guys not seeing my point, I'm willing to run math tests against other characters. For fairness' sake I won't run a test against Assassin or Berserker, so go ahead and pick any other Servant/Master pair and we'll see how Rider fares. Just for kicks.
What did ryo say about the intended method of combat here again? Maybe I'm crazy, but I think it was multiple teams. And you have a bloody damage reflector. Which you didn't even try to use until rider was already dead.
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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.
SupremeZero posted... What did ryo say about the intended method of combat here again? Maybe I'm crazy, but I think it was multiple teams. And you have a bloody damage reflector.
The 4-to-12-damage reflector? Are we gonna argue THAT? Seriously? I mean, if you want to argue it fine, I can include it in the math tests, but it remains a nonfactor. And I'm still waiting on a reply on what our ideal teams were because unless we ally with exactly the right set of people to block the pull+freeze trick we still lose.
SupremeZero posted... I will when the silly thing has 0 cooldown, yes.
Right, and at full tilt it OOMs you in...one, two, three and a half turns. With charges that's...six turns with off-the-cuff math, though I could be under/overshooting it by as much as a turn. That bounces about...45 damage or so? This is pre-resistances of course so reduced, it's about...30 maximum. Probably less.
EDIT: And to clarify, this is while tanking a potent attack that hits for 58 damage a turn. Pretty much a best case scenario as we're not discussing weak pellets but big hits.
EDIT EDIT: ...At long range, 10 damage is reflected back to Archer. Whoop-dee-freakin'-doo.
For the sake of fairness I'll say one thing: Thundaga is an amazing skill and made Rider into a super workable area attacker because it combined with pretty much anything to great effect. Currently considering whether to run a math test with all-in conditions or practical conditions. Opinions?
SupremeZero posted... Meanwhile, you take half damage. So you're roughly dealing around the same amount you're taking. At long range. Before rider.
-Crystal Reflector Rank: C Type: Reactionary Properties: Physical Barrier Cost: 14 mana Requirements: A projectile attack is used against Alena or her servant. Maximum Targets: 1 [self or servant]
Description: Creates a crystal mirror which can reflect projectiles back to their user. The effect vary based on the rank of the attack. ---Rank E-D: 50% of the damage is reduced and dealt back to the attacker. ---Rank: C-B: 25% of the damage is reduced and dealt back to the attacker. ---Rank A: 10% of the damage is reduced and dealt back to the attacker. ---Rank EX: No effect. ---Prior knowledge of an attack's properties is needed in order to set conditionals for it.
-Cork Sign: Terukuni Throughout the World *IMPORTANTIMPORTANTIMPORTANT*Rank: A++*IMPORTANTIMPORTANTIMPORTANT* Type: Offensive, Magical Properties: Wind Elemental, Projectile Cost: 100 AP, 125 mana Requirements: Aya is at a high location. Wind God: Storm Day is active. 6 turn cooldown. Damage: 63 Magical Maximum Targets: Entire Map Delayable: No
Description: A massively powerful spellcard that fills every corner of the map with magical bullets, offering no escape to anyone. ---Protected masters are hit for 40% damage. ---Doesn't hit anyone inside of Aya's current area.
SupremeZero posted... Why the hell do you care about terukuni? Gale bullet was archer's single target snipe.
Oh, so you want to argue the attack that OOMs you in two turns, including jewel charges? Well...be my guest, sure. Archer wins that trade over time, easily with metagaming, pretty easily without. Plus she has the double damage shenanigans on top for extra funzies.
Why the hell do you care about terukuni? Gale bullet was archer's single target snipe (and main, Really). And the one without a damn weeklong cooldown.
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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.
Yes, I'm running these calcs with full manareg and allowing Rider to decay. Archer wins the trade anyway because Alena only blocks three out of seven shots post turn two. Blocking a full barrage consumes 96 mana.
And again, this isn't including Ayumi's familiars. Add them for bonus damage if you feel like it, but you still lose the trade if archer keeps permadodging rider, which she should.
14 AP per shot times 6 would mean that she would have to spend 84, just 1 AP under he regen.
You can spend one extra Gale Bullet at one time, but it wont regen unless you do the Tree Leave NP as well as the Wind God one(which is absurd, considering the upkeep)
LillySatou posted... You are forgetting the AP regen.
14 AP per shot times 6 would mean that she would have to spend 84, just 1 AP under he regen.
You can spend one extra Gale Bullet at one time, but it wont regen unless you do the Tree Leave NP as well as the Wind God one(which is absurd, considering the upkeep)
It isn't actually. You lose 8 mana a turn if you go full-tilt onto Aya. That's...super cheap considering you're not only upping your damage but also cutting the reflection damage down. It's win-win and the only reason it might not be profitable is if you're on the move because the AP bonus mysteriously doesn't carry over between zones. You can literally do 30 nights of salvos before having to drop either Phantasm, and one way or another there will have been a death before that.
You literally need to keep one NP active at all times in order to snipe. The other just gives the extra shot per turn, but will make the mana regen afterwards be 14.
That's not much, if you want to spam Paper Chickens and constantly refresh the NPs.
Judging by the exacts of what he said, I don't think he noticed that both of the NP's have turn limits. Or that one of them also has a cooldown, probably.
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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.