Poll of the Day > Can someone explain the whole trans athlete thing to me?

(+) Yeah! (+)

All I know is that there is some controversy about trans athletes and whether it is fair to have them compete against people who arent trans.

I think I heard on one of Joe Rogans podcasts a while a while back that it isnt fair to let a trans woman compete with people that were born women because the trans athletes essentially developed their bones and muscles while their bodies were producing more testosterone so it gives them an unfair advantage.

The logic of that makes sense to be but I dont know if it is true or if that is the whole story. Ive seen some comments online claiming that it isnt that simple.

I had some family visiting from out of town and they were really engaged about this issue for whatever reason. I told them I didnt really know about the situation and stayed out of it because I dont really know the truth of the situation, how much of it is propaganda from the left or right, and I also dont follow sports so it really doesnt effect me at all.

Also this topic is really not about stirring any shit up so please be reasonably respectful and decent towards all.

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Imma flame the next poster.

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Mead, why?

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Man, I misread the topic title as train athletes and got excited

Was hoping for a jacked Thomas the Tank engine

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EvilMegas posted...

Mead, why?

So that I will have a better understanding about it? If people I know are misinforming each other Id like to be able to speak up and tell them the truth of the matter.

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I don't know that much about it but the issue I have with it is that I don't think it's really a major thing that's going on? Like it just seems like a problem invented by transphobes to discriminate while being "reasonable". It's like the dumb bathroom bill shit

CoorsLight posted...

I don't know that much about it but the issue I have with it is that I don't think it's really a major thing that's going on? Like it just seems like a problem invented by transphobes to discriminate while being "reasonable". It's like the dumb bathroom bill shit

Yeah I think youre right. Seems like there have only been a handful of stories about it but a lot of the people freaking out about it act like it is constantly happening.

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there isn't really any compelling evidence that trans women have a consistent advantage over cis women in professional sports. they have advantages in some ways and disadvantages in others. every athlete has physical advantages they use to succeed, but nobody says tall women should be banned from women's basketball, for example. trans women get treated differently here because of transphobia

it's not like trans women are winning everything - whenever they set any records transphobes do another enormous public freakout about it

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Trans men and women should have their own divisions, its the only way to make it fair.

Real women just need to pull themselves up by the bootstrap and train harder to overcome innate biological differences between men and women

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MICHALECOLE posted...

Trans men and women should have their own divisions, its the only way to make it fair.

1. sports are never going to be 'fair' in this sense because everyone has a different body.
2. this is basically banning them from professional sports -- there aren't enough trans people interested in sports to make this work

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The crux of the issue is that endogenous testosterone production (especially through puberty) gives a definite advantage to trans women over cis women, which isn't particularly fair.

The other side of that, though, is that athletes with some manner of clear genetic advantage dominating their non-advantaged competitors is nothing new. Phelps is a good example of this: The dude's got an 8-foot wingspan (might only be 7, whatever) and a mutation that causes him to produce dramatically less lactic acid than normal people (meaning he fatigues far more slowly than others). Despite this, he's allowed to compete with regular, non-mutant men. Meanwhile, Semenya naturally produces more testosterone than regular women, and she was subjected to extremely rigorous testing to prove that she wasn't secretly a man.

The fundamental idea of wanting a level playing field is reasonable, and part of that includes weeding out people with an innate biological advantage, but the long history of segregating sports by gender means that sex (and especially testosterone levels) is given special attention that other genetic advantages don't see, which strikes me as being more about preserving tradition than a genuine interest in ensuring the field is as level as possible. To truly level the field would entail removing sexual segregation and instead more directly quantifying degrees of genetic advantage and using those as the basis for a more nuanced suite of competitive classes, but people are generally just content to stick with the current way of doing things and argue about the occasional trans athlete.

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Basically, if a man discovers that they are a woman, and then she starts taking medicine to change their bodychemistry, it won't be a 100% transition down. There's some things that can't be actually be fully transitioned.
So there's a bit of an issue with the fact that men are physically stronger than women, in certain ways. So if you take a male body, and move it towards the female body, that person will straight up be better because of their chemistry.

A lot of sports is about becoming the best version of yourself, so someone coming along and doing better because of something unrelated to their training, is kind of shitty.

You get a lot of MtF trans people who go to the other category, and then start crushing. It's not an easy answer, and one that I kind of don't care about because I'm not trans, and I'm not an athlete, so I have no place to give random white dude opinion.

Removal all barriers.

No more "men" and "women" sports.

No more "weight classes".

Everyone should compete in the same arena.

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I think that it's a very minor issue where people tend to feign concern for one party as a justification for their bigotry towards another party.

Ftr I think that the easiest solution is for people to compete with others of their biological sex and not their gender. Forgive me for any ignorance, but I've been told repeatedly that sex and gender are two different things. So I'm not sure why it has to be any more complicated than that.

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Group people by testosterone level instead of gender, whether they be cis, trans or intersex.

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shadowsword87 posted...

A lot of sports is about becoming the best version of yourself, so someone coming along and doing better because of something unrelated to their training, is kind of s***ty.

i mean if you don't like that maybe sports isn't for you. people are born with different bodies, it's not like it's just training

shadowsword87 posted...

You get a lot of MtF trans people who go to the other category, and then start crushing

no you don't

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ForteEXE3850 posted...

Removal all barriers.

No more "men" and "women" sports.

No more "weight classes".

Everyone should compete in the same arena.

KUMITE!!!

https://youtu.be/gUNV_2AP7A8

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If you think about the total percentage of trans athletes it becomes blatantly apparent that it's really more about being a button issue people can partisan over and not actually care about the sport itself.

So you have 1 additional adversary in your quest to the gold medal... and they coincidentally beat you and you take silver... ... you got a silver medal at the olympics, you're already the best

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shadowsword87 posted...

A lot of sports is about becoming the best version of yourself, so someone coming along and doing better because of something unrelated to their training, is kind of s***ty.

The thing is, that happens all the time. The fact of the matter is that, if everyone in the world went through exactly the same training as the average Olympic athlete, the existing caste of Olympic athletes would still outperform the vast majority of people because they've been handpicked for having greater innate abilities than their peers (otherwise the training resources wouldn't have been expended on them). If a 5'6" guy and a 6'6" guy grow up playing basketball together, the taller dude stands a much greater chance of being NBA-worthy despite them having the same experiences. And that's even without considering the role that wealth plays in improving the quality of training an athlete can receive, completely independent of the effort they put forth.

Yes, it's unfair to lose to somebody who's just inherently better than you, rather than somebody that put in more effort than you, but really, that's just how most of life works. Some people are just innately stronger, or more talented, or better-looking. The exact same logic used to criticize trans athletes for competing alongside their target sex can be used to criticize people that are good at music pursuing careers as musicians.

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adjl posted...

The thing is, that happens all the time. The fact of the matter is that, if everyone in the world went through exactly the same training as the average Olympic athlete, the existing caste of Olympic athletes would still outperform the vast majority of people because they've been handpicked for having greater innate abilities than their peers (otherwise the training resources wouldn't have been expended on them). If a 5'6" guy and a 6'6" guy grow up playing basketball together, the taller dude stands a much greater chance of being NBA-worthy despite them having the same experiences. And that's even without considering the role that wealth plays in improving the quality of training an athlete can receive, completely independent of the effort they put forth.

Yes, it's unfair to lose to somebody who's just inherently better than you, rather than somebody that put in more effort than you, but really, that's just how most of life works. Some people are just innately stronger, or more talented, or better-looking. The exact same logic used to criticize trans athletes for competing alongside their target sex can be used to criticize people that are good at music pursuing careers as musicians.

We do also draw the line at performance enhancing drugs (officially at least, I'm sure there's been more than a few blind eyes).

it's an issue that is complicated by people starting hormones at different ages. If she starts hormones young enough, there is absolutely no significant difference in athletic development when compared to their cis counterparts. A lot of lawmakers are pushing to make it difficult for young people to begin hormones, and to an extent have succeeded.

Beginning hormones post puberty does not change things like skeletal structure, this is true (with the exception that one trans woman has found her hips have tilted in a way similar to cis women's over her 30 years on hormones). Bone density and muscular abilities are severely affected, and that effect only grows overtime. I personally believe that they make it difficult for kids to obtain hormones, because this group fits the narrative that trans athletes don't belong easier.

If we were to homogenize the human body into two types (which above posts have already covered how that would be a broad generalization), then we can say males would be a muscle car, while females would be a sedan. Hormones post puberty for trans women is like taking out the muscle car engine replacing it with the sedan engine. Sure the outside is a muscle car, but not as tough. The extra weight also means the sedan motor(heart) doesn't operate as efficiently and has to work harder to accomplish the same tasks.

As far as a separate league goes, separate but equal doesn't really work. Women's athletes are already on ESPN 3 - 6. I would expect a trans league to run at 3:00 am on ESPN 9 after bowling reruns. That's assuming there is even enough trans athletes to form a league. I also have doubts a separate league would make scholarships available a the college and HS level as well.

shadowsword87 posted...

We do also draw the line at performance enhancing drugs (officially at least, I'm sure there's been more than a few blind eyes).

And a few other illegal personal enhancement methods. That hasn't stopped coaches and athletes from seeing just how much enhancement they can squeeze in without crossing the line into illegality, like red cell doping vs. high-altitude training. In truth, those lines are pretty arbitrary, since there will always be the potential for certain athletes to end up with unfair advantages over others due to the opportunities they have, even just looking at something as simple as their diet when they're growing up (it will never be illegal for athletes to have never missed a meal in their life, yet lacking that privilege disadvantages many athletes).

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adjl posted...

(it will never be illegal for athletes to have never missed a meal in their life, yet lacking that privilege disadvantages many athletes).

real talk, i think chess tournaments should be segregated by childhood socioeconomic status

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PunishedOni posted...

real talk, i think chess tournaments should be segregated by childhood socioeconomic status

With sub-leagues for how much of their diet consisted of fish.

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PunishedOni posted...

1. sports are never going to be 'fair' in this sense because everyone has a different body.
2. this is basically banning them from professional sports -- there aren't enough trans people interested in sports to make this work

1. but there is men and womens sports, to make it more fair
2. okay? There is no professional mens softball league, there is no (serious) womens football league, thats just how it is

Arent baseball and softball essentially the same sport?

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MICHALECOLE posted...

but there is men and womens sports, to make it more fair

yeah, you can draw lines in different places to divide up sports into leagues. you can't do the line "women except for the ones that I don't think should count", though, because that's bigoted

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ForteEXE3850 posted...

Removal all barriers.

No more "men" and "women" sports.

No more "weight classes".

Everyone should compete in the same arena.

Really the only solution to this "problem"

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PunishedOni posted...

yeah, you can draw lines in different places to divide up sports into leagues. you can't do the line "women except for the ones that I don't think should count", though, because that's bigoted

Its not bigoted to want there to be fairness in sports. Im not taking anybodys rights away from anybody, Im saying give them their own league.

fallon fox is the best argument for this conversation. Even though she lost once, the other six fights she had she fucking murdered those women.

its just not fair for the other women. And Im sure trans men who were born women and had the surgery dont want to compete against natural men

MICHALECOLE posted...

And Im sure trans men who were born women and had the surgery dont want to compete against natural men

yes they do. why do cis people say shit like this instead of just researching anything. fuck off

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Are there any professional male trans athletes? in any sport?

mtfs are super broken at the highschool and college level since the gulf between men and women is so large at brackets and the two year prohibition from competing does not mitigate the superior gains the dude got before transitioning.

It is slightly less broken at the professional level, since everyone is taking the T anyways, so most of the women are glorified transexuals themselves ( I mean, look at Chris Cyborg for crying out loud), but even then they still are able to out compete most natural women. Pretty much why everyone hates them, they can't compete against the dudes, so the lop off thier weenie and now f with the women's brackets. There is very little honor in thier victories.

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Idk there are so many examples of outliers... girls beating entire male wrestling teams in high school, intersex athletes being denied the chance to participate, biological women with higher than 'normal' testosterone levels... Sports seems like it always has bizarre gatekeeping. It's hard for me to relate because I'd never ever care about being 'the best at running'. I almost feel like gender barriers should be removed wherever possible.

I don't like the language people use surrounding trans athletes, and it makes it really difficult to talk about when people are dog piling with banal insulting language.

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PunishedOni posted...

yes they do. why do cis people say shit like this instead of just researching anything. fuck off

I agree, weird assumption.

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What if they just did different leagues based on weight or average speed/strength? Those things are all measurable.

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Lokarin posted...

If you think about the total percentage of trans athletes it becomes blatantly apparent that it's really more about being a button issue people can partisan over and not actually care about the sport itself.

So you have 1 additional adversary in your quest to the gold medal... and they coincidentally beat you and you take silver... ... you got a silver medal at the olympics, you're already the best

I also agree with this take. I am immediately distrustful of people like Rogan and Tulsi Gabbard who simply seem to use it as a 'really important talking point' or political point, when they aren't even peripheral to the issue (well, Joe is a little closer, as an MMA judge). I think it's worth discussing, but the loaded language they use overinflates the effect of trans athletes winning against other athletes. In doing this they simply score a popularity point with the vast amount of society that doesn't understand trans people.

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Mead posted...

What if they just did different leagues based on weight or average speed/strength? Those things are all measurable.

That makes sense to me!

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It seems like letting them play is the best way to solve the issue, the problem now is low data. We spend some time letting people play and we get data on what things are really like. If it is a problem then we can just roll it back.


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MICHALECOLE posted...

Are there any professional male trans athletes? in any sport?

Most notable is at the HS level. He has won the state championship multiple years competing in the women's league.

The guy acting like men fake transitioning so they can dominate female competition... wow that's some smoothbrain shit. Why would anyone do something like that which isn't the right thing for them instead of just training hard

It's almost like some people are trans, and some of those people enjoy sports, just like cis people

DrPrimemaster posted...

It seems like letting them play is the best way to solve the issue, the problem now is low data. We spend some time letting people play and we get data on what things are really like. If it is a problem then we can just roll it back.

Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics since 04. 17 years worth of data and zero trans gold medalist should be pretty clear it isn't really an issue.

Are men stronger than women? Do men go through a different puberty than women do? Does cutting your balls off after puberty remove the physiological developments that have already taken place?

Mind that there are right answers to these questions and these are answers that some people will deny

That being said, go ahead and let trans women compete with birth women. I'm not a woman and I'm not an Olympic level athlete. I have literally nothing to lose. But don't come crying to me when there are zero birth women in sports in 10 years
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awesome999 posted...

Are men stronger than women?

in a very general sense sure but there are plenty of women that are stronger than your average man

really though your overall post just makes me thing that youre way too upset about the issue and likely pretty bigoted about it

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don't come crying to me if my stupid sensationalized prediction that has no basis in reality comes to fruition

IronBornCorps posted...

Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics since 04. 17 years worth of data and zero trans gold medalist should be pretty clear it isn't really an issue.

The big concern is in high school sports, or at least that is where I think the concern should be.

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IronBornCorps posted...

Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics since 04. 17 years worth of data and zero trans gold medalist should be pretty clear it isn't really an issue.

This. It's pretty much a non-issue virtue signal of the right. There are few trans people in the general population, and even fewer trans athletes, and even then there are plenty of cis women that can compete against the average male sex so their "advantage" is not even guaranteed.

Just something to get the right wing base riled up.

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DrPrimemaster posted...

The big concern is in high school sports, or at least that is where I think the concern should be.

if anything there is way too much concern surrounding school sports in general

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CoorsLight posted...

The guy acting like men fake transitioning so they can dominate female competition... wow that's some smoothbrain shit. Why would anyone do something like that which isn't the right thing for them instead of just training hard

It's almost like some people are trans, and some of those people enjoy sports, just like cis people

A big part of certain transphobic narratives seems to be that trans individuals don't really "exist". It's the same as the bathroom outrage. A big TERF thinking point.

Essentially that all trans individuals have some kind of ulterior motive to transitioning.

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