Current Events > Roguelikes are just grinding by a different name

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm sorta hot taking with that title, and I get the distinction of procedural generation and randomness preventing things from feeling samey in the way that a lot video game grinds do, but bear with me.

I'm playing Star Renegades now and I like it, it has a lot of neat ideas. But when one of my runs ends, I feel like I've lost mainly because the game is structured not to let me win on an early run, rather than because I've done something wrong. At that point, just stick a recommended level on things and let me grind at my own pace rather than having to start the whole process over, you know?
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roguelinks really bore me. I can't get why anyone likes em

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Proper roguelikes dont require farming or scumming such as nethack or angband
The trash that is falsely advertised as roguelikes can do whatever it wants
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Some are better than others in this regard. Dead Cells never feels like a run is totally impossible, you just dodge everything and you can win if you're good enough. Cadence of Hyrule is another good one. Binding of Isaac, on the otherhand, can be a slog without good upgrades.

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i did beat binding of isaac on my second run, so i think it did the win-an-early-run thing you mentioned right.

i recently tried the shiren game for the snes and it felt like my progress and potential to win were resultant of my knowledge of the systems in play, and i really liked that. it got me to experiment. it also has ridiculous amounts of quality of life so i enjoyed it for its design sensibilities as well. i think i need to check out more roguelikes.
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Yeah, I think that this game was poorly designed. It's a shame

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Mostly roguelites but yeah. Any rl that carries over some sort of progress into the next run will have some grinding to it.
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Balrog0 posted...

Yeah, I think that this game was poorly designed. It's a shame

I wouldn't go that far, it's just trying to do too much and would've benefited from paring down some systems.

I guess that's a symptom of poor design, but I want to be nice to it because I really do like some of those systems.
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I've never seen the appeal of games that seem designed to be frustrating.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

Binding of Isaac, on the otherhand, can be a slog without good upgrades.

I'd disagree. The bullet hell kind of design means that skill can carry you pretty hard. Back when I played it a shitload, I was always completing runs even if I got crappy items.

pfh1001 posted...

I've never seen the appeal of games that seem designed to be frustrating.

They're not designed to be frustrating, just difficult.

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binding of isaac was rad to play on a snes controller and i had a usb plug for mine omg

i also played a lot of super meat boy at that time
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nothanks1 posted...

Proper roguelikes dont require farming or scumming such as nethack or angband
The trash that is falsely advertised as roguelikes can do whatever it wants

This sounds right, there's a reason why there's a difference between rogue LIKE and rogue LITE. A lot of what most people are talking about in this topic are rogue LITE. Being a roguelike in general is more fun to me. But roguelites have great games in them like Dead Cells and Hades.

Antifar posted...

I'm playing Star Renegades now and I like it, it has a lot of neat ideas. But when one of my runs ends, I feel like I've lost mainly because the game is structured not to let me win on an early run, rather than because I've done something wrong. At that point, just stick a recommended level on things and let me grind at my own pace rather than having to start the whole process over, you know?

But I find it funny that you call Star Renegades grindy because it's a freaking roguelite RPG. RPGs in general are grindy. I don't think it has to do with it being roguelite. I guess the fact you lose all your progress highlights how grindy rpgs are in general.

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Antifar posted...

I wouldn't go that far, it's just trying to do too much and would've benefited from paring down some systems.

I guess that's a symptom of poor design, but I want to be nice to it because I really do like some of those systems.

Me too. I don't think the end product is very good though. It really does feel like the roguelite elements are kind of pasted on, rather than incorporated into it. I still got some fun out of it, but I find it disappointing overall.

I was pretty hyped for it before it released though. High expectations

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pegusus123456 posted...

They're not designed to be frustrating, just difficult.

Same thing to me.