Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) R3D16: Cloud vs Dresden (Mid)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to Mountain Time

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

Results/Discussion: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78971300

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
Cloud Bright (Final Fantasy)


vs

Harry Dresden (The Dresden Files)


@ZeeksFire

FIGHT

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Cloud.

Harry runs out of spellcasts after a couple spells. For anyone doubting, reference the latest book where he spellslings willy nilly but it's explicitly listed as a temporary powerup and once it runs out he has like, two spells' worth of juice. Cloud has a short lasting Shield spell that makes him completely invulnerable to damage. The way this fight plays out is Cloud casts that, rushes in while Dresden can't hurt him at all, gets into melee range, and savagely butchers him because there's absolutely nothing he can do against a swordsman that slices apart whole buildings and kills skyscraper sized foes.

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Cloud... Bright? (not a vote).

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big stick



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Lolo_Guru posted...

Cloud... Bright? (not a vote).

y'know, this isn't the first time I've made this mistake.

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I think it's vastly closer than you think Kanzaris. You are treating it along the lines of the video games, where everyone stands still. (Also shield is a very scrub argument). Let's think of the vulnerabilities of cloud in relations to this fight.

1 - Cloud is a mental scrub. I expect sometime during the fight, due to stress and accident, a soulgaze would occur, which is rather messed up for both sides, but it'd mess with Cloud a lot more.

2 - Defensive magics. Harry's go to for defensive magics are using a shield, relying on ice and perfect balance on said ice, which gives better mobility than cloud on said ice.

3 - The shield argument. There is one spell that dresden uses a fair amount that would ignore shield entirely. Forzare. (force) magical, non-elemental (and is available as a one shot on his staff with 77x the base version of his rings in an early book.

The easiest way i could see harry win is using some of the tricks that occurred in Changes - using a fogbank to hide himself, while preparring his answer. (I'd say the best answer would be removal of cloud by creating portal, shoving him in and closing portal)

As is, it's an uphill battle, but having a location being uphill and uneven would be vastly better for Dresden in the situation.

My dude, have you seen Cloud fight? He's not going to be bothered by ice of all things. Dude spends his time airborne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0KA53cKNnI

Maybe a look at his fighting style is in order here. Look at this and tell me 'oh no slippery ice' matters at all to him. This also showcases just how little I think a Soulgaze matters here. There's no more nightmarish scenario for Cloud than 'holy SHIT, Sephiroth is back and toying with me' and he still pulls through. His mental isn't that fragile after he's done overcoming his traumas in the Lifestream.

And yes, Forzare could pierce Shield, but that still leaves Harry with only a singular option and nothing else, and he doesn't have time to switch around. Cloud's super fast and Harry traditionally has a terrible time with fast enemies, who are themselves way slower than Cloud.

EDIT: I think this bears repetition BTW, because while I find the idea of 'a soulgaze happens mid-combat' asinine, I want to really debunk this idea. Cloud falls into the heart of the planet, gets in direct contact with an overload of souls, faces his own traumas and failings, aka the things that hurt him most, and comes out of the experience better off and a more complete person. I don't think soulgazing Dresden is going to do anything to him. This is an actual fight, and one Dresden is woefully underequipped to handle. His wheelhouse is big slow enemies, not someone who moves faster than he can react to.

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oh yeah, and because it's relevant here

https://youtu.be/pyP18j7y1FA?t=481

Cloud literally facetanks a megaflare

Harry's Forzare is a lot of things, but it's not megaflare strong

Like how exactly is he gonna put Cloud down? Especially when you remember Cloud has curing materia at his disposal too. And you can't even argue 'noooo materia are noncanon', he equips them in multiple places in the franchise.

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Did i ever say materia are noncanon? Don't be a jerk on putting words in my mouth.

ZeeksFire posted...

Did i ever say materia are noncanon? Don't be a jerk on putting words in my mouth.

It was implied by 'shield is a very scrub argument'. Do you expect him to not use his tools? If not, why would it be a scrub argument to deploy a defense that makes him mostly invulnerable so he can close into his most comfortably striking range?

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Using blatant invincibility versus any other of the hundreds of other tools that cloud has, was the point i was making. I mean, you have his bike, various materia (including comparing summons how they work in the remake vs normal (I AM NOT COUNTING KOTR as a valid choice)). Also looking at the remake, cloud is vastly more on the ground, he is not an aerial fighter, barring some of his limits... although it does give a vastly more impressive view of his swordplay in there.

(We had that complaint on maxwell in the discussion topic just a bit ago, and I don't think cloud would be the person to lean on starting with invincibility (that's a player designation), he'd go in with the sword.)

Will wait for more arguments. Cloud destroys books 1-3 Dresden, which is as far as I got in the series, but I think Dresden powers up significantly later?
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ZeeksFire posted...

Using blatant invincibility versus any other of the hundreds of other tools that cloud has, was the point i was making. I mean, you have his bike, various materia (including comparing summons how they work in the remake vs normal (I AM NOT COUNTING KOTR as a valid choice)). Also looking at the remake, cloud is vastly more on the ground, he is not an aerial fighter, barring some of his limits... although it does give a vastly more impressive view of his swordplay in there.

(We had that complaint on maxwell in the discussion topic just a bit ago, and I don't think cloud would be the person to lean on starting with invincibility (that's a player designation), he'd go in with the sword.)

The remake is irrelevant. Advent Children is, at the moment, Cloud at his peak of power. Why would you use something that doesn't showcase him at his strongest?

And sure, let's talk all his other tools then -- Cloud has Haste, which lets him go at double speed. He has Shell, which halves the damage he takes, and Dragon Force, which doubles his magic defense (these stack with each other). So he 's taking a quarter of the damage from anything that hits him. He has Bad Breath, which inflicts, among other things, blindness, silence, mini and frog at once, making fighting impossible. He has Magic Hammer, which drains MP -- refer to the whole 'Harry's casting stamina fucking blows' bit here in case you're wondering why this matters. And he is, of course, a massive force in a melee. Refer to the whole 'cuts his way through skyscrapers' bit up above. He has all the tools to counter Harry and I don't even think he needs them in the first place considering none of Harry's attacks are at all close to the level of things he's survived unscathed. I don't really see how he loses it, he's just on a different tier of power compared to his opponent.

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cloud was nominated as the "most recognizable" relevant video game character. this is not Advent Children Cloud

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Drakeryn posted...

Will wait for more arguments. Cloud destroys books 1-3 Dresden, which is as far as I got in the series, but I think Dresden powers up significantly later?

He does power up significantly. Here's an excerpt showing his current power level (it's the first bit, not the second):

On an ordinary night, the gale that my spell conjured would have been able to toss furniture around a room.

Tonight, I could have tossed furniture trucks.

Why am I pointing this out? Because the above quote comes from the latest book, while Harry is in very special circumstances. Like, this level of special:

Suddenly I was aware of the creatures of Winter beneath my command, racing to join us. The temperature around us abruptly plummeted. White winter frost began to crackle across the face of the Bean, and Mab shuddered and arched her back, her eyes closing, as the breath of Winter itself gathered around us. White mist began to thicken the grey haze of the city. The air suddenly became close, intimate, as the cloud of cold vapor enveloped the cohort.

The faemetal weapons of the Sidhe began to creak and moan as deathly frost formed upon them.

And I realized that I could suddenly see no farther than maybe fifteen feet, tops.

We wont be able to see them coming, I said in a low voice.

Irrelevant, Mab replied.

In the shadows of the Bean behind us gathered the malks and Black Dogs, the rake and the ogre, the gnomes and double dozens of the viciously mischievous Little Folk of Winter.

Before us, the Sidhe abruptly began to chant and sing, gesturing with their hands as they did. Flickers of light glittered over the cohort in a dome. Shapes and sigils, runes and formulae, crackled briefly in the air, as two hundred sorcerers gathered their power from the hyperenergetic air.

What the hell? I held up my staff, opening the channels to the energy storage structures inside, and drew that energy down into it. The task normally took an hour of intense concentration and exhausting effort, when I had to provide the energy for the staff myself. With the air gone mad with power, the staff charged in seconds, which should not have been possible, not without the excess energy overflowing into waste heat and burning the thing to a crisp.

Instead, it simply let out a low hum, the runes carved into glowing green-gold, and the faint, excellent scent of scorched wood edged the night.

But the problem is his stamina still sucks. When that juice runs out and he's left with just his own charge, he manages to cast exactly three spells -- across an entire pitched large scale battle, no less. One's an explicitly economical invisibility spell, one's a shield, and one's a ritual binding. Earlier, when he's running on a lesser magical charge in the air, he still gets winded after a few spells in quick succession, too. The point being, we know around how hard he can hit, and we know how often he can do so, and the answer is 'not very'. It's a bad matchup vs someone who doesn't quit, is very resilient, and very much stronger to boot.

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NFUN posted...

cloud was nominated as the "most recognizable" relevant video game character. this is not Advent Children Cloud

Nonsense. It's still the same character. Arbitrary variance in when a character is represented is asinine. Next you'll say we have to abide by what super deformed graphics show. This isn't a case like say, Luke's where using EU material makes no sense because it's no longer canonical. AC is explicitly part of the canon of FF7, and it's Cloud at his strongest. The argument used with the Doomslayer that it's material released since he was nominated doesn't apply either, the movie's been out for ages.

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yeah it's pretty silly to ban AC Cloud considering (1) the movie was already out and (2) AC Cloud is still clearly mid, it's not a case where later material accidentally makes the character out of tier

regardless I'm going Cloud - I think Dresden's stamina issues are going to screw him against a guy with plenty of healing magic
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NFUN posted...

cloud was nominated as the "most recognizable" relevant video game character. this is not Advent Children Cloud

I thought he was Cloud Bright, though?
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Cloud

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Cloud

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