Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) R3D13: Doomslayer vs Jack Hawksmoore (High)

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Welcome to Mountain Time

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

Results/Discussion: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78971300

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
The Doomslayer (DOOM 2016)


vs

Jack Hawksmoore (The Authority)


@scarletspeed7 @KanzarisKelshen

FIGHT

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Shouldn't this be medium tier

Coulda sworn the Slayer was in mid, not high, and it was a whole thing in his last match

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Doomslayer

Eternal made him crazy busted. That and well this is a guy who made Hell itself his bitch. I am pretty sure he can handle a city (that was this guy's deal right?) going against him with ease.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Shouldn't this be medium tier

Coulda sworn the Slayer was in mid, not high, and it was a whole thing in his last match

this is, in fact, mid

Would Doomslayer survive a pretty thorough sneak attack? He's be able to destroy the city with ease if he realized he needed to, but he needs to figure that out first

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NFUN posted...

this is, in fact, mid

Would Doomslayer survive a pretty thorough sneak attack? He's be able to destroy the city with ease if he realized he needed to, but he needs to figure that out first

Yes. The Praetor Armor is pretty much indestructible and Doomguy launched himself out of an orbital cannon through a wall and it didn't even slow him down. I don't think Jack has anything that can stop him. Really Doomslayer belongs in high tier at minimum after the wacky shit Eternal gave him and how all WADs for DOOM are canon so you have all that craziness you could also give him.

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NFUN posted...

this is, in fact, mid

Would Doomslayer survive a pretty thorough sneak attack? He's be able to destroy the city with ease if he realized he needed to, but he needs to figure that out first

I can't imagine the sneak attack is gonna be an issue. If we assume this is neutral-ish terrain, then there's a city and it has cameras. VEGA is with him and there's no chance modern day tech even takes him a picosecond to crack. He should be able to get visuals on Jack and track him pretty closely, and then pick the engagement.

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Pirateking2000 posted...

Yes. The Praetor Armor is pretty much indestructible and Doomguy launched himself out of an orbital cannon through a wall and it didn't even slow him down. I don't think Jack has anything that can stop him. Really Doomslayer belongs in high tier at minimum after the wacky shit Eternal gave him and how all WADs for DOOM are canon so you have all that craziness you could also give him.

reminder that this is pre-Eternal Doomguy and I even explicitly pointed that out by specifying he's from DOOM 2016 in the opening post

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I can't imagine the sneak attack is gonna be an issue. If we assume this is neutral-ish terrain, then there's a city and it has cameras. VEGA is with him and there's no chance modern day tech even takes him a picosecond to crack. He should be able to get visuals on Jack and track him pretty closely, and then pick the engagement.

It's Jack. It's Jack's city by virtue of him being in it. I have to imagine he has a way to trivially negate this (additionally, he'd know where Doomguy is far more intuitively and would absolutely be able to set the terms of the fight as soon as he entered the city)

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NFUN posted...

reminder that this is pre-Eternal Doomguy and I even explicitly pointed that out by specifying he's from DOOM 2016 in the opening post

It's Jack. It's Jack's city by virtue of him being in it. I have to imagine he has a way to trivially negate this (additionally, he'd know where Doomguy is far more intuitively and would absolutely be able to set the terms of the fight as soon as he entered the city)

Being Pre Eternal Doomguy doesn't mean anything. He is just as strong in 2016 DOOM as he is in Eternal since he is the same guy from the original DOOM anyway and became super broken during the time between DOOM 64 and 2016

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wonder if Jack can convince the cameras not to talk to Doomguy

I know the reverse happened (because I saw it in a respect thread) - Jack comes across a crime scene, he attempts to query the TV about what it saw, the TV refuses to divulge any info. unfortunately I don't have any details on how that happened

even if Doomguy does crack all the cameras, I think Jack still has the advantage in setting the terms of the engagement because his knowledge is way more expansive. underground passages, sewers, anywhere not under direct camera view. also he's probably less dependent on line of sight for initiating combat
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It's Jack. It's Jack's city by virtue of him being in it. I have to imagine he has a way to trivially negate this (additionally, he'd know where Doomguy is far more intuitively and would absolutely be able to set the terms of the fight as soon as he entered the city)

Such as? Because Jack scales in power based on the city he's in. VEGA is always VEGA, an AI that is effectively a god of technology. It's kind of like what'd happen if Jack and the Slayer met face to face, but writ techy: conceptual advantages vs sheer brute force, except arguably even more lopsided in VEGA's favor than it is for the Slayer because the lore is so comically strong for him. Using just Doom 2016 lore, VEGA runs Mars in every single way possible, with no oversight nor control save his own directives. His processing power is so massive, his core runs hotter than the sun and studying his functionality is a field unto itself. And if we consider Doom Eternal, well, he created the interdimensional species that set all of the events of the Doom series into motion by empowering Hell in the first place, as their actual, literal god.

I would legitimately consider VEGA more powerful than the Slayer in their respective arenas, and I'm as big a fanboy of the Slayer as they come. Jack has no chance whatsoever in neutral conditions against him.

EDIT: And to be clear, yes, Jack can strike from underground still and get an ambush. The problem is this voids the one way he has to win vs the Slayer, which is basically caving the whole city in on his head. In a head to head match he gets ripped and torn apart.

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i'm not particularly versed in regards to Jack's powers, but there are many solutions to counter the cameras regardless of how powerful vega is, and they're not particularly complex. vega can deal with the city's technology, jack deals with the actual fucking city

edit: oh you wanted examples of how to counter the hacking. rocks, to start. they'd probably do the job (as, little known fact, even very powerful advanced ai-enhanced cameras don't work if they're fucking broken)

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NFUN posted...

did you know cameras don't work if they are broken? like, i'm not particularly versed in regards to Jack's powers, but there are many solutions to counter the cameras regardless of how powerful vega is, and they're not particularly complex. vega can deal with the city's technology, jack deals with the actual fucking city

Did you know Jack doesn't know what VEGA can do? It doesn't matter if he has ways to counter if he doesn't know he has to do so. This is what we in the business call 'failing Occam's Razor' -- VEGA is just doing its default thing here, while Jack has to deviate from a default (which would be scanning and trying to make a play against the Slayer, without knowing he himself is being spied on) to counter. One of these is less probable than the other. Fundamentally, this is why I think the Slayer wins. Jack can defeat him, but the path to victory (collapsing the city on his head) is pretty antithetical to what he does. It's a poor king that burns his city to the ground to defeat his enemies, indeed.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Such as? Because Jack scales in power based on the city he's in. VEGA is always VEGA, an AI that is effectively a god of technology. It's kind of like what'd happen if Jack and the Slayer met face to face, but writ techy: conceptual advantages vs sheer brute force, except arguably even more lopsided in VEGA's favor than it is for the Slayer because the lore is so comically strong for him. Using just Doom 2016 lore, VEGA runs Mars in every single way possible, with no oversight nor control save his own directives. His processing power is so massive, his core runs hotter than the sun and studying his functionality is a field unto itself. And if we consider Doom Eternal, well, he created the interdimensional species that set all of the events of the Doom series into motion by empowering Hell in the first place, as their actual, literal god.

I would legitimately consider VEGA more powerful than the Slayer in their respective arenas, and I'm as big a fanboy of the Slayer as they come. Jack has no chance whatsoever in neutral conditions against him.

EDIT: And to be clear, yes, Jack can strike from underground still and get an ambush. The problem is this voids the one way he has to win vs the Slayer, which is basically caving the whole city in on his head. In a head to head match he gets ripped and torn apart.

Just dropping the city on him might not work either since for that occasion it wasn't just that but a ton of magic involved including that of the Makyrs. The main method of dealing with him that seems to work somewhat is to poof him somewhere else / ring him out. Even then he manages to come back eventually.

Either way this most likely plays out like a DOOM level. VEGA goes "This guy is here. I will mark his location for you." DOOM Guy tears his way there with some occasional assists from VEGA if required (though probably not necessary) and proceeds to win.

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It strongly seems to me that Jack would be able to figure something is up. It's still his city, and regardless of Vega's power, Jack's magic is of a kind that'll give him the tools to realize it

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Doomslayer might be able to track his opponent by hacking the cameras, but he actually has to go and do that, meanwhile Jack just knows where he is and what he's doing the moment he enters the city. I don't see Doomslayer being able to control how this battle goes that way.

No idea if he's strong enough to RIP AND TEAR his way through the city but Jack definitely isn't just going to sit around while his cameras get hacked.

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Jack Hawksmoor beat the Avengers. Jack. Sits in the Carrier while Los Angeles whomps.

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Hawksmoor doesn't need cameras, he can see through any given window in a city

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going Jack here, Doomguy trying to hack or destroy the city is just going to be good incentive to bury him under several tons of rock immediately

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Several tons of rock isn't going to stop the Doomslayer. Try maybe three or four orders of magnitude higher. The dude is so resilient to blunt force impacts all it's likely to do is piss him off, and his weaponry can cut him a way out. Jack has to do some major sacrificial plays to win, and I don't think he will.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Several tons of rock isn't going to stop the Doomslayer. Try maybe three or four orders of magnitude higher

good thing that's how heavy buildings are

Jack

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Ah yes, buildings

that thing the Doomslayer smashes through

oh wait no, he smashes through space stations instead, while being shot from a cannon

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Hawksmoor. Doesn't really need to even bury Doomguy, he can phase him into the ground and leave him there

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I feel like the big question is how quickly Jack escalates.

A lot of Jack's attacks are not going to be effective here. He does a lot of hand-to-hand combat; he also does stuff like smashing enemies with pieces of road, or collapsing the building they're in, or morphing the pavement into fists to punch people.

But on the high end, Jack can just collapse the entire city into Doomslayer, or turn the entire thing into a golem to fight him. I don't think that's his immediate go-to, any more than Doomslayer is going to enter this match like "burn down the city lolol," but if we end up with a prolonged standoff, perhaps.
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People are seriously underselling Doomguy. This is someone who casually punches apart chains capable of holding down titans and based on the WADs beat down eldritch gods. Not to mention the Icon of Sin which is a reality warping universe ender. Jack isn't going to stop him.

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