Current Events > Did you guys agree with Joel's choice? *end spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I feel like yes. But I think if we knew that an actual cure would be developed then he's wrong

But there was no chance to know and that point fuck it
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I don't know who Joel is or what game were talking about.
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Joel was a bro.
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Even a cure is sort of pointless. I mean at that point, you don't have the resources to mass produce and/or mass distribute.

A cure would have simply led to a power struggle between the fireflies and the remnants of the government. True containment never seemed like a real possibility.
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Geez Joel!!
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I think when you say there are spoilers but don't say what you're spoiling, this counts as unmarked spoilers. At least I got modded for it a couple years ago.

But in TLoU, I would have done exactly what Joel did.
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Nah. Seems pretty unambiguous to me.
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DevsBro posted...

I think when you say there are spoilers but don't say what you're spoiling, this counts as unmarked spoilers. At least I got modded for it a couple years ago.

But in TLoU, I would have done exactly what Joel did.

I mean I said end spoilers and literally barely gave anything away. So vague intentionally
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Only because the fireflies were villains. If they were clear cut good people who've been the main allies in the beginning trying to save the world then no because Ellie herself already chose it.
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If Ellie wanted to do it, then no.

If she hadn't known what would have happened to her, then yeah.
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It's absolutely hilarious, a little bit disturbing and facinating for psychology the way TLOU fans bend over backwards to refuse to admit Joel did a bad thing.


The entire point was that what he was doing was evil and selfish. And people make up their own fan-fiction to justify it.
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StarReaper13 posted...

If Ellie wanted to do it, then no.

If she hadn't known what would have happened to her, then yeah.

Joel literally lied to her because she wanted to do it.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

It's absolutely hilarious, a little bit disturbing and facinating for psychology the way TLOU fans bend over backwards to refuse to admit Joel did a bad thing.


The entire point was that what he was doing was evil and selfish. And people make up their own fan-fiction to justify it.

I'm sorry, a 15 year old girl who suffers the trauma of living in that environment cannot give an informed decision when told by a radicalist group that she can save humanity when in fact they were documented fuccbois who botched experimental surgeries on people with similar resistances.

Ellie wasn't unique and any sort of treatment or cure theoretically derived from her would have been used for geopolitical gain and would not benefit humanity at large. That's a huge IF considering a cure was unlikely anyway.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

It's absolutely hilarious, a little bit disturbing and facinating for psychology the way TLOU fans bend over backwards to refuse to admit Joel did a bad thing.


The entire point was that what he was doing was evil and selfish. And people make up their own fan-fiction to justify it.

*rolls eyes*

We get its wrong what he did. But it's not so black and white. He had a human connection with someone. A choice of losing someone very important to you over something that's iffy is a huge moral choice for anyone alive
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Joel literally lied to her because she wanted to do it.

I suggest you read up on medical/bioethics regarding informed consent and how the coercive manner the fireflies acted literally precludes one from making a rationally informed decision.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

Ellie wasn't unique and any sort of treatment or cure theoretically derived from her would have been used for geopolitical gain and would not benefit humanity at large. That's a huge IF considering a cure was unlikely anyway.

I mean he wasn't thinking of it in that regard, he was thinking about himself and Ellie in the sense of how:

darkprince45 posted...

He had a human connection with someone. A choice of losing very important to you over something that's iffy is a huge moral choice for anyone alive

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Joel was right

There are more immune people, Ellie wasn't the only one. This wasn't their first attempt at a cure either, and all previous attempts had ended with the immune person dead.

It might have produced a cure but odds are it wouldn't, and a cure wouldn't do much anyway.
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It's absolutely hilarious, a little bit disturbing and facinating for psychology the way TLOU fans bend over backwards to refuse to admit Joel did a bad thing.


The entire point was that what he was doing was evil and selfish. And people make up their own fan-fiction to justify it.

Joel absolutely did a bad thing. Lots of them. Joel betrayed everyone, including Ellie, including the player, including everyone.

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have done the same thing. It doesn't even matter how certain they are that they could come up with a vaccine or even just make all the infected suddenly go poof.

Plus there are a lot of thematic reasons he had to choose what he did.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

I'm sorry, a 15 year old girl who suffers the trauma of living in that environment cannot give an informed decision when told by a radicalist group that she can save humanity when in fact they were documented fuccbois who botched experimental surgeries on people with similar resistances.

No there's not.

What are you on about?

Soviet_Poland posted...

Ellie wasn't unique and any sort of treatment or cure theoretically derived from her would have been used for geopolitical gain and would not benefit humanity at large. That's a huge IF considering a cure was unlikely anyway.

Ellie was unique. Seriously this is what I mean, this is pure fan-fiction just to justify Joel's murder spree

darkprince45 posted...

We get its wrong what he did. But it's not so black and white. He had a human connection with someone.

So did all the people he murdered

Soviet_Poland posted...

I suggest you read up on medical/bioethics regarding informed consent and how the coercive manner the fireflies acted literally precludes one from making a rationally informed decision.

It's still her decision dude, so much so that Joel flat out has to lie to her to get to go along with no doing it.

You're talking about "the coercive manner the fireflies acted literally precludes one from making a rationally informed decision." when the guy you're defending is a murderer who lied to her to force her to do what he wants her to do for his own selfish reasons.

It's fucked up.

Joel's a dick man. That was the point of the ending. Joel goes evil and fucks the world that fucked him
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There are more immune people, Ellie wasn't the only one. This wasn't their first attempt at a cure either, and all previous attempts had ended with the immune person dead.

Nope. There were other people they experimented on, but none were immune.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

It's absolutely hilarious, a little bit disturbing and facinating for psychology the way TLOU fans bend over backwards to refuse to admit Joel did a bad thing.

It's a bit irritating that many of them try to simplify the situation with "the Fireflies would've failed to make the cure anyway" or something similar, because that reduces the weight of Joel's decision. There were no hints in the story towards the procedure failing, they had utmost faith in it and since Joel isn't a doctor he had no basis from which to object.

Joel's decision was understandable, especially given the fact that the Fireflies didn't ask for Ellie's consent. But it's supposed to be controversial too. There's supposed to be a good chance that he screwed over society and future generations just to save one innocent person.

Sojy posted...

Joel's decision was understandable,

It was supposed to comprehensible. But evil, selfish and unjustified.

The way people defend it is kinda creepy. And explains a lot about soceity. I.E the support of Travyon Martin

Sojy posted...

especially given the fact that the Fireflies didn't ask for Ellie's consent. But it's supposed to be controversial too. There's supposed to be a good chance that he screwed over society and future generations just to save one innocent person.

Ellie was cool with it. She would be happy to die to save the world

She's still depressed from when her gal-pal died.
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There's supposed to be a good chance that he screwed over society and future generations just to save one innocent person.

I actually feel like the ending makes it pretty clear via cinematic cues and such that the world is on its way to real recovery, what with the lighting when they're looking out over Tommy's settlement and whatnot. Part 2 will probably change its mind about but Part 2 never needed to exist anyway. Not that it won't be a good game.
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It's pretty gray, but he did the right thing but murdering all the doctors was rather bad
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Joel did what any sane, passionate person would do in that situation. There was no way he was losing another daughter...and that's exactly what Ellie is to him at that point in the game.
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

It's pretty gray, but he did the right thing but murdering all the doctors was rather bad

It's not gray. It's black

He murdered a whole bunch of people and prevented a cure from being created against the will of Ellie for his own selfish reasons because he's bitter at the world and feels like a failure.

There was nothing white about his deision. It was meant to be a dark twist for the story.

Joel is not a hero, he never was a hero, he was never supposed to be a hero.

The fans refusal to take him off a hero pedastal and insistance on justifying everything he does is creepy but as I said fascinating.

I think it goes a long way into explaning the cult of personality figures we get like Trump or Charles Manson
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UnfairRepresent posted...

It's not gray. It's black

Seems pretty fucking gray to me. I'd say your insistence on making it black and white is childish.
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dave_is_slick posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

It's not gray. It's black

Seems pretty fucking gray to me. I'd say your insistence on making it black and white is childish.

How about instead going "ur childish" elaborate on what was white about his decision.


And he was never seen again
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UnfairRepresent posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

It's not gray. It's black

Seems pretty fucking gray to me. I'd say your insistence on making it black and white is childish.

How about instead going "ur childish" elaborate on what was white about his decision.


And he was never seen again

Saving someone he loves.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Saving someone he loves.

For selfish reasons, against her will, via lying to her and mass murder. Which results in the lack of a cure for a world threatening disease being developed.


There is nothing white about that.

The fact he loves Ellie and is angry at the world for the fact he always fails miserably to save the things he loves doesn't make his actions white. They're still evil and selfish
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

It's pretty gray, but he did the right thing but murdering all the doctors was rather bad

It's not gray. It's black

He murdered a whole bunch of people and prevented a cure from being created against the will of Ellie for his own selfish reasons because he's bitter at the world and feels like a failure.

There was nothing white about his deision. It was meant to be a dark twist for the story.

Joel is not a hero, he never was a hero, he was never supposed to be a hero.

The fans refusal to take him off a hero pedastal and insistance on justifying everything he does is creepy but as I said fascinating.

I think it goes a long way into explaning the cult of personality figures we get like Trump or Charles Manson

Saving Ellie was the right choice, the fireflies said no, they deserved what came to them, the nonfighters and/or doctors shouldn't have been hurt or killed and that is worse than letting Ellie go. I remember getting to that part and just starring at the screen not wanting to kill the last surgeon. Then I didn't shoot him and ended up shoving scissors in his face when I was wanting a handshake
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Saving Ellie was the right choice, the fireflies said no,

Ellie however would have said yes. Joel knows this and lies to her because of it.

The fireflies also let Joel live purely out of kindess and he repays them by murdering them.

They did not deserve to die for sacrificing one to save many.

Joel then sacrificed many to save one for his own selfish emotional reasons

It was evil
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Also worth noting that Joel is the closest thing Ellie has to a parent, and in our world a 15 year old can't make their own medical decisions anyway. At least,
In lots of places.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/22/case-sparks-debate-about-teen-decision-making-in-health
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I remember getting to that part and just starring at the screen not wanting to kill the last surgeon. Then I didn't shoot him and ended up shoving scissors in his face when I was wanting a handshake

Isn't that just freaking brilliant game design? How can you not love this ending?
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DevsBro posted...

Also worth noting that Joel is the closest thing Ellie has to a parent, and in our world a 15 year old can't make their own medical decisions anyway. At least,
In lots of places.

This isn't our world anymore. It's a zombie apocolypse and Ellie's brain holds a cure

Ellie is very intelligent, we learn this both in the DLC and when she takes care of Joel. She makes a very informed decision to do whatever it takes to get to the Fireflies and Joel knows she would die to save others.

I'd also argue Marlene is as much of a parent figure than Joel was (who only just decided he cared) and she reluctantly supports the decision

Point is moot anyway, Ellie's consent being "Too immature, decide again in 3 years" has nothing to do with Joel's actions. Hence his lying to her. He's just selfish

As I said, bend over backwards just to make Joel a hero

It's like 10,000 Harelyquinns saying that Joker only slaps her because he loves her
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Ellie was cool with it. She would be happy to die to save the world

She's still depressed from when her gal-pal died.

Yeah, but at the end of the day they needed to ask directly for 100% confirmation. And Ellie needed a chance to say her goodbyes. Joel wouldn't let his kid die completely ignorant about why based on a mere possibility. That's too similar to how his daughter died.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The fireflies also let Joel live purely out of kindess and he repays them by murdering them.

They let him live out of guilt. They were basically trying to relieve their guilt for sacrificing a kid by placing it all onto him instead. In light of what needed to be done with Ellie, just killing Joel too would've been the more merciful option.

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

It's pretty gray, but he did the right thing but murdering all the doctors was rather bad

That's why it's the player's choice whether or not to kill the unarmed doctors. There's nothing stopping Joel from just walking out on them. The only person he definitely kills who he didn't absolutely need to in order to save Ellie was Marlene at the end.

l Dudeboy l posted...

I don't know who Joel is or what game were talking about.

http://mst3k.wikia.com/wiki/Joel_Robinson

Joel crash-landed in the Australian outback, and spent a few years travelling and doing freelance pyrotechnics for the band Man or Astro-man?. Later, he set up a Hot Fish Shop in Osseo, Minnesota. At some point, Joel learned that Dr. Forrester had rigged most of the SOL's components to self-destruct after ten years, and pulled together a spaceship to go back and repair the ship. Joel entered tractor range of the SOL during a showing of Soultaker, and reunited with the bots, meeting Mike for the first time. Though Mike and the bots asked if he could take them back to Earth with him, Joel declined, explaining that the years he spent on the SOL were the best years of his life, and telling Mike "it made a man out of me and maybe, just maybe, it'll make a man out of you too." Once the repairs were finished, Joel boarded his ship and headed back to Earth. Mike was so busy pondering that line of wisdom that he missed his chance at an obvious escape.

Ellie doesn't actually know she has to die for it though. I don't see any indication that she's that selfless either. There's an easily missible conversation in the Fall chapter, in the science building, where Ellie asks what kind of procedure she'll have to undergo. Joel says they'll probably just draw some blood. "It don't hurt."

She does talk like she's suicidal in the ending but not like there's anything selfless in it.
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Sojy posted...

That's why it's the player's choice whether or not to kill the unarmed doctors. There's nothing stopping Joel from just walking out on them. The only person he definitely kills who he didn't absolutely need to in order to save Ellie was Marlene at the end.

False. You have to kill 1 doctor

Sojy posted...

Yeah, but at the end of the day they needed to ask directly for 100% confirmation. And Ellie needed a chance to say her goodbyes. Joel wouldn't let his kid die completely ignorant about why based on a mere possibility. That's too similar to how his daughter died.

Exactly. Joel was being selfish

He didn't want to fail again and was sick of losing what he wanted. so he put his own wants above the world and fucked over everyone else

Thats evil. He's a bad man

Sojy posted...

They let him live out of guilt. They were basically trying to relieve their guilt for sacrificing a kid by placing it all onto him instead.

That makes no sense. Fireflies are terrorists, they kill people all the time. Marlene didn't want Joel to die because Joel didn't deserve it after all he had done. So they bring him when is unconcious and let him go.

Marlene has a conscience. Joel didn't anymore. So he killed her and all her chums and fucked the world.

In light of what needed to be done with Ellie, just killing Joel too would've been the more merciful option.

That makes no sense. How is murder merciful?
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DevsBro posted...

Ellie doesn't actually know she has to die for it though. I don't see any indication that she's that selfless either. There's an easily missible conversation in the Fall chapter, in the science building, where Ellie asks what kind of procedure she'll have to undergo. Joel says they'll probably just draw some blood. "It don't hurt."

She does talk like she's suicidal in the ending but not like there's anything selfless in it.

You haven't played the Left Behind DLC.

Ellie is depressed because her lesbian girlfriend died and she has survivor guilt.

Ellie didn't know she had to die, true but Marlene and Joel both know she would be cool with it. Hence why Joel lies to Ellie about what happened.

There is really no debate that Ellie would have been willing to die for a cure. She repeatedly risks her life throughout the game just in the quest for a cure.

And there would be no pain, she;s unconcious when they find her and doesn't wake up until Joel kidnaps her
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the fireflies were assholes. I mean look at what they do when you first get to their hideout. What kind of jerk attack a man trying to save a girl's life? he's clearly doing CPR on her, and they run over and punch him and knock him out

UnfairRepresent posted...

Sojy posted...

That's why it's the player's choice whether or not to kill the unarmed doctors. There's nothing stopping Joel from just walking out on them. The only person he definitely kills who he didn't absolutely need to in order to save Ellie was Marlene at the end.

False. You have to kill 1 doctor

That doctor had a weapon. I explicitly said "unarmed doctors" lmao.

UnfairRepresent posted...

No there's not.

What are you on about?

If you read some of the text logs scattered throughout the last area, you'd find the research notes from the fireflies experimenting on other resistant individuals. All subjects died, no cure found.

Fact of the matter is, Ellie was never put in a position to make an informed decision about this.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

If you read some of the text logs scattered throughout the last area, you'd find the research notes from the fireflies experimenting on other resistant individuals. All subjects died, no cure found.

No there wasn't.

Those weren't Ellie. They weren't immune. They were just testing people

You're thinking of:

April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.

We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.

"Past Cases" aren't people with immunity, they're just dudes who were infected.

This is what I mean about people bending over backwards
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He never should have left Funhaus.
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If you read some of the text logs scattered throughout the last area, you'd find the research notes from the fireflies experimenting on other resistant individuals. All subjects died, no cure found.

These things are all dumped online. Show me the full text of a single one that says any of the other test subjects was immune.

You haven't played the Left Behind DLC.

Yeah, I have, actually. If anything, it implies Ellie has found a new Riley in Joel just like Joel has found a new Sarah in Ellie. That's why Riley's words to Ellie "we fight for every second we have together" are spoken over the image of Ellie caring for Joel and taking him away from the mall where the hunters are trying to kill them.
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DevsBro posted...

Yeah, I have, actually. If anything, it implies Ellie has found a new Riley in Joel just like Joel has found a new Sarah in Ellie. That's why Riley's words to Ellie "we fight for every second we have together" are spoken over the image of Ellie caring for Joel and taking him away from the mall where the hunters are trying to kill them.

Oh fuck off

This is exactly my point, everyone makes up bullshit fan-fiction to justify Joels actions.

How the hell did Ellie find Riley in Joel? Riley was someone she wanted to fuck, Joel was a father figure.

Why do you think Joel lied to Ellie?

If you for one second try to argue that Ellie would not have been willing to sacrifice herself if it meant a potential cure then you're just drinking your own kool-aid
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Riley was someone she wanted to f***

What makes you say that? They were just good friends that had an awkward two-second kiss never foreshadowed or mentioned again. On the other hand, Riley was a kind of street smart mentor in addition to a friend.
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Oh, here we go
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I have no intention of pursuing that, actually. That's way off topic.
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