Current Events > Y/N: Complaints about Biden should be saved until after the election

(+) Yeah! (+)

legendary_zell posted...

This is categorically false. Y'all are ignoring posts that are inconvenient to your argument and your conclusion that people who aren't making public loyalty oaths to Biden regardless of what he does or does not do are immature, bigoted, saboteur trolls.

Is it false? I've routinely shit on Democrats and Israel for years and even I'm accused of believing Biden is above reproach and that my mask will slip.

"Trump is far worse" gets twisted into "blind defense of Biden" all the fucking time

legendary_zell posted...

You can laugh all you want, but there are many who react to any mention of Biden that's not unqualified praise with anger. Go ahead and try it. Make a topic on this board or post on any social media a valid criticism of Biden, even say that you're going to vote for Biden in bold, underlined, rainbow colors. People will react as if you're personally taking democracy out back, you'll be called a Russian operative, etc.

There are many people who have decided that since democracy is at stake, they must police all criticism of Biden and treat it with extreme suspicion and hostility. You can disagree or ignore it, but it's happening.

Am I fabricating it from whole cloth or exaggerating what is there? Am I making up posts or am I ascribing too much weight to real posts? Make up your mind.

Fucking read this post and tell me how this is not a persecution complex jfc.

There are probably 1 or 2 people on this entire board that think criticism shouldnt be allowed. You are wrongly attributing the opinions of 2 random posters to the entire board and Biden voters as a whole.

I think Bidens stance on Israel is bad, and he shouldnt give weapons to a genocidal government.

Will i now be silenced and destroyed by the biden public loyalty cult for making this post? @legendary_zell

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I think Bidens stance on Israel is bad, and he shouldnt give weapons to a genocidal government.

Will i now be silenced and destroyed by the biden public loyalty cult for making this post? legendary_zell

https://i.imgur.com/AW90KWx.gif

legendary_zell posted...

they must police all criticism of Biden and treat it with extreme suspicion and hostility

Well yea have you seen the shit people have been posting in these clown topics?

I've seen hamas support, accelerationism support, support for houthis, people saying biden is the same as trump because lgbt rights have gone away under the Biden presidency, and on and on just absolute fucking trash takes.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I think Bidens stance on Israel is bad, and he shouldnt give weapons to a genocidal government.

Will i now be silenced and destroyed by the biden public loyalty cult for making this post? @legendary_zell

You're a trump supporter!!1 /s

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Fucking read this post and tell me how this is not a persecution complex jfc.

There are probably 1 or 2 people on this entire board that think criticism shouldnt be allowed. You are wrongly attributing the opinions of 2 random posters to the entire board and Biden voters as a whole.

It's not persecution for me, because luckily almost all of the online attacks at least are impotent. But if you attach your name to these criticisms in real life, you can experience pretty significant negative consequences, ranging from ostracization to job loss, depending on what your job is, especially in my line of work.

You refuse to understand that it's not just about one or two posters. It's a vocal minority of online and offline hyper-Dems who think politics exclusively means voting, don't participate in, understand, or even actively disparage other types of politics, have given up on influencing politicians or (or don't actually want Biden to change his stance) and so go feral when someone says something that could potentially impact turnout.

Should have known that a topic addressing criticism of Biden would somehow degenerate into a "y u shud vote 4 Biden and not Trump." Fuck people, that sort of thinking is actually really dangerous.

For real, criticizing Biden does not give Trump votes. Most people that aren't a shoe in for both will sanely discuss the merits (lol in this case) of both. The moment we give up criticism of our governmental entities, we are beyond fucked.

Daremo posted...

Pretty much. Things are going to suck if the Dems can't get it together. Getting the voters into the booth is their only job.

But if Trump is far worse, then who fucking cares?! Are voters literally that insane that they will flush their own lives down the shitter to own some politicians?

The GOP is holding a gun to our temples and promising to pull the trigger the day they win, and we're considering if it's worth voting? Because the Democrats haven't earned our votes? Who gives a fuck what the Democrats have earned?

Why not do what's better for you because you don't deserve the worst?

And no one will ever give me an answer besides "Well Biden should think about that and start appealing to us" or "Being a doomsayer isn't a great way to motivate people to vote for Biden." I don't give a shit about Biden! I'm not asking about Biden!

It's like these voters can't decide if politics is super important or some irrelevant pissing contest every few years, so they waffle between.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I think Bidens stance on Israel is bad, and he shouldnt give weapons to a genocidal government.

Will i now be silenced and destroyed by the biden public loyalty cult for making this post? @legendary_zell

Make your own topic with this premise and see what happens. We know what happens. A 500 post topic accusing you of destroying democracy and helping Trump genocide LGBT people. At least if you tie that post to any suggestion of actually doing anything that could potentially have an impact on Biden's calculus in the real world or that could reduce enthusiasm for Biden in any manner.

legendary_zell posted...

It's not persecution for me, because luckily almost all of the online attacks at least are impotent. But if you attach your name to these criticisms in real life, you can experience pretty significant negative consequences, ranging from ostracization to job loss, depending on what your job is, especially in my line of work.

You refuse to understand that it's not just about one or two posters. It's a vocal minority of online and offline hyper-Dems who think politics exclusively means voting, don't participate in, understand, or even actively disparage other types of politics, have given up on influencing politicians or (or don't actually want Biden to change his stance) and so go feral when someone says something that could potentially impact turnout.

So youre fully admitting that youre spending this much time arguing that a small minority of people will go feral if you criticize biden.

Okay dude.

legendary_zell posted...

Make your own topic with this premise and see what happens. We know what happens. A 500 post topic accusing you of destroying democracy and helping Trump genocide LGBT people. At least if you tie that post to any suggestion of actually doing anything that could potentially have an impact on Biden's calculus in the real world or that could reduce enthusiasm for Biden in any manner.

This doesnt fucking happen lmao you are deluded for these statements

hockeybabe89 posted...

Are voters literally that insane that they will flush their own lives down the shitter to own some politicians?

Some are when it's not their rights that will be the first to go.

hockeybabe89 posted...

But if Trump is far worse, then who fucking cares?! Are voters literally that insane that they will flush their own lives down the shitter to own some politicians?

The GOP is holding a gun to our temples and promising to pull the trigger the day they win, and we're considering if it's worth voting? Because the Democrats haven't earned our votes? Who gives a fuck what the Democrats have earned?

Why not do what's better for you because you don't deserve the worst?

And no one will ever give me an answer besides "Well Biden should think about that and start appealing to us" or "Being a doomsayer isn't a great way to motivate people to vote for Biden." I don't give a shit about Biden! I'm not asking about Biden!

It's like these voters can't decide if politics is super important or some irrelevant pissing contest every few years, so they waffle between.

McCain was worse than Obama
Bush was worse than Gore
Bush was worse than Clinton
Bush was worse than Dukakis
Reagan was worse than Mondale

if "THE OTHER GUY IS WORSE" is all it needs to vote, what ever gives dems the incentive to improve?

Hell, I'd vote for Biden if I wasn't in the most red state in the country (Arkansas), where my vote literally won't matter if its not red but always giving them a pass because the other side is worse doesn't do anything productive

hockeybabe89 posted...

And no one will ever give me an answer besides "Well Biden should think about that and start appealing to us" or "Being a doomsayer isn't a great way to motivate people to vote for Biden." I don't give a shit about Biden! I'm not asking about Biden!

This is the focal point of every topic here.

I don't give a fuck about Biden. He could a pigeon and I'd vote in a pigeon over even remotely pretending anything is worse than Trump.

If you need your vote "earned" to vote against fascism, you're just as culpable when Trump wins. 2 party system babyyyyy

pazzy posted...

Should have known that a topic addressing criticism of Biden would somehow degenerate into a "y u shud vote 4 Biden and not Trump." Fuck people, that sort of thinking is actually really dangerous.

For real, criticizing Biden does not give Trump votes. Most people that aren't a shoe in for both will sanely discuss the mertis (lol in this case) of both. The moment we give up criticism of our governmental entities, we are beyond fucked.

Again, where the fuck are these arguments coming from? The vast vast majority of people in this topic are agreeing that criticism of Biden should be allowed.

hockeybabe89 posted...

But if Trump is far worse, then who f***ing cares?! Are voters literally that insane that they will flush their own lives down the s***ter to own some politicians?

Literally everyone should. The fact that Biden can do something like what he's doing with Israel, ignore all of the pleas from people that are opposed to it, not care about the potential consequences that he could face during election time for it says a lot about the state of our government.

We already got this mess with Hillary Clinton versus Trump where people were already meh on them both outside of people that were deranged and really wanted Trump for some reason. The last thing we need is for Democrats to start slacking because Republicans give you ridiculous caricatures of people and just run on "I'm not completely psychotic." As a platform.

legendary_zell posted...

Make your own topic with this premise and see what happens. We know what happens. A 500 post topic accusing you of destroying democracy and helping Trump genocide LGBT people. At least if you tie that post to any suggestion of actually doing anything that could potentially have an impact on Biden's calculus in the real world or that could reduce enthusiasm for Biden in any manner.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80746086

Okay let's see how this goes.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

So youre fully admitting that youre spending this much time arguing that a small minority of people will go feral if you criticize biden.

Okay dude.

I didn't say it was a small minority. I said a vocal minority. They're also a powerful minority. Earlier this year, the most powerful Democrat of our lifetime other than Biden or Obama accused anti-Israel protesters calling for a ceasefire of being Russian plants spreading Russian propaganda. This stance I'm talking about is much more common among the more establishment-pilled politicians, officials, and journalists.

legendary_zell posted...

I didn't say it was a small minority. I said a vocal minority.

I just made a topic criticizing Biden's handling of Gaza.

Now let's see that vocal minority in action.

Kain_Highwind posted...

but always giving them a pass because the other side is worse doesn't do anything productive

So, is there no middle ground between giving a pass amd abstaining because you don't get anything? Or is there some way to still avoid the worst case and still put pressure for change?

This topic became even stupider than it was the last time I posted in it. That's impressive

Absolutely no one is being barred from criticizing Biden. That's some of the most disingenuous shit I've read in awhile

GranAures posted...

Some are when it's not their rights that will be the first to go.

Right. I have a friend that has literally been hearing about it and basically praying that his family doesn't die like ... Everyday. It's really distressing to me. To him, thinking about lgbtq+ rights couldn't be further from the table...

And the thing is? I started to understand where he was coming from when I listened to him. If they at least pose the threat they won't vote for Biden, maybe things would change or slow down... And it didn't.

And then when they mentioned that Trump has a tendency to pull out of things that Democrats do whether it's a good idea or a bad one, it really started to make sense how they could come to the conclusion that they did. I'm not saying they are right, but I DO understand their mentality.

pazzy posted...

Literally everyone should. The fact that Biden can do something like what he's doing with Israel, ignore all of the pleas from people that are opposed to it, not care about the potential consequences that he could face during election time for it says a lot about the state of our government.

We already got this mess with Hillary Clinton versus Trump where people were already meh on them both outside of people that were deranged and really wanted Trump for some reason. The last thing we need is for Democrats to start slacking because Republicans give you ridiculous caricatures of people and just run on "I'm not completely psychotic." As a platform.

Ok, but that's still what the actual state of our government is. We'll sit home and just hope the completely psychotic side doesn't win? Because we wish the other side was better and don't want to let them think they can win with the minimum effort? How many innocent lives are we willing to bet on this gamble?

Cemith posted...

I just made a topic criticizing Biden's handling of Gaza.

Now let's see that vocal minority in action.

Why cutoff the rest of my post? The former speaker of the house doesn't post on this board, but made the exact type of argument I'm talking about. Why not address that?

Go ahead and make your topic an actual leftist/popular critique and defend that position. Say Biden is doing something incredibly unpopular, facilitating a genocide, etc. You're not saying why it's a weak response or what you'll do in response, without saying you won't vote for Biden. As I said, that's what provokes the feral response. Saying his stance is weak without saying its unacceptable, immoral, and must be changed doesn't prove your point.

And of course people will be on their best behavior if they're reading this topic or posting in your topic in response to this topic.

legendary_zell posted...

Why cutoff the rest of my post? The former speaker of the house doesn't post on this board, but made the exact type of argument I'm talking about. Why not address that?

Go ahead and make your topic an actual leftist/popular critique and defend that position. Say Biden is doing something incredibly unpopular, facilitating a genocide, etc. You're not saying why it's a weak response or what you'll do in response, without saying you won't vote for Biden. As I said, that's what provokes the feral response. Saying his stance is weak without saying its unacceptable, immoral, and must be changed doesn't prove your point.

And of course people will be on their best behavior if they're reading this topic or posting in your topic in response to this topic.

The goal posts have been moved

legendary_zell posted...

I've read the poll, I've read the posts. Have you read the topic title and the poll options? I'm discussing what the topic is actually about and disputing that premise.

You are disputing something most are not saying.

In otherwords, being disingenuous.

Most here agree its perfectly fine to criticize Biden. What's most criticize is those who also support abstaining from voting or going 3rd party. But claim to care about Palestinians or Muslims.

Not voting actually harms them even more. You are fully aware of this yet still try to claim its criticism alone what people are addressing.

Nobody should be above reproach. Biden has his issues, and they should weigh into how much a person reflects on them.

legendary_zell posted...

Why cutoff the rest of my post? The former speaker of the house doesn't post on this board, but made the exact type of argument I'm talking about. Why not address that?

Because Pelosi sucks and is wrong. This isn't a brave take.

legendary_zell posted...

Go ahead and make your topic an actual leftist/popular critique

Criticizing Biden's handling of Gaza is a popular critique. It's one of the most popular things to do with your average leftist. You also said earlier that people are loudly criticized by a minority when they admonish Biden. My topic is the litmus test.

legendary_zell posted...

without saying you won't vote for Biden.

Because that's a stupid stance. This isn't a criticism of Biden. It is an admonishment of the GOP.

legendary_zell posted...

And of course people will be on their best behavior if they're reading this topic or posting in your topic in response to this topic.

Oh of course. Would it kill you to stand by your claim? You think a vocal minority will persecute me for criticizing Biden. You do not then get to poison the well by saying "they'll be on their best behavior!"

legendary_zell posted...

without saying you won't vote for Biden

But I thought you said your issue was that people were getting mad for merely criticizing biden?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

The goal posts have been moved

If you read my posts, I directly identified what causes people to go feral. As I said in post 110:

"At least if you tie that post to any suggestion of actually doing anything that could potentially have an impact on Biden's calculus in the real world or that could reduce enthusiasm for Biden in any manner."

No goalposts have been moved.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

The goal posts have been moved

They're not even in the same time zone anymore.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Ok, but that's still what the actual state of our government is, so maybe let's try voting based on reality and what side will hurt us less.

We'll sit home and just hope the completely psychotic side doesn't win? Because we wish the other side was better and don't want to let them think they can win with the minimum effort? How many innocent lives are we willing to bet on this gamble?

All I've ever been trying to say is that, when it comes down to it, literal election day with ballot in hand, how does someone not choose the less damaging option just because it's the less damaging option? How would there be doubt in that moment?

This doesn't actually address the problem though. It doesn't even halt it. We still have massive problems. Our healthcare is bad, our infrastructure is bad, our government still routinely fucks up minorities and nothing is done about it. We don't regulate pricing on things and the divide between upper and lower classes is still there... People in the US are still dying from preventative healthcare issues... The way we are hurt goes well beyond what you're saying and criticism, I might add, has nothing to do with this.

Which doesn't address the point in the least.

Which still addresses nothing. Which is why I feel that people like you attack this point more. Because it's easier to take that route instead of acknowledging the fuckery that's happening.

We can't continue in this environment. If democrats wise up to the fact that all they have to do is be "less bad than Republicans," we are not eating good as us voters. The problem is that some people in this topic have stealth turned this subject from criticism to voting just so they can argue this point away.

Cemith posted...

Because Pelosi sucks and is wrong. This isn't a brave take.

That's my whole point! She's a powerful person and she's not the only one. So when people say they're not seeing other people saying this, it's not credible.

Criticizing Biden's handling of Gaza is a popular critique. It's one of the most popular things to do with your average leftist. You also said earlier that people are loudly criticized by a minority when they admonish Biden. My topic is the litmus test.

Because that's a stupid stance. This isn't a criticism of Biden. It is an admonishment of the GOP.

Oh of course. Would it kill you to stand by your claim? You think a vocal minority will persecute me for criticizing Biden. You do not then get to poison the well by saying "they'll be on their best behavior!"

I stand by my claims that I actually made. If a person completely unrelated to either of us said even what you said, they'd be attacked. Much less if they made an actual leftist critique. What you posted is not a leftist critique, it's pretty much the median opinion of the liberal/Democratic voter, if the polls can be trusted.

LightningThief posted...

You are disputing something most are not saying.

In otherwords, being disingenuous.

Most here agree its perfectly fine to criticize Biden. What's most criticize is those who also support abstaining from voting or going 3rd party. But claim to care about Palestinians or Muslims.

Not voting actually harms them even more. You are fully aware of this yet still try to claim its criticism alone what people are addressing.

I think the issue is that they are arguing against something that's not entirely present in the topic.

I disagree. I think they are just speaking in error. There's no reason to believe they aren't genuine here.

Which is where it gets bizarre. Because criticism doesn't dictate who you vote for. And remember, the topic literally made it weird by saying "you shouldn't criticize until after the election..." Which is why this probably even came up in the first place.

Not voting is one of those... "Only in a swing state" sort of things honestly. If I started believing more people would take our elections more seriously or we got rid of the college, I'd have more faith in things.

pazzy posted...

We can't continue in this environment. If democrats wise up to the fact that all they have to do is be "less bad than Republicans," we are not eating good as us voters. The problem is that some people in this topic have stealth turned this subject from criticism to voting just so they can argue this point away.

No you are twisting it to that.

Most here have said it's okay to criticize Biden. What's being attacked is also the same group of people happily championing the ass backwards logic that not voting actually helps people. Then the same disingenuous usually chiming in to pretend this is about criticism of Biden.

This isn't the first time this discussion was had. We literally have individuals in this topic who happily promote staying home election as a big brained move to help Palestinians, Muslims, Gaza.

legendary_zell posted...

You can laugh all you want, but there are many who react to any mention of Biden that's not unqualified praise with anger. Go ahead and try it. Make a topic on this board or post on any social media a valid criticism of Biden, even say that you're going to vote for Biden in bold, underlined, rainbow colors. People will react as if you're personally taking democracy out back, you'll be called a Russian operative, etc.

Yeah heres you in post 100 bud. How about shut the fuck up and take your disingenuous ass out of here.

LightningThief posted...

No you are twisting it to that.

Most here have said it's okay to criticize Biden. What's being attacked is also the same group of people happily championing the ass backwards logic that not voting actually helps people. Then the same disingenuous usually chiming in to pretend this is about criticism of Biden.

It's not.

I literally was addressing someone that isn't. Because I have never championed that logic. That is simply never said. You are abusing the word "disingenuous" here. It means that the person isn't arguing sincerely. I have no reason to believe these people are not.

legendary_zell posted...

That's my whole point! She's a powerful person and she's not the only one. So when people say they're not seeing other people saying this, it's not credible.

Good thing no one is actually saying that. Everyone sees the criticism of Biden and his handling of Gaza. Reporters ask him about this daily. Because Pelosi is a moron it doesn't mean we can apply her stance to every Dem everywhere.

legendary_zell posted...

I stand by my claims that I actually made. If a person completely unrelated to either of us said even what you said, they'd be attacked

No, that's not your claim. Your claim was that criticism of Biden would net me criticism of people that think it's wrong to criticize Biden.

You do not then get to say "Oh but because you did it it won't count!"

That is a moved goalpost.

pazzy posted...

It's not.

I literally was addressing someone that isn't. Because I have never championed that logic. That is simply never said. You are abusing the word "disingenuous" here. It means that the person isn't arguing sincerely. I have no reason to believe these people are not.

Great you haven't. That does not change there are those in this topic who have and you're playing dumb to that.

This isn't the first time this discussion was had. We literally have individuals in this topic who happily promote staying home election as a big brained move to help Palestinians, Muslims, Gaza in multiple past topics. So no, we can't just pretend those people are not championing the idea when they show up in this topic.

legendary_zell posted...

That's my whole point! She's a powerful person and she's not the only one. So when people say they're not seeing other people saying this, it's not credible.

I stand by my claims that I actually made. If a person completely unrelated to either of us said even what you said, they'd be attacked. Much less if they made an actual leftist critique. What you posted is not a leftist critique, it's pretty much the median opinion of the liberal/Democratic voter, if the polls can be trusted.

There are extremist everywhere. We shouldn't hold those people accountable when they aren't necessarily present. If you see it, address it. For instance, I love in a purple area, but there are red areas I can walk to, and I'd certainly be attacked for being critical of Trump so I definitely understand where you're coming from.

We missed our chance to not vote Biden during the primaries. We should still criticize him, but the choice of voting is clear. We don't live in much of a democracy. Once you accept that it doesn't really work as an ideal system, risk reduction is acceptable.

Topic's not great

LightningThief posted...

Great you haven't. That does not change there are those in this topic who have and you're playing dumb to that.

This isn't the first time this discussion was had. We literally have individuals in this topic who happily promote staying home election as a big brained move to help Palestinians, Muslims, Gaza in multiple past topics. So no, we can't just pretend those people are not championing the idea.

I'm sure there are. And I think that's a good thing to address. I'd agree.

Sure. I don't think "not voting" is ever a solution to anything, but at the same time, I can understand the sentiment. Like I said, I've seen people that have family they are worried about, so it seems really fucked up to hear people say "well just vote for it anyways, because people like me will be in danger if you don't." And that's not a really good argument either.

Cemith posted...

Good thing no one is actually saying that. Everyone sees the criticism of Biden and his handling of Gaza. Reporters ask him about this daily. Because Pelosi is a moron it doesn't mean we can apply her stance to every Dem everywhere.

ssb_yunglink2, the main guy I've been going back and forth with did actually say that though. I'm not attempting to apply her stance to every Dem, only the people who echo her rhetoric and similar claims. I brought that up to counter the idea that "no one" is saying what she in fact said.

No, that's not your claim. Your claim was that criticism of Biden would net me criticism of people that think it's wrong to criticize Biden.

You do not then get to say "Oh but because you did it it won't count!"

That is a moved goalpost.

It's just reality. If you present the topic as a real topic with real criticism and go back and forth with people, you will be criticized for simply criticizing Biden. I haven't changed that stance. We've seen it countless times on this board and elsewhere. It's happened to me and other good faith posters.

pazzy posted...

I'm sure there are. And I think that's a good thing to address. I'd agree.

Sure. I don't think "not voting" is ever a solution to anything, but at the same time, I can understand the sentiment. Like I said, I've seen people that have family they are worried about, so it seems really fucked up to hear people say "well just vote for it anyways, because people like me will be in danger if you don't." And that's not a really good argument either.

You "understanding them" doesn't mean they don't deserve criticism for their ass backwards logic that isn't actually helping the cause they claim to want to fix. Their actions actually make it 10x worse.

Hence, why once again, we are addressing those people. Those people are in this topic, as this discussion has been talked about plenty of times. This isn't the first.

Understanding their reasons does not change their action promoting others and themselves not to vote, actively is promoting to let the worse case scenario make things far worse for the people they so claim to care about. Like it or not, Biden or Trump will win. Elections have consequences regardless if you aren't madly in love with both candidates.

Understanding their reasons for acting against their own claimed interest doesn't change its exactly that.

I say claimed interest, because no, some of these people aren't actually genuine. Some of them are Republicans/Trump supporters who knows there's a portion of the left who are open to repeating 2016. As they are the same types that love to shoot themselves in the foot.

Shadow_Don posted...

But I thought you said your issue was that people were getting mad for merely criticizing biden?

I don't understand what you're saying here. That's part of my point, I've seen people say they are voting for Biden or at least saying they're not advocating abstention/are only advocating protest votes be accused of suppressing turnout.

I'm not saying that his topic should advocate abstention, maybe I wrote that poorly?

hockeybabe89 posted...

But if Trump is far worse, then who fucking cares?! Are voters literally that insane that they will flush their own lives down the shitter to own some politicians?

The GOP is holding a gun to our temples and promising to pull the trigger the day they win, and we're considering if it's worth voting? Because the Democrats haven't earned our votes? Who gives a fuck what the Democrats have earned?

Why not do what's better for you because you don't deserve the worst?

And no one will ever give me an answer besides "Well Biden should think about that and start appealing to us" or "Being a doomsayer isn't a great way to motivate people to vote for Biden." I don't give a shit about Biden! I'm not asking about Biden!

It's like these voters can't decide if politics is super important or some irrelevant pissing contest every few years, so they waffle between.

That's your stance.

It's not irrational, and indeed, not far from my own.

It is not everyone's stance. Different people have different priorities.

And in regards to this specific topic, there is, I would say, no benefit to not applying pressure to Biden and the democrats. If you want the democrats to do better, and who doesn't want that, then you have to tell them what you want. If they are slow to respond, you have to apply pressure. What does shutting up and voting for the same old thing get you? Nothing.

Appealing to consequences is not going to get everyone on board. Indeed, everyone it would get on board is already going to be on board. So you're either preaching to the choir, or haranguing people who have already demonstrated that that tact won't work on them.

So it would seem meet to pivot to a different argument, just from a pragmatist view.

LightningThief posted...

You "understanding them" doesn't mean they don't deserve criticism for their ass backwards logic that isn't actually helping the cause they claim to want to fix. Their actions actually make it 10x worse.

Hence, why once again, we are addressing those people. Those people are in this topic, as this discussion has been talked about plenty of times. This isn't the first.

Understanding their reasons does not change their action promoting others and themselves not to vote, actively is promoting to let the worse case scenario make things far worse for the people they so claim to care about. Like it or not, Biden or Trump will win. Elections have consequences regardless if you aren't madly in love with both candidates.

Understanding their reasons for acting against their own claimed interest doesn't change its exactly that.

I say claimed interest, because no, some of these people aren't actually genuine. Some of them are Republicans/Trump supporters who knows there's a portion of the left who are open to repeating 2016. As they are the same types that love to shoot themselves in the foot.

Is it really that backwards though? Again, you propose something that doesn't help to them as an alternative to... Die or die?

Sure.

Which I might add isn't even what some of the people in the topic have asked for. What's weird about this topic is there's a dissonance of talking about a ton of people that aren't even in the topic.

Sure. They probably aren't, but that doesn't mean that genuine people aren't existing.

My beef with this topic is there's a lot of talking passed people rather than to or about anyone in particular.

legendary_zell posted...

It's just reality. If you present the topic as a real topic with real criticism and go back and forth with people, you will be criticized for simply criticizing Biden. I haven't changed that stance. We've seen it countless times on this board and elsewhere. It's happened to me and other good faith posters.

No, it isn't. That's your claim you made. That no one is allowed to criticize Biden without being dogpiled. It is ludicrous because that's never been the case. The only people that are ever admonished are those that refuse to acknowledge the Trumpian alternative.

Nothing about my topic implies that is was made with an ulterior motive. I posted a clear and concise criticism of his handling of Gaza, and said I would vote for him when he is inevitably the Democratic candidate because that's how US elections work.

So far the only criticism I've gotten in said topic is that people talking about Biden and Gaza is getting old. No one has told me I'm wrong to do so, yet.