Current Events > Y/N: Complaints about Biden should be saved until after the election

(+) Yeah! (+)

legendary_zell posted...

How is he going to adjust his stance if you stay silent about it AND hand him victory despite what he's doing with no muss or fuss? What's the theory of change there?

What would it matter if vote withholding causes him to adjust his stance just in time to give the election to the guy who wants to turn Gaza into a parking lot?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

uh yeah?

Acting mature is like socialism, UnAmerican!

legendary_zell posted...

How is he going to adjust his stance if you stay silent about it AND hand him victory despite what he's doing with no muss or fuss? What's the theory of change there?

I don't dispute that Trump would make it worse, but it seems like the reality is that what people are actually pushing is a slow death for Palestine while we all silently watch. Many people are not going to sign onto that.

You always attempt to mix in not being allowed to criticize Biden into these posts. The vast majority of this topic is people saying that criticism of Biden is valid, so I dont know why you do this. I will criticize Biden for his stance on Israel, yet still vote for him.

Once again, its the not voting for him that gets people angry. Ive explained this exact thing to you multiple times before and you keep doing it. Criticize Biden, literally nobody is stopping you. But if you dont vote for him youre accepting an outcome that you acknowledge as objectively worse

DrizztLink posted...

What would it matter if vote withholding causes him to adjust his stance just in time to give the election to the guy who wants to turn Gaza into a parking lot?

Presumably he'd change his stance before the election if he really thought it would cost him. I've never advocated for people actually withholding votes at all, much less enough for him to lose over.

This topic is not about that, it's about complaints in general. This topic and many people in it want total silence, total resignation, they're not just criticizing abstention. The premise is that criticizing him in itself is wrong and dangerous and thus people should stop doing it.

legendary_zell posted...

Presumably he'd change his stance before the election if he really thought it would cost him. I've never advocated for people actually withholding votes at all, much less enough for him to lose over.

This topic is not about that, it's about complaints in general. This topic and many people in it want total silence, total resignation, they're not just criticizing abstention. The premise is that criticizing him in itself is wrong and dangerous and thus people should stop doing it.

Okay now youre just flagrantly bullshitting. Read the fucking posts in this topic since you clearly made your posts without seeing what people are actually saying

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

You always attempt to mix in not being allowed to criticize Biden into these posts. The vast majority of this topic is people saying that criticism of Biden is valid, so I dont know why you do this. I will criticize Biden for his stance on Israel, yet still vote for him.

Once again, its the not voting for him that gets people angry. Ive explained this exact thing to you multiple times before and you keep doing it. Criticize Biden, literally nobody is stopping you. But if you dont vote for him youre accepting an outcome that you acknowledge as objectively worse

People are saying both and people that say "I'm only talking about absention" also clearly have a problem with bare criticism. I've explained this as well and it's been readily apparent in every topic and public discussion on this subject.

My stance on nonvoting has also been clear in every topic as well.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

You always attempt to mix in not being allowed to criticize Biden into these posts. The vast majority of this topic is people saying that criticism of Biden is valid, so I dont know why you do this. I will criticize Biden for his stance on Israel, yet still vote for him.

Once again, its the not voting for him that gets people angry. Ive explained this exact thing to you multiple times before and you keep doing it. Criticize Biden, literally nobody is stopping you. But if you dont vote for him youre accepting an outcome that you acknowledge as objectively worse

This also ignores nuance, as most of your ilk tend to. Functionally, someone in say, New York, California, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. choosing not to vote for Biden isnt going to change literally anything, because Biden is going to sweep or get blown out regardless depending on what state its in.

legendary_zell posted...

People are saying both and people that say "I'm only talking about absention" also clearly have a problem with bare criticism. I've explained this as well and it's been readily apparent in every topic and public discussion on this subject.

My stance on nonvoting has also been clear in every topic as well.

Look at the poll. Look at the majority of posts in this topic. Youre not being persecuted for criticizing fucking Joe biden.

PraetorXyn posted...

This also ignores nuance, as most of your ilk tend to. Functionally, someone in say, New York, California, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. choosing not to vote for Biden isnt going to change literally anything, because Biden is going to sweep or get blown out regardless depending on what state its in.

Wow you got weirdly hostile about me saying people should vote. Interesting that youre arguing in favor of people not voting because it doesnt matter

I know a certain party who loves that argument

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Look at the poll. Look at the majority of posts in this topic. Youre not being persecuted for criticizing fucking Joe biden.

I've read the poll, I've read the posts. Have you read the topic title and the poll options? I'm discussing what the topic is actually about and disputing that premise.

Some of the more savvy will say they're fine with criticism when specifically called on the antidemocratic nature of being opposed to it, but many on this board and at least one in this topic have made the argument criticism, just criticism can only serve Republicans, is likely a Republican plot to depress turnout, is disingenuous, is dangerous, should be confined to a primary, etc. They'll say they're fine with mere criticism, but will viciously attack anyone who does what they say they're fine with.

legendary_zell posted...

I've read the poll, I've read the posts. Have you read the topic title and the poll options? I'm discussing what the topic is actually about and disputing that premise.

Some of the more savvy will say they're fine with criticism when specifically called on the antidemocratic nature of being opposed to it, but many on this board and at least one in this topic have made the argument criticism, just criticism can only serve Republicans, is likely a Republican plot to depress turnout, is disingenuous, is dangerous, should be confined to a primary, etc. They'll say they're fine with mere criticism, but will viciously attack anyone who does what they say they're fine with.

So youre hinging this argument on something that ONE PERSON in this entire topic said. Come on now you know thats just unreasonable.

And dont pretend that everyone here who criticizes Biden is doing it with good faith. Posters like MrMojo and Butterymales literally do not care about the arguments theyre making.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Wow you got weirdly hostile about me saying people should vote. Interesting that youre arguing in favor of people not voting because it doesnt matter

I know a certain party who loves that argument

No Im just saying anyone who says shit like if you dont vote youre my enemy and if you dont vote its a vote for Trump is a drama queen ignoring the reality of our electoral system and I roll my eyes every time I see shit like that, because historically, there are about 5 or 6 states theyd have to live in for it to matter at all, as the rest always vote the same way.

Ill vote for Biden if I can get a ride over there, if only for the down ballot races. Hell still win my state by 20 points, so its simply objective reality that if I left president blank on my ballot it wouldnt hurt him at all.

PraetorXyn posted...

No Im just saying anyone who says shit like if you dont vote youre my enemy and if you dont vote its a vote for Trump is a drama queen ignoring the reality of our electoral system and I roll my eyes every time I see shit like that, because historically, there are about 5 or 6 states theyd have to live in for it to matter at all, as the rest always vote the same way.

Ill vote for Biden if I can get a ride over there, if only for the down ballot races. Hell still win my state by 20 points, so its simply objective reality that if I left president blank on my ballot it wouldnt hurt him at all.

Espousing the attitude that your vote doesnt matter hurts voter turnout though. How will anything ever change if people dont vote because they think it wont do anything?

You only have 1 vote, but if several thousand people think this way, thats thousands of votes that COULD have mattered.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

So youre hinging this argument on something that ONE PERSON in this entire topic said. Come on now you know thats just unreasonable.

And dont pretend that everyone here who criticizes Biden is doing it with good faith. Posters like MrMojo and Butterymales literally do not care about the arguments theyre making.

No, I'm not talking about just one post or just one topic. I'm talking about the subject of the topic. What people say about criticizing Biden. And I'm referring to what people say on that subject, including what some of the people in this topic and others have said, beyond that one post.

I've never claimed everyone who criticizes Biden is doing so in good faith. Additionally, you can not care about an argument you're making and the words can still be correct or at least persuasive. Even a blatant troll saying something true does not transform that true statement into an untrue one.

You coming at me with such aggression for no reason is proving my point. I've stated countless times I'm voting for Biden and I'm simply advocating for strong criticism, yet you take far more issue with me than you do with people advocating for antidemocratic positions, are attempting to associate me with people you don't think are arguing in good faith, etc.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Espousing the attitude that your vote doesnt matter hurts voter turnout though. How will anything ever change if people dont vote because they think it wont do anything?

You only have 1 vote, but if several thousand people think this way, thats thousands of votes that COULD have mattered.

Because historically it hasnt for the vast majority of people. Geography is the main reason.

Hillary won California by how many million votes? Lets say 4 million, because Im too lazy to look it up. If youd taken 3 million of those votes out of California and distributed them strategically around the Midwest, shed have swept the Presidency, and probably the Senate and the House depending on how much micromanagement would be done with this hypothetical move.

The reason Republicans maintain a consistent grip on power is because liberal voters over concentrate in major metro areas and in so doing dilute the power of their votes to basically nothing by basically just handing control of most states to Republicans.

PraetorXyn posted...

Because historically it hasnt for the vast majority of people. Geography is the main reason.

Hillary won California by how many million votes? Lets say 4 million, because Im too lazy to look it up. If youd taken 3 million of those votes out of California and distributed them strategically around the Midwest, shed have swept the Presidency, and probably the Senate and the House depending on how much micromanagement would be done with this hypothetical move.

The reason Republicans maintain a consistent grip on power is because liberal voters over concentrate in major metro areas and in so doing dilute the power of their votes to basically nothing by basically just handing control of most states to Republicans.

...seems like dumping the EC would be a lot easier than convincing 4 million people to move to Bumblefuck, Ohio

"I know Trump will be far worse, but I won't vote for the other option because *fart noises*"

legendary_zell posted...

No, I'm not talking about just one post or just one topic. I'm talking about the subject of the topic. What people say about criticizing Biden. And I'm referring to what people say on that subject, including what some of the people in this topic and others have said, beyond that one post.

I've never claimed everyone who criticizes Biden is doing so in good faith. Additionally, you can not care about an argument you're making and the words can still be correct or at least persuasive. Even a blatant troll saying something true does not transform that true statement into an untrue one.

You coming at me with such aggression for no reason is proving my point. I've stated countless times I'm voting for Biden and I'm simply advocating for strong criticism, yet you take far more issue with me than you do with people advocating for antidemocratic positions, are attempting to associate me with people you don't think are arguing in good faith, etc.

Lmao you always try to mix in something to these posts. You just cant argue straight up without trying to call attention to something else. Im not being aggressive in any way, im just saying your argument is unreasonable because its literally being proven wrong by the topic youre posting in.

You keep talking about the posters who dont allow criticism of Biden but WHERE ARE THEY? They certainly arent in this topic, and I dont see them anywhere else on this board. You always just bring them up every time you post though.

You just want to feel persecuted against for the brave stance of *checks notes* criticizing Joe fucking Biden lmao. Thats not some kind of achievement, everyone does it.

DrizztLink posted...

...seems like dumping the EC would be a lot easier than convincing 4 million people to move to Bumblefuck, Ohio

Im mostly talking about Congress, and repealing the EC wouldnt change the Senate or House makeup at all. You cant make geography not matter, because in this country its the most important thing. Geography is the reason Republicans basically have an iron grip on the Senate and only ever need 1 or 2 Democrats to flip to their side at the absolute worst.

Although ironically, youre only helping my point, as the only way to dump the EC is amending the Constitution, and doing that requires controlling 3/4 of states.

PraetorXyn posted...

The reason Republicans maintain a consistent grip on power is because liberal voters over concentrate in major metro areas and in so doing dilute the power of their votes to basically nothing by basically just handing control of most states to Republicans

I think you have some causality backwards. It's not that Democrats consciously seek out the cities, but that urban residents are more likely to support liberal policies.

Antifar posted...

I think you have some causality backwards. It's not that Democrats consciously seek out the cities, but that urban residents are more likely to support liberal policies.

Its both. Until WFH is ubiquitous permanently like it was during COvID, youre going to have people being forced to move to cities to find work.

It is not the voters job to support any candidate no matter what, it's the candidates job to appeal and make voters want to have them in office.

Hillary felt entitled to votes, how'd that work out for her?

It's appalling that people latch on the the bizarro concept of "Ignore our candidate's flaws" rather than "Make our candidate better". You're applying pressure to the wrong end of the equation.

If Biden fails to bring the edge cases into his camp and loses the election, who will be to blame for that?

Spoiler: There's a really big hint in the words, 'Biden fails'.

Daremo posted...

It is not the voters job to support any candidate no matter what, it's the candidates job to appeal and make voters want to have them in office.

Hillary felt entitled to votes, how'd that work out for her?

It's appalling that people latch on the the bizarro concept of "Ignore our candidate's flaws" rather than "Make our candidate better". You're applying pressure to the wrong end of the equation.

If Biden fails to bring the edge cases into his camp and loses the election, who will be to blame for that?

Spoiler: There's a really big hint in the words, 'Biden fails'.

How does not voting for Biden and letting trump win make him better

PraetorXyn posted...

as most of your ilk tend to.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/84f23734.png

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

How does not voting for Biden and letting trump win make him better

Criticism and voting are different verbs. You vote for a few minutes in November, what you do the other 364 days is independent.

You can criticize Biden while acknowledging Trump is a far worse president.

Daremo posted...

It is not the voters job to support any candidate no matter what, it's the candidates job to appeal and make voters want to have them in office.

Hillary felt entitled to votes, how'd that work out for her?

It's appalling that people latch on the the bizarro concept of "Ignore our candidate's flaws" rather than "Make our candidate better". You're applying pressure to the wrong end of the equation.

If Biden fails to bring the edge cases into his camp and loses the election, who will be to blame for that?

Spoiler: There's a really big hint in the words, 'Biden fails'.

it's not about supporting Biden. It's about voting in your best interests. If someone knows there are two options and one is clearly worse, then why do they need anyone to earn their vote. Why would they deliberately sit home and take a chance of fucking themselves because the less bad option didn't "earn" their vote? We need to be politically electrified to not hurt ourselves? That's not just human instinct to some voters?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

How does not voting for Biden and letting trump win make him better

You're looking at the consequence and calling it the cause.

Antifar posted...

Criticism and voting are different verbs

Hes talking about winning and losing the election. Are elections decided by votes or criticism?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Lmao you always try to mix in something to these posts. You just cant argue straight up without trying to call attention to something else. Im not being aggressive in any way, im just saying your argument is unreasonable because its literally being proven wrong by the topic youre posting in.

You keep talking about the posters who dont allow criticism of Biden but WHERE ARE THEY? They certainly arent in this topic, and I dont see them anywhere else on this board. You always just bring them up every time you post though.

You just want to feel persecuted against for the brave stance of *checks notes* criticizing Joe fucking Biden lmao. Thats not some kind of achievement, everyone does it.

Post 12 is one of them. Another one said they suspect criticism of Biden is conservative propaganda. Multiple people have voted in the polls to say that criticism should not be permitted. Multiple posters in every single topic on this subject make the claims I referenced in the previous post. And they are a prominent voice in every public forum where the election is discussed. If you're not seeing them, it's because you're choosing not to or they don't anger you enough for you to notice them

Is it your position that a large contingent are not saying that criticism of Biden depresses turnout, is dangerous, helps Republicans etc on this board and elsewhere? You've never seen that?

You're saying you're not being aggressive and then literally a few sentences later, accuse me of having a false victim/persecution complex that I've never once signaled or demonstrated.

Antifar posted...

Criticism and voting are different verbs

Yes, and literally zero people on CE are mad that anyone criticizes Biden. There is only constant arguments because we have trolls and low-intelligence voters arguing that not voting will help people.

So, if Biden did change stances on Israel, and then ended up losing the election as a result of that (since there IS still a lot of Israel support here, what with things like AIPAC) and Trump ends up making things worse over there, whose fault will it have been?

Wouldn't that be a weird sort of catch-22 situation where Biden trying to do the right thing only made things worse?

Daremo posted...

You're looking at the consequence and calling it the cause.

So the country being objectively worse is the consequence of solely Biden, and not the voters who put Trump there?

Voters can choose to not turn america into a project 2025 hellhole

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

So the country being objectively worse is the consequence of solely Biden, and not the voters who put Trump there?

Voters can choose to not turn america into a project 2025 hellhole

Or Biden can choose to adopt policies that will get people to turn out for him. Is that not an option?

legendary_zell posted...

Post 12 is one of them. Another one said they suspect criticism of Biden is conservative propaganda. Multiple people have voted in the polls to say that criticism should not be permitted. Multiple posters in every single topic on this subject make the claims I referenced in the previous post. And they are a prominent voice in every public forum where the election is discussed. If you're not seeing them, it's because you're choosing not to or they don't anger you enough for you to notice them

Is it your position that a large contingent are not saying that criticism of Biden depresses turnout, is dangerous, helps Republicans etc on this board and elsewhere? You've never seen that?

You're saying you're not being aggressive and then literally a few sentences later, accuse me of having a false victim/persecution complex that I've never once signaled or demonstrated.

Yes, you do clearly have a persecution complex about criticizing Biden. The vast vast majority of people here do not give a shit about criticizing Biden in good faith.

You choosing to focus on one or 2 posters in a topic instead of everyone else telling you its okay to criticize biden is just ridiculous for how much you bring it up.

Your evidence for this topic is quite literally 2 actual posts. It is not this big problem that youre making it out to be.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Yes, and literally zero people on CE are mad that anyone criticizes Biden. There is only constant arguments because we have trolls and low-intelligence voters arguing that not voting will help people.

This is categorically false. Y'all are ignoring posts that are inconvenient to your argument and your conclusion that people who aren't making public loyalty oaths to Biden regardless of what he does or does not do are immature, bigoted, saboteur trolls.

Daremo posted...

Or Biden can choose to adopt policies that will get people to turn out for him. Is that not an option?

What specific policies would you like to see from him?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Yes, you do clearly have a persecution complex about criticizing Biden. The vast vast majority of people here do not give a shit about criticizing Biden in good faith.

You choosing to focus on one or 2 posters in a topic instead of everyone else telling you its okay to criticize biden is just ridiculous for how much you bring it up.

You are not worth responding to on this topic if you won't acknowledge the basic reality of what arguments are being made by me or by others.

legendary_zell posted...

This is categorically false. Y'all are ignoring posts that are inconvenient to your argument and your conclusion that people who aren't making public loyalty oaths to Biden regardless of what he does or does not do are immature, bigoted, saboteur trolls.

Sir, please show me your signed in blood loyalty to biden oath card

Yes people are definitely saying stuff like that lmfao

legendary_zell posted...

This is categorically false. Y'all are ignoring posts that are inconvenient to your argument and your conclusion that people who aren't making public loyalty oaths to Biden regardless of what he does or does not do are immature, bigoted, saboteur trolls.

public loyalty oaths

dawg come on now

Mystereave posted...

So, if Biden did change stances on Israel, and then ended up losing the election as a result of that (since there IS still a lot of Israel support here, what with things like AIPAC) and Trump ends up making things worse over there, whose fault will it have been?

Wouldn't that be a weird sort of catch-22 situation where Biden trying to do the right thing only made things worse?

That could be, though I think even the most ardent Israel supporters are beginning to see this as excessive, between Iran and the West Bank.

Mystereave posted...

So, if Biden did change stances on Israel, and then ended up losing the election as a result of that (since there IS still a lot of Israel support here, what with things like AIPAC)

Is there any proof that Biden would lose more voters by changing stance than he would by continuing to provide weapons for genocide?

Opinion polls suggest approval for Israel's campaign in Gaza is all the way down to 18% among Dem voters.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx

legendary_zell posted...

You are not worth responding to on this topic if you won't acknowledge the basic reality of what arguments are being made by me or by others.

The basic reality that youre fabricating and exaggerating?

A: "I don't want Trump to win"

B: "Ok then vote for Biden"

A: "But I don't want to reward Biden"

B: "Ok then Trump will win and shit will suck a lot worse"

A: "OMG why did Biden let Trump win instead of appealing to me? This is all his fault!"

B: "Buddy, I'm gonna get arrested for pedophilia if I go be trans in public. Hope your principles were worth it"

A: "Biden! Biden did it! Stop blaming me! We had to teach the Democrats a lesson! They don't just earn my vote by being less shit! I did the right thing!"

No

protesters should be allowed to gather and journalists should be able to ask hardball questions about Biden. The Dem convention being in Chicago where there is a large Palestine population outside the city will be protesting if no ceasefire happens before the summer. Maybe even after considering how soft Biden is on Israel.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

What specific policies would you like to see from him?

Ending arms sales to Israel would be a good start.

Shadow_Don posted...

Sir, please show me your signed in blood loyalty to biden oath card

Yes people are definitely saying stuff like that lmfao

Yeah that dude is melting down because he thinks hes not allowed to criticize biden lmao

Daremo posted...

Ending arms sales to Israel would be a good start.

I agree.

hockeybabe89 posted...

A: "Biden! Biden did it! Stop blaming me! We had to teach the Democrats a lesson! They don't just earn my vote by being less shit! I did the right thing!"

Pretty much. Things are going to suck if the Dems can't get it together. Getting the voters into the booth is their only job.

Shadow_Don posted...

Sir, please show me your signed in blood loyalty to biden oath card

Yes people are definitely saying stuff like that lmfao

You can laugh all you want, but there are many who react to any mention of Biden that's not unqualified praise with anger. Go ahead and try it. Make a topic on this board or post on any social media a valid criticism of Biden, even say that you're going to vote for Biden in bold, underlined, rainbow colors. People will react as if you're personally taking democracy out back, you'll be called a Russian operative, etc.

There are many people who have decided that since democracy is at stake, they must police all criticism of Biden and treat it with extreme suspicion and hostility. You can disagree or ignore it, but it's happening.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

The basic reality that youre fabricating and exaggerating?

Am I fabricating it from whole cloth or exaggerating what is there? Am I making up posts or am I ascribing too much weight to real posts? Make up your mind.