Current Events > If Biden loses the election, he has nobody to blame but himself

(+) Yeah! (+)

Will_VIIII posted...

Like do we really gotta explain cause and effect here?

No. You need to explain by what logic non-voters bear more responsibility for a candidate's actions, than voters do for their candidate's actions.

1337toothbrush posted...

You could put pressure on democrats to make a change by expressing criticism. Shutting down any and all criticism with "but the other guy" will ensure that democrats feel no need to change.

I don't see anyone saying that people SHOULDN'T be pressuring Biden/democrats to do better.

Also, that option isn't on my ballot box.

1337toothbrush posted...

You could put pressure on democrats to make a change by expressing criticism. Shutting down any and all criticism with "but the other guy" will ensure that democrats feel no need to change.

Its never fucking criticism that gets shut down. Criticize him all you like.

Its floating the idea of not voting for him that people rightfully shut down. Stop being disingenuous.

Heineken14 posted...

Explain to me what my options are here then. I get out my ballot that is mailed to me for presidential elections. What do I choose to have the best outcome not only for my country but for Palestinians as well?

Don't you know that if enough people don't vote for either candidate, a wizard appears on the Capitol steps and waves a magic wand that calls forth elves and fairies to fix the world?

Trumble posted...

No. You need to explain by what logic non-voters bear more responsibility for a candidate's actions, than voters do for their candidate's actions.

You have not answered my question.

Explain to me what my options are here then. I get out my ballot that is mailed to me for presidential elections. What do I choose to have the best outcome not only for my country but for Palestinians as well?

hockeybabe89 posted...

You are wrong about everything and you should move out of America if you can't handle easy decisions like voting against Trump.

He's from New Zealand.

"I hate Trump and everything he stands for, but I'm not gonna do something insane like vote for Joe Biden just to stop him! I need to love my other option! Better than Trump is not enough!"

McMarbles posted...

Don't you know that if enough people don't vote for either candidate, a wizard appears on the Capital steps and waves a magic wand that calls forth elves and fairies to fix the world?

Hes also the youngest candidate of all time and takes mental competence tests every 20 minutes

Heineken14 posted...

You have not answered my question.

Explain to me what my options are here then. I get out my ballot that is mailed to me for presidential elections. What do I choose to have the best outcome not only for my country but for Palestinians as well?

I've acknowledged there isn't really a good option, but it's still ridiculous to claim that people who support neither are responsible for the actions of the one you don't support but people who support your guy aren't responsible for anything he does.

Especially when most of them would be likely to vote for your guy if he wasn't such an utter despicable piece of shit on this particular issue.

Trumble posted...

No. You need to explain by what logic non-voters bear more responsibility for a candidate's actions, than voters do for their candidate's actions.

Got it. Trump being president again and Project 2025 are outcomes you can tolerate.

Will_VIIII posted...

Got it. Trump being president again and Project 2025 are outcomes you can tolerate.

Got it. Biden being president again and the Palestinian genocide are outcomes you can actively vote for.

Trumble posted...

No. You need to explain by what logic non-voters bear more responsibility for a candidate's actions, than voters do for their candidate's actions.

Not voting increases the probability of a Trump victory.

Trumble posted...

Got it. Biden being president again and the Palestinian genocide are outcomes you can actively vote for.

What options do people have when the go vote for a president that will prevent a genocide?

Heineken14 posted...

Explain to me what my options are here then. I get out my ballot that is mailed to me for presidential elections. What do I choose to have the best outcome not only for my country but for Palestinians as well?

That's in November. Why aren't you focused on what you can do between now and then? Is voting for Biden over Trump the only thing you're willing to do for Palestinians and your country?

wait this dude has such strong opinions about us elections and hes not even American?

Bruh

Trumble posted...

Got it. Biden being president again and the Palestinian genocide are outcomes you can actively vote for.

This both-sides false equivalency shit.

I also find it interesting that the people complaining about Biden supporting "genocide" (because by definition he actually isn't), they're going to enable the candidate that will make the situation significantly worse for said people.

MrMojoRising posted...

That's in November. Why aren't you focused on what you can do between now and then? Is voting for Biden over Trump the only thing you're willing to do for Palestinians and your country?

Because the topic is specifically about the election. I want to know what I am supposed to do. I am being told I am enabling a genocide by voting for Biden. What does one do when they go vote in November for a US president that will benefit America as well as stop the genocide in Palestine.

"When Biden loses the election, it'll be all his fault! Then maybe he'll see the error of his ways and support Palestine as a private citizen. Meanwhile, President Trump will allow Israel to bomb the ever loving fuck out of Gaza, killing even more civilians. But Joe Biden will have learned his lesson, and be entirely powerless to stop it. Women will lose their reproductive rights at an ever alarming rate, the Supreme Court will be solidly Republican for the next 50 years, and all will be right with the world because we taught an 80 year old man who is now a private citizen with no real power a lesson. Oh and trans kids will be in great danger. But that doesn't matter to me! Gaza is the ONLY issue. In fact, if Trump opposed Israel, I'd vote for him probably. Even if he is threatening to take away women's rights."

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

wait this dude has such strong opinions about us elections and hes not even American?

Bruh

Yep.

Makes you think.

Will_VIIII posted...

I also find it interesting that the people complaining about Biden supporting "genocide" (because by definition he actually isn't), they're going to enable the candidate that will make the situation significantly worse for said people.

we dont need to downplay Israels actions to prove a point

Will_VIIII posted...

I also find it interesting that the people complaining about Biden supporting "genocide" (because by definition he actually isn't), they're going to enable the candidate that will make the situation significantly worse for said people.

It's all a con game for these people. They want to stir confusion and discontent to ensure a catastrophic election.

havean776 posted...

But that's the thing they don't need to change because the other side really is that evil. I can't afford to take the moral high road when my friends lifes are at stake. It's nice you don't have that problem but understand we are not all as lucky as you.

Toothbrush will just say "Then Biden needs to earn our votes" and some shit about how there'll always be a fascist to vote against and that's why the Dems won't change until they lose.

If a few elections don't happen and a few human rights are removed, they see that as a small price to pay to send a message to DC Democrats

LightningThief posted...

@legendary_zell
Which would still be partial blame to the people who are actively defending or participating in not voting, voting 3rd party, or voting for Trump.

Don't complain about things for Muslims and Palestinians getting more worse in Gaza or here in the United States if you are advocating for others to stay home or go 3rd party or vote Trump.

You say they aren't arguing "same thing both sides" but regardless their action literally is not even comprehending Trump winning is even more terrible for Palestinians. This isn't a matter of simple nuance. No matter if you are madly in love with Trump or Biden, or not.... one of those 2 people are going to win. Trump or Biden is going to be the next president in 2025, whether you like everything they've done or not, that's just reality.

That's not even getting into the list of other things like Abortion, LGBT, Trump wanting to be dictator, Trumls sycophants wanting to usher in christ totalitarian rule, etc. Because not voting at all and telling others "it doesn't matter who wins" already says you are "both sides the same"ing this to justify not voting.

We can literally set those other major issues aside as if you dont care about those things and focus just on Palestinians, Muslims and Gaza. Trump actively wants to do far more harm to Palestinians and Muslims both here in America and in Gaza. Even if we entertain "genocide Joe", the comparison between the 2 are not even close to being the same yet the spin is to desperately argue they are.

So like it or not, doing nothing is helping Trump, who will in fact make life even more worse for those people you claim to care about.

I'm not advocating for that. You deflect to those people in each topic on this, but I don't think I've seen anyone do that here. You never respond to the arguments I actually make because they're extremely uncomfortable to confront. I know, because I've gone back and forth on them in my head in an effort to do the right thing. And in doing so, I've come to the same practical conclusion as you, but you must understand that many people wont and you have to understand why. And it's not for the reasons you've stated.

When you tell people that by participating in the political system, they have no option but to do evil, they MUST vote for genocide no matter who they vote for, many many people will just opt out of that, become radicalized, they'll do the opposite of what we want. That shit isn't free, it has effects that we can't even fathom. That's why it's incumbent on us to not even try to make people swallow that vision of politics and to offer a different one where collective action can affect things for the better.

They understand that Trump is worse. Please understand that. It's incredibly insulting, alienating, and condescending when you insist that people don't get that. As I've said a trillion times, that's not the issue. The issue is whether Biden is bad enough that people give up on the whole concept of voting, political participation, etc.

I feel like it fundamentally comes down to not truly understanding or believing that people think a historical atrocity is happening. People deeply believe that and are horrified by it. When you're talking about "more or less harm" when the mass starvation of people is already currently happening and we're expected to pull a lever in favor of that because the other guy would just nuke them....what kind of system is that? That's a fundamentally irrational situation, you're going to get weird responses to that. That dynamic is the problem and it's what must ultimately be changed. They're not the same, but both are bad enough to blackpill people and that's all it takes. Do you get that?

havean776 posted...

But that's the thing they don't need to change because the other side really is that evil. I can't afford to take the moral high road when my friends lifes are at stake. It's nice you don't have that problem but understand we are not all as lucky as you.

You say this while Palestinians are actively being genocided with full support from biden. Kindly shut the fuck up about privilege.

Heineken14 posted...

I don't see anyone saying that people SHOULDN'T be pressuring Biden/democrats to do better.

Also, that option isn't on my ballot box.

I mean you're doing it right now by downplaying criticisms with an immediate "but the ballot box". We're all aware of the two-party system that democrats and republicans BOTH love and get all their power from. Bringing up the two-party system that democrats use to their advantage to have that "but the other guy" argument in the first place does nothing other than to deflect responsibility.

Will_VIIII posted...

I also find it interesting that the people complaining about Biden supporting "genocide" (because by definition he actually isn't), they're going to enable the candidate that will make the situation significantly worse for said people.

Oh you're outright denying the genocide now? Yeah, okay, your posts make a lot more sense now. Tagged.

Heineken14 posted...

Because the topic is specifically about the election. I want to know what I am supposed to do. I am being told I am enabling a genocide by voting for Biden. What does one do when they go vote in November for a US president that will benefit America as well as stop the genocide in Palestine.

The cool thing about voting is that you don't actually have to decide who you're going to vote for until November. You can just send the message to Biden and everyone you know that if Biden continues this, he doesn't have your vote. The more people register their discontent, the more pressure they'll feel to change track.

Now when November comes, you look at what he's done and you have to make a choice. But beating people over the head 7 months before the election because they won't already be committed to voting for a genocide enabler is probably not the smartest way to go about it imo

Will_VIIII posted...

I also find it interesting that the people complaining about Biden supporting "genocide" (because by definition he actually isn't), they're going to enable the candidate that will make the situation significantly worse for said people.

Their fixation on Israel is sickening. Why should we even recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel?

Toothbrush once called me a Putin supporter because I said Bernie wasnt popular enough with voters to win a primary

Trumble posted...

Oh you're outright denying the genocide now? Yeah, okay, your posts make a lot more sense now. Tagged.

You're not using that word correctly.

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Biden is not doing this.

1337toothbrush posted...

You could put pressure on democrats to make a change by expressing criticism. Shutting down any and all criticism with "but the other guy" will ensure that democrats feel no need to change.

doesn't work when you are threatening to have instead a guy who supports genocide, a muslim ban and is friend of Nazis

what message are you putting forth exactly?

mistymermaid posted...

Their fixation on Israel is sickening. Why should we even recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel?

It shouldn't be recognized, but that's a less critical issue. If we can stop the genocide and ensure equal rights for everyone there, and put the current administration behind bars where they belong, whether it continues to exist as a recognized state is a far less significant concern.

Will_VIIII posted...

I also find it interesting that the people complaining about Biden supporting "genocide" (because by definition he actually isn't), they're going to enable the candidate that will make the situation significantly worse for said people.

This is what I mean. You simply think it's not happening, so you can't fathom the reactions of people who feel deep in their bones that it is. Who are living it. I wish you'd tell my lifelong Democrat Palestinian friend posting desperate messages on Facebook every day about the family, friends, staff members etc that he's losing that it's technically not a genocide because reasons and that he's naive for wanting to pressure the guy currently sending the bombs that did all that.

Will_VIIII posted...

You're not using that word correctly.

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Biden is not doing this.

He is actively supporting and facilitating it, through the provision of weapons and the obstruction of efforts to stop it.

"Biden I dislike what you are doing with Israel so instead I will let Trump win who is worse than you on Israel and will ban Muslims and empower Nazis!"

strange message

Trumble posted...

It shouldn't be recognized, but that's a less critical issue. If we can stop the genocide and ensure equal rights for everyone there, and put the current administration behind bars where they belong, whether it continues to exist as a recognized state is a far less significant concern.

For once decency in this thread.

1337toothbrush posted...

I mean you're doing it right now by downplaying criticisms with an immediate "but the ballot box".

But it's not downplaying it. Shit in Palestine is turbo fucked and Biden is doing horrible with it and should do better. The problem is though... our hands are incredibly tied in what we can do to make it better, because...

1337toothbrush posted...

We're all aware of the two-party system...

...I have very serious doubts about that.

ok so again, the solution here is to let the guy who would make the situation significantly worse, and make things significantly worse for a number of US citizens become president?

Let's be real, its Biden VS Trump at this point. What's the solution here when only 1 of these 2 are going to be the president in 2025?

Kingfrost posted...

"When Biden loses the election, it'll be all his fault! Then maybe he'll see the error of his ways and support Palestine as a private citizen. Meanwhile, President Trump will allow Israel to bomb the ever loving fuck out of Gaza, killing even more civilians. But Joe Biden will have learned his lesson, and be entirely powerless to stop it. Women will lose their reproductive rights at an ever alarming rate, the Supreme Court will be solidly Republican for the next 50 years, and all will be right with the world because we taught an 80 year old man who is now a private citizen with no real power a lesson. Oh and trans kids will be in great danger. But that doesn't matter to me! Gaza is the ONLY issue. In fact, if Trump opposed Israel, I'd vote for him probably. Even if he is threatening to take away women's rights."

This is actually how these people think. They'll roll their eyes and tell you that Trump will be a slightly worse Biden and all this worrying about the fate of America is fearmongering.

They'd absolutely vote for Trump if he said he'd cut support to Israel.

Will_VIIII posted...

You're not using that word correctly.

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Biden is not doing this.

"He's not technically flying the planes and dropping the bombs himself QED!!!!"

You can tell you're winning an argument when you choose to fight on insignificant technicalities and semantics.

Will_VIIII posted...

ok so again, the solution here is to let the guy who would make the situation significantly worse, and make things significantly worse for a number of US citizens become president?

Let's be real, its Biden VS Trump at this point. What's the solution here when only 1 of these 2 are going to be the president in 2025?

Exactly. If you are worried about a dog biting a kid you don't then go out and put a wolf with the kid instead.

Unless you are incompetent or malicious

legendary_zell posted...

You deflect to those people in each topic on this, but I don't think I've seen anyone do that here.

I know you endorse and are voting for Biden

But are you not seeing what these other people are posting? They advocate for not voting all the time.

1337toothbrush posted...

"He's not technically flying the planes and dropping the bombs himself QED!!!!"

You can tell you're winning an argument when you choose to fight on insignificant technicalities and semantics.

Given that he's outright trying to deny the genocide now, I wouldn't even bother engaging him. Tag, mark, and move on.

And for the record I don't support how Biden has been handling this particular situation but calling his direct actions genocide continues to be hyperbole

Every US President of our lifetime has facilitated the genocide of Palestinians.

MrMojoRising posted...

The cool thing about voting is that you don't actually have to decide who you're going to vote for until November. You can just send the message to Biden and everyone you know that if Biden continues this, he doesn't have your vote. The more people register their discontent, the more pressure they'll feel to change track.

Now when November comes, you look at what he's done and you have to make a choice. But beating people over the head 7 months before the election because they won't already be committed to voting for a genocide enabler is probably not the smartest way to go about it imo

Cool, where did I say people SHOULDN'T be pressuring Biden to do better?

You're still ignoring the question though. Biden or Trump will 100% be our next president. I want to vote for the betterment of America and also prevent bad shit around the world from happening as well if possible. Which option do I choose?

I think the point being made boils down to "I refuse to accept the notion of moderate genocide versus worse genocide so I will no longer participate in the political process because it is not an effective way or changing things if we get genocide either way"

This is what I've gathered from talking to people who talk about abstaining from voting but even that requires the context of it depending on which state and which district and if abstention from the Presidency means abstention from other races.

I don't really identify with it because I think Trump would be magnitudes worse and would assure a kleptocracy for the next few decades. Texas is technically competitive now so I feel obligated to vote for Biden, but people have been warning Dems for nearly a year that Biden's numbers are specifically terrible in polling and the assured improvements haven't come.

Biden did pretty well in the WI primary this week and WI is a swing state.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Every US President of our lifetime has facilitated the genocide of Palestinians.

so we better boycott every Democrat!

Will_VIIII posted...

And for the record I don't support how Biden has been handling this particular situation but calling his direct actions genocide continues to be hyperbole

This is sad. You used to be a good person.