Current Events > At what age did you "give up" on religious stuff?

(+) Yeah! (+)

There is nothing proving that Christ is the son of God. I could come out 30 years later and say I'm the Son of God. Every one of the miracles can be faked. His disciples all wrote stuff but there is inconsistencies all over the place. Paul's sections we know there's records of that. Christ all we get is some stories and a real world record say this man lived here and was persecuted and cruxcifed. Who to question the validity of it. Oh I can go into the council's in the 3rd century if you want.

mybbqrules posted...

Whatever age I learned that pastors were routinely sexually assaulting kids and higher ups in the church were shuffling them around and hiding it.

My primary school was next to a church and the chaplain lived across from the church, and the guy routinely invited kids for candy. I dont know if he actually did stuff then but its the most clich thing you can think of. Parents started asking questions when on a sports day he got a bit too handsy during soccer and eventually he was gone. Apparently he got promoted away somewhere. Turns out he got transferred to a school as a religion teacher and what do you know, dude actually raped a kid. Excuse the shitty auto translate.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e6122cf1.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/718daecd.jpg

The pastor who protected him was also the same pastor who barged into my parents home because they lived together unmarried and that was a sin. Swine.

Kradek posted...

Could I get some elaboration? This is a pretty interesting premise.

It was a very lengthy bout of high school drama. As a precursor, by my junior high years, I was frustrated with the non-answers I was getting from the leaders at my church (I was raised Lutheran, and they were not particularly well versed in apologetics). So I was essentially already on my way out as a Christian due to my doubts and questions.

Regarding my best friend, we grew up very close, but distanced during that "boys/girls are icky" phase of middle school. We became close again in high school.

Cut forward a little bit to my junior year, and my mental health is in a complete free fall unrelated to those religious frustrations. My friend, who recently had reignited her faith (Pentecostal, of the tongue-speaking variety), felt very strongly that I should join her, and I did for a while. I would like to think I was genuine in my efforts, and I did feel some comfort for a time.

That held out until just after graduation. My friend was constantly in arguments with a classmate who enjoyed pushing her buttons on religion. I steered clear of those because I liked the guy despite him occasionally going a bit too far in antagonizing her. But about two weeks after graduation, he sends me a whole bunch of Facebook screenshots of him and my friend arguing online showing her repeatedly referencing me as evidence of her being correct. Essentially saying things like "even the smartest guy in our class believes," "God cured his depression," etc. She aired a whole lot of my personal troubles that I confided in her about, and it made me feel like I was a trophy more than a friend. Coupled with some other rifts that had developed between us, I was hurt. I confronted her about those screenshots and other issues, but she just blew me off. She blocked me shortly thereafter, and we went our separate ways.

A very abridged summary, as I don't like to dwell too much on that part of my life. In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't some horrible betrayal (more of a "don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity/immaturity" moment), but it did show the problems that can arise when people prioritize evangelism over treating others like people.

When I started high school and learned proper science. I stopped going to church then.

I gave up on religious stuff after a couple days at Sunday school when I was like 5. Parents were never religious, I cried every Sunday because I didn't like it, and that was that. Never entertained the notion of religion as part of my life since.

Toonstrack posted...

If only this story gave a long snd detailed explanation as to why humans started going from bad to worse over time.... oh wait it does and it gas nothing to do with God creating them

Lol once again your mental gymnastics tries to ignore those flaws were either intentionally or accidentally created.

It has everything to do with your God as all creation including things that went wrong were thanks to your God's fundamental design. This includes any rogue elements that soured his creation as those rogue elements are also his creation. Which again goes to whether he is capable and willing to fix those rogue elements.

Toonstrack posted...

He created something without flaws. What he didn't create was robots without free will.

Then he created something that wasn't flawless. No need to finish the rest of that paragraph you wasted time typing.

Your argument is reaching comedic levels of gymnastics. If something is flawless, that means it has no flaws. It cant be soured, tainted, poisoned or whatever if its flawless. The fact that "free will" can cause awful things by default says he created something with flaws.

That's not even getting into things like cancer, disease and even body design objectively have flaws which has nothing to do with "free will." There are species on this earth that are extinct which has nothing to do with "free will." Or the very good point Torgo made in Post 157.

Those are flaws. You are just going through a mental gymnastics because critical thinking is taboo to those who want to have it both ways.

Toonstrack posted...

No it doesn't say that hahaha. Please site a scripture that says God baked flaws into the design of humans?

I don't need to as I have something you lack. Critical thinking skills.

If as you say God created all, this includes the fundemental capabilities of what God would consider to be sin. Intentional or unintentional, your God created something that had flaws. It doesn't matter what your scripture says. If God created all as you say, then accountability is on the creator for any bugs and flaws that arise in that creation.

If your God is real, whether it's intentional or not..... your God either chooses not to fix the major flaws that yes God created, or lacks the power to fix the flaws God created. With the latter meaning God isn't as all powerful as you think.

Toonstrack posted...

I've seen all sorts of reasons people aren't religious. Some completely understandable. Some that say more about the individual than it does any God. Some that make sense some don't. This one you're presenting is just a complete misunderstanding of events, and again there's atheists who could correct you on this.

I'm not misunderstanding anything. You're just going through a gymnastics to want it both ways that your all powerful, all loving, all caring, all omnipotent God created a flawless universe....... that has a bunch flaws like natural disasters, baby cancers, free will (that God created), and more....... but the all loving and caring God chooses not to fix those flaws or is not capable of fixing the flaws God created.

You are right there are many reasons people dropped religion. Critical thinking skills growing in society to question basic contradicting stories/beliefs being one of them. The rise of science giving logical explanations to what faith used to explain away is part of that critical thinking.

People like you are unwilling to question anything your faith says, or rather it's more like you are highly selective what part of the faith you will follow given your scripture is full of holes, bigotry, savagery, and even supernatural phenomenon that we humans have later found a scientific explanation for. In otherwords, not supernatural.

Toonstrack posted...

They were created intentionally, but not by him.

Read the entire sentence. Entertaining hes real:
Those flaws were either intentionally or accidentally created and intentionally never fixed, in otherwords doesnt care to fix it;
Or those flaws were intentionally or accidentally created and he's incapable of fixing it.

Regardless your God fundamentally created a universe and creatures with flaws.

LightningThief posted...

Then it he created something that wasn't flawless. No need to finish the rest of that paragraph you wasted time typing.

Your argument is reaching comedic levels of gymnastics. If something is flawless, that means it has no flaws. The fact that "free will" can cause awful things by default says he created something with flaws.

That's not even getting into things like cancer, disease and even body design objectively have flaws which has nothing to do with "free will." There are species on this earth that are extinct which has nothing to do with "free will."

Then on top of that there's the philosophical implications of a god that is all knowing, all powerful, and timeless having foreknowledge of all creation through all time with the power to change it at will - being at odds with the very concept that freewill could exist for fleeting, mortal beings like us.

The implication being that this god would know every minuscule detail of every moment of your life the instant he willed the universe into existence or he is not all-knowing and timeless. You will be saved or damned according to their own dogma and rules before you think your first thought.

Torgo posted...

Then on top of that there's the philosophical implications of a god that is all knowing, all powerful, and timeless having foreknowledge of all creation through all time with the power to change it at will - being at odds with the very concept that freewill could exist for fleeting, mortal beings like us.

The implication being that this god would know every minuscule detail of every moment of your life the instant he willed the universe into existence or he is not all-knowing and timeless. You will be saved or damned according to their own dogma and rules before you think your first thought.

This as well.

Toonstrack posted...

atheists

For the record btw, I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. The 2 aren't the same as the former firmly argues they know 100% there is no God.

I'm of the stance that I'm open to the possibility A God existing, I just need solid proof.

I just don't believe in any human constructs of God, which includes any scripture claiming "God" in some way wrote it. Which all the popular ones have either contradictions or want you to have it both ways ignoring even little critical thinking skills.

Must have been in high school but don't quite remember when the switch got flipped. I remember being scared god was going to punish me for things in jr. high.

LightningThief posted...

For the record btw, I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. The 2 aren't the same as the former firmly argues they know 100% there is no God.

I think the modern interpretation of what is an atheist or agnostic is kind of blurred.

I consider myself an atheist, but with the understanding that ultimately a hidden god is un-falsifiable and therefore theologically useless to anyone, and it's quite possible every religion is wrong but there still is some divine power we have been unable to detect but could be detected eventually. Even then...how could we know what we're even talking about until then anyway?

But in day to day relating to the world, I don't see any reason to believe a god proposition over any other fantastical musing like ancient space aliens, or that we're just part of a dream or simulation.

ThePieReborn posted...

It was a very lengthy bout of high school drama. As a precursor, by my junior high years, I was frustrated with the non-answers I was getting from the leaders at my church (I was raised Lutheran, and they were not particularly well versed in apologetics). So I was essentially already on my way out as a Christian due to my doubts and questions.

Regarding my best friend, we grew up very close, but distanced during that "boys/girls are icky" phase of middle school. We became close again in high school.

Cut forward a little bit to my junior year, and my mental health is in a complete free fall unrelated to those religious frustrations. My friend, who recently had reignited her faith (Pentecostal, of the tongue-speaking variety), felt very strongly that I should join her, and I did for a while. I would like to think I was genuine in my efforts, and I did feel some comfort for a time.

That held out until just after graduation. My friend was constantly in arguments with a classmate who enjoyed pushing her buttons on religion. I steered clear of those because I liked the guy despite him occasionally going a bit too far in antagonizing her. But about two weeks after graduation, he sends me a whole bunch of Facebook screenshots of him and my friend arguing online showing her repeatedly referencing me as evidence of her being correct. Essentially saying things like "even the smartest guy in our class believes," "God cured his depression," etc. She aired a whole lot of my personal troubles that I confided in her about, and it made me feel like I was a trophy more than a friend. Coupled with some other rifts that had developed between us, I was hurt. I confronted her about those screenshots and other issues, but she just blew me off. She blocked me shortly thereafter, and we went our separate ways.

A very abridged summary, as I don't like to dwell too much on that part of my life. In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't some horrible betrayal (more of a "don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity/immaturity" moment), but it did show the problems that can arise when people prioritize evangelism over treating others like people.

Damn, sorry to hear that. Based off the way you referred to yourself as a prop I was thinking it was more of a like debate in front of a class/school where she used you without telling you how she'd use you in front of everybody just to "own the atheist guy".

That's way more of a personal betrayal because of the way she shared the stuff you confided into her just to "own that atheist guy".

I'd say you're better off without her. This one girl I used to like in high school would always argue with me on AIM. When I finally asked her why she told me "I use these as practice arguments for future arguments later". Like, fuck you for that, I wanted us to get closer and here you are making normal conversation impossible for practice. Trash people will do trashy things.

Kradek posted...

Damn, sorry to hear that. Based off the way you referred to yourself as a prop I was thinking it was more of a like debate in front of a class/school where she used you without telling you how she'd use you in front of everybody just to "own the atheist guy".

That's way more of a personal betrayal because of the way she shared the stuff you confided into her just to "own that atheist guy".

I'd say you're better off without her. This one girl I used to like in high school would always argue with me on AIM. When I finally asked her why she told me "I use these as practice arguments for future arguments later". Like, fuck you for that, I wanted us to get closer and here you are making normal conversation impossible for practice. Trash people will do trashy things.

I agree with you on that. There were some other things that happened in connection with our going to church together that, looking back now (and with the help of the people I've spoken to about her), clearly demonstrate that she was taking advantage of me. Whether that was knowingly or not, I cannot say.

Suffice it to say, she is one of two causes behind my discomfort around women my age. I've had the good fortune to meet someone recently that I felt comfortable to shoot my shot with, and although she didn't feel the same, we've been able to become better friends as a result. So, progress, little as it may be.

ThePieReborn posted...

I agree with you on that. There were some other things that happened in connection with our going to church together that, looking back now (and with the help of the people I've spoken to about her), clearly demonstrate that she was taking advantage of me. Whether that was knowingly or not, I cannot say.

Suffice it to say, she is one of two causes behind my discomfort around women my age. I've had the good fortune to meet someone recently that I felt comfortable to shoot my shot with, and although she didn't feel the same, we've been able to become better friends as a result. So, progress, little as it may be.

Sorry to hear that. I'm glad you are making progress and I hope that friend eventually decides she wants to be more. Despite the whole "friendzone" stigma, I choose to believe that a friendship can develop into more over time when they start to truly understand your value and what that would mean for them.

LightningThief posted...

Lol once again your mental gymnastics tries to ignore those flaws were either intentionally or accidentally created.

I didnt ignore that.

It has everything to do with your God as all creation including things that went wrong were thanks to your God's fundamental design.
Your argument is reaching comedic levels of gymnastics. If something is flawless, that means it has no flaws. It cant be soured, tainted, poisoned or whatever if its flawless. The fact that "free will" can cause awful things by default says he created something with flaws..

So you are actually arguing he should have made humans without free will so that way he could say they were flawless. Hilarious.

What you fail to understand is having the capacity for flaw is not the same thing as being flawed. That has never and will never be the case.

A flaw is a flaw, already present. Free will is not a flaw. Free will means you can do what you want, for good or for nil. Thats an essential element of this entire thing, because by the same logic, God could not be "all loving" if he creates beings that can only love him because they have too. You've already reached the end of rhe conundrum you've built and you can see that. It makes no sense.

You're arguing its bad for him to punish bad people, but it would be good for him to be a tyrant who doesn't allow anyone to act as they wish.

I don't need to as I have something you lack. Critical thinking skills.

If as you say God created all, this includes the fundemental capabilities of what God would consider to be sin. Intentional or unintentional, your God created something that had flaws. It doesn't matter what your scripture says.

Lmfao so you admit you're arguing in bad faith. Its quite clear why you can't cite anything, and why you dismiss the very thing you're trying to argue. Because this version of God you're arguing is one you made up. You are simply calling it "critical thinking" instead of "implicit bias and inserted narratives". No, the capacity for things to do evil is not a flaw. A fire is not flawed because it can cause harm. Its one of our most important resources because it can do that. If it couldn't do that, we couldn't use it. It's dangerous, but it is not flawed. You can USE it in a flawed way, that doesnt mean it is flawed. It burns the tree, so that we heat food. It burns the food, so that we can cook it. It kills bacteria so that we don't get sick when we eat.

Free will is the same. It allows the capacity for great harm, it can be used in the service of flaws, it itself is not a design flaw.

I'm not misunderstanding anything. You're just going through a gymnastics

No, im going through the actual source we are discussing while you are trying to throw it out and assert your own made up version. Im just not playing along.

You are right there are many reasons people dropped religion. Critical thinking skills growing in society to question basic contradicting stories/beliefs being one of them. The rise of science giving logical explanations to what faith used to explain away is part of that critical thinking.

If your arguing humans have become more logical, i must laugh. I mean, look around you. Does this look like a haven of critical thinking and logic? Is that what you see in the world today?

The world humans built and the people in it are anything but. Peopke don't use critical thinking skills at all. People lack basic empathy in ways heretofore unforseen. The thing YOU put your faith in us humans. And they have given far more reason not to put faith in them than almost any God you could cite, so that alone is not logical. You just want to blame their failings on religion instead of human nature, but still have your cake and eat it too and put the faith in humans to solve these problems. Even societies with no god fall to the same pitfalls humanity always falls to.

So you aren't arguing for critical thinking. You aren't arguing for logic. You're arguing for convenience. Because of there is a god, then you're accountable. But if there's not, you can see the objective state of humanity and how much of a failure it is, and still gymnastics your way into thinking humans are reliable to define the problems they created.

Its ironically the same argument you're claiming im making. You see the flaws man has intentionally made, but you still want to believe they are qualified to fix those problems. And all the same, that's not critical thinking. That's illogical thinking. Faith based even.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Many if not most people are fine with cspital punishment under certain conditions yes. I've listed them; you've dogded them.

And what you are doing now is a false equivalency. The Christian god wasn't fighting Nazis on Earth to stop them from killing him in a brutal way.

But according to you, even if he was that would he evil. So which is it?

When we describe a god as being benevolent, it's actually omnibenevolent. Do you understand the etymology of the word? It means "All goodwill." And when we ascribe that to a god, it's often described as all loving. You are incredibly wrong here because if you accept this, it fucks up your narrative.

Im not wrong. To make your case, you gave to pick apart words and insert antiquated meanings. You even ackneodged God never describes himself as benevolent. So you're holding him to a claim YOURE making, not an actual characteristic he described himself as. The reality is right there in the stories. He never claimed to be "all good will" from day one he told the first two people "you go against me, you are going to die".

You are very clearly now removing any and all content to now argue some hypothetical fictional version of God that claims free love and forgiveness for all without limit. That version isn't real, you're making him up. Thats the reality ash. Neither catholics, Mormons, protestants, Episcopalians, no one says this os i have no idea where you're conjuring this from.

And this is where I'm not continuing the conversation with you. If you think that we can't have a discussion around the flaws of the Christian god with you pulling this sort of shit, then there is no conversation to be had. This is you grasping at straws.

The only one grasping at straws is you. You're taking a supposed word from one of God's FOLLOWERS from some unknown translation of the scriptures, saying that this is justification to dismiss the entirety of gods own testament regarding his characteristics and make claims about him that literally don't line up with the story, or any normal deocifon of God according to those stories.

Its bad faith straight up.

Toonstrack posted...

I didnt ignore that.

Bro, you've been ignoring a lot itt.

You are too far gone lol

Logic and critical thinking is never your types friend. My fault for even indulging a conversation with your type for this long.

Toonstrack posted...

To make your case, you [h]ave to pick apart words and insert antiquated meanings.

That's what every sect of religion has to do with every ancient religious text. In fact, that's exactly why there are differing sects of religion.

God never describes himself

Correct.

a supposed word from ... God's FOLLOWERS

That's the entirety of the Bible.

gods own testament

Doesn't exist. Every statement attributed to God was written by humans as flawed and unreliable as anyone.

Faith is a powerful thing.

maxpkmf posted...

Faith is a powerful thing.

You are 100% correct there lol.

LightningThief posted...

You are too far gone lol.

You are claiming he made something flawlessly while in the same breath twisting into a pretzel the thing you claim he made flawless was created with the flaw of free will, which in itself is a major flaw.

Free will isnt a flaw. It just isn't.

If you have to argue AGAINST feee will being a thing to make your point, YOU are too far gone dude.

That's not even getting into you ignoring the other flaws I mentioned that have nothing to do with free will at all, like disease, natural disasters, natural extinction, and etc that harms innocent creatures and life.

Those are only "flaws" if you think a "flaw" means "can potentially hurt someone" and that isnt a flaw lmao.

Thunderstorms can be dangerous, they also help plant life grow and utilize forces that we use to generate electricity. The friggin sun can hurt you, but its necessary for life. Natural fires are destructive and dangerous but they facilitate rebirth and growth in an ecosystem. Volcanos melt snd burn but they create islands.

You think the only version of God that could exist is one that only creates, never facilitates destruction; thats nonsensical. Death is natural, destruction and entropy are as much parts of the universe as life is. Those aren't "flaws", just because you dont like when they happen. That's applying a human characteristic to a fact of the universe, as if the universe can be morally judged. Is it also a "flaw" that humans cant fly, so if i jump off a cliff i will fall to the ground because the forces of gravity says so?

The human experience alone barely makes a fraction of earth's history. Humans are only 0.007% of the entire history of the planet of over billions of years. Which I know for you is pointless for me to point out, but should really give some retrospective on so many levels including other life forms that aren't so lucky. Including life that came before humans which again, by design is a cruel flaw.

If humanity is one of these flaws, then how can you believe them capable of fixing the problems with the powers of "human critical thinking" and "human logic"? You cant have it both ways. If humanity is the flaw, then the flawed then cant also be the solution. You said that yourself when discussing God but seem to believe we are an exception to this rule.

Logic and critical thinking is never your types friend.

It is, and thats why your logic is betraying you on your own word and mine is not.

To make your points you've had to argue against the concept of free will, blame God for humanities flaws, admit that humanity is flawed itself, but that humanity can fix those flaws. It doesn't track, it doesnt line up. You've dismissed the very source of the topic you're discussing to asser your own arbitrary view of him, then to demand i also discuss this arbitrary version of the subject. Thats not critical thinking. Thats not logic. Thats doing what you're accusing religion of doing, picking and choosing.

I've taken YOUR version of "god" at to task on your own logic and it doesn't hold up under its own weight.

Villain_S_Fiend posted...

That's what every sect of religion has to do with every ancient religious text. In fact, that's exactly why there are differing sects of religion.

So you're arguing that this is the correct way to do things then? That ash is correct by assuming the tactics of religion to make her points? Kinda a self own.

Correct.

That's the entirety of the Bible.

Source?

Doesn't exist. Every statement attributed to God was written by humans as flawed and unreliable as anyone.

Then why should ash's be considered reliable?

You can't say "we can't rely on the bibles description of God to discuss God's characteristics, so instead we should rely on asherlees version and discuss that one"

Thats contradictory.

Toonstrack posted...

Source?

It's known that the Bible was written by man. Don't be so cavalier with your disingenuousness.

You can't say "we can't rely on the bibles description of God to discuss God's characteristics, so instead we should rely on asherlees version and discuss that one"

I didn't say anything about Asherlee's anything, so your rebuttal falls flat.

ThePieReborn posted...

That held out until just after graduation. My friend was constantly in arguments with a classmate who enjoyed pushing her buttons on religion. I steered clear of those because I liked the guy despite him occasionally going a bit too far in antagonizing her. But about two weeks after graduation, he sends me a whole bunch of Facebook screenshots of him and my friend arguing online showing her repeatedly referencing me as evidence of her being correct. Essentially saying things like "even the smartest guy in our class believes," "God cured his depression," etc. She aired a whole lot of my personal troubles that I confided in her about, and it made me feel like I was a trophy more than a friend. Coupled with some other rifts that had developed between us, I was hurt. I confronted her about those screenshots and other issues, but she just blew me off. She blocked me shortly thereafter, and we went our separate ways.

This is really shitty and I'm sorry that happened.

As a believer, she never should have been "having arguments" with this other kid who wanted to prod at her beliefs. We don't need to argue anything. God is good. We're grateful, we should share that love, with our actions. (this is not what saves us. God's grace saves us, our actions have ZERO to do with it)

I'm sure your entire relationship wasn't malicious, but it was definitely wrong of her to use you, exactly like you said, as a trophy to get the upper hand in an argument. An argument she shouldn't have been having.

It's a clue that it wasn't about God at all. Or if she started in the right place, she definitely fell off the wrong end somewhere on the line.

I was in a bible study at a church a few weeks ago, and the whole discussion was people talking about "apologetics" (which is a term I don't like anyway). I heard a woman say "I teach my kids to always defend their faith. If someone tries to use science to disprove God, I tell them to say 'Well were you there?" Because my God was.' " and people were nodding their head agreeing with her.

I had to jump in. I did my best to not be mean, but just to say "No." I explained that the most powerful thing you can do is not argue anything, but state your faith, that God is good because of what He has done. We don't need to argue with anyone.

By High school I was skipping sunday school/sermons, only staying the first 10-15 minutes because by then I had heard them all and could guess the lesson and bullshit my dad when he would ask me about it afterwards. Went to the unused building, stole teachers candy and read Fables comics and played Nintendo handhelds lol.