Current Events > Apparently direction indicators in games is a problem now.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Funkydog posted...

That's not true unfortunately.

They can't. Vast amounts of people have trouble with the basic concept of moving the camera or shooting and so need to be told point blank what to do.

yes they can the vast majority can beat games without hand holding just fine

Alucard188 posted...

Oh no, I absolutely hate when accessibility features break my immersion because I am the only person that matters. Imagine playing the original Final Fantasy VII without pointers and OSD guides to show you where all of the ladders and doors were.

it's not even hard

No it's hard

VeggetaX posted...

No it's hard

it's not, it's easy to see where all the ladders and doors are in the original FF7

No it's hard Why? Because I said so.

VeggetaX posted...

No it's hard Why? Because I said so.

it's not i beat the game without ever using it, i don't like how it gets in the way and i end up just forgetting it's there

VeggetaX posted...

No it's hard Why? Because I said so.

Yep. One person's experience does not invalidate another person's experience. That user may not have found it difficult, but I found it very annoying to traverse and find out where the fuck I was supposed to go, especially in the train graveyard.

Alucard188 posted...

Yep. One person's experience does not invalidate another person's experience. That user may not have found it difficult, but I found it very annoying to traverse and find out where the fuck I was supposed to go, especially in the train graveyard.

it wasn't that whole sequence is just easy trial and error and finding out is part of the fun,it's not like you were playing Tomb Raider or something

I hate it when people type like that first tweet. No punctuation and just some run-on sentence (on purpose too, they know how to write properly). Only annoying people do this.

Can you imagine if og castlevania did this. Hmm this secret wall is painted yellow. I wonder what happens if I whip it. Oh look a secret room.

Best outcome is to give the option of turning it off/on. Keep it off to figure it out on your own, turn it on if you get really stuck. This is the same argument as mandatory Exp Share in modern Pokemon games. Just give the players the option to turn it on and off.

One thing is a way point, another is to destroy art direction just because of the dumb sheep. At least make it optional instead of forcing it down our throats. again, this is why PC gaming is superior since you can mod this garbage out

xlr_big-coop posted...

One thing is a way point, another is to destroy art direction just because of the dumb sheep. At least make it optional instead of forcing it down our throats. again, this is why PC gaming is superior since you can mod this garbage out

RE4 remake is not art. They just ripped out the unique, meaningful elements from a great game and replaced them with generic bullshit to fit in with the rest of the trash in the modern AAA heap.

SauI_Goodman posted...

Can you imagine if og castlevania did this. Hmm this secret wall is painted yellow. I wonder what happens if I whip it. Oh look a secret room.

You do know that's a completely different genre, right?

This is literally exactly what I said assuming I was exaggerating before: people who played Super Metroid (ok fine, Castlevania) and assume every game can and needs to be Castlevania.

GeminiDeus posted...

Best outcome is to give the option of turning it off/on. Keep it off to figure it out on your own, turn it on if you get really stuck. This is the same argument as mandatory Exp Share in modern Pokemon games. Just give the players the option to turn it on and off.

The best outcome to remove sections that are so useless and unsubstantial that "Here's the exact thing to do" markers are even warranted.

NeonTentacles posted...

Why not just design the environment to be conducive to going the right way like they used to do

So hallways?

I think people tend to underestimate how much of this stuff we are just used to from experience that doesn't really otherwise make sense.

Like when you watch cartoons for long enough you notice when something on a shelf is going to be grabbed because it looks slightly different. A lot of video game is designed logically like that.

Why can't I go down that corridor? Because there's a table blocking the way. Why can't I open that door? Because the door handle is missing for some reason. It makes sense to us but it doesn't really have something that's universal and easy to understand if you don't know. Why can't the player go under the table or kick the door open?

Stuff like this isn't just 'You can go here' but also 'only try to climb cliffs with stuff like that on it'

Even if someone has no experience at all they can see the yellow paint stick out and think that maybe they can do something there.

Final Fantasy doesn't even usually have climbing to begin with. So makes sense why they'd go with such an obvious design even if it looks dumb.

I haven't played Horizon Forbidden West but I seem to recall readability for which cliffs you can and can't climb was brought up as an issue.

Oh boi I can't wait to play DOoM 20i6 with the green navigation lights turned off

You guys are gonna look like real goobers when halfway through the game you meet Paintingway, the rabbit-like NPC who paints ledges to guide players along their journey.

xlr_big-coop posted...

One thing is a way point, another is to destroy art direction just because of the dumb sheep. At least make it optional instead of forcing it down our throats. again, this is why PC gaming is superior since you can mod this garbage out

That irony of calling something art yet disagree with the artist choice.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

it's not, the navigation is good

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

nope, there's nothing bad about the navigation

It's wild to me that you can have devs pointing out that testing has discovered that stuff like this is absolutely necessary to some degree every time it comes up and you'll still have know-it-all gamers going "Nuh-uh the devs are wroooong I'm the smartest!"

Murphiroth posted...

It's wild to me that you can have devs pointing out that testing has discovered that stuff like this is absolutely necessary to some degree every time it comes up and you'll still have know-it-all gamers going "Nuh-uh the devs are wroooong I'm the smartest!"

AAA development isn't known for always making the smartest choices. Just because something is technically a solution, that doesn't make it the best possible solution.

Nemu posted...

AAA development isn't known for always making the smartest choices. Just because something is technically a solution, that doesn't make it the best possible solution.

Didn't expect someone to rush in to prove my point but thanks!

Murphiroth posted...

Didn't expect someone to rush in to prove my point but thanks!

I guess if you want to simp for the same kind of people who have brought us shitty live service games, you do you.

Nemu posted...

I guess if you want to simp for the same kind of people who have brought us shitty live service games, you do you.

That's a bizarre extrapolation from my post. And publishers and corporate suits are far more responsible for live service games than the devs.

Never change, Gamer.

Murphiroth posted...

It's wild to me that you can have devs pointing out that testing has discovered that stuff like this is absolutely necessary to some degree every time it comes up and you'll still have know-it-all gamers going "Nuh-uh the devs are wroooong I'm the smartest!"

I think the problem is that theres either:

Better ways to do it.

Not about being accessible.

For the former, you can have ways to organically have players know to climb. Maybe a npc climbs the cliff ahead of you. Or something interactable can be seen at the top, implying its accessible. The RE example is a ladder. Feels pretty dumb, no?

For the latter, maybe discovering what to do is the point. If I dont have to think, then why add that elevation at all? If its just a loading buffer, then theres better ways to do that too.

Theres things that gamers just known. (Red canister? Shooting it means explosion) I dunno if random yellow paint even guides players that effectively.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

For the former, you can have ways to organically have players know to climb. Maybe a npc climbs the cliff ahead of you.

Isn't this game non-linear?

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Or something interactable can be seen at the top, implying its accessible.

But you're at the bottom of the cliff. What if the top can be seen from different angles.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

The RE example is a ladder. Feels pretty dumb, no?

The dumb thing is sometimes games have ladders that you can't climb.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Isn't this game non-linear?

FF7 Remake is completely linear.

But you're at the bottom of the cliff. What if the top can be seen from different angles.

Thats why you create the landscape so that it can be seen

The dumb thing is sometimes games have ladders that you can't climb.

Neat. And sometimes games have different colored objects that cant be climbed.

Unless youre trying to say a ladder is less effective of a climbing indicator than thing with yellow paint.

Every gamer will try to climb a ladder. Every non-gamer will assume a ladder is climbable.

Why even give pushback on the ladder thing?

cuttin_in_farm posted...

FF7 Remake is completely linear.

This topic is about the sequel Rebirth.

FFVII Remake didn't have yellow paint as far as I remember.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Thats why you create the landscape so that it can be seen

Is it normal for something valuable to always be seen at the top of a cliff? Don't you generally climb a cliff to see what's up there? Or are we designing a game to constantly go up and down valleys to they don't have to use yellow paint?

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Neat. And sometimes games have different colored objects that cant be climbed.

Which is why games use visual language like this to make it immediately obvious to the player what can be interacted with.

Yellow paint = you can climb or break this. It applies to everything within that game. It's immediately understandable at a glance. Most games are designed like this in some way.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Unless youre trying to say a ladder is less effective of a climbing indicator than thing with yellow paint.

A lot of the times? Yes.

A game like RE4 is filled with detail that isn't interactable with at all. The issue they likely had was that people were walking right by both the ladders and crates because they weren't sticking out compared to the stuff you are supposed to walk past.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Every gamer will try to climb a ladder. Every non-gamer will assume a ladder is climbable.

Many of them aren't. If a ladder isn't touching the ground or has a break halfway up it probably isn't climbable.

That's the problem with games. The visual language isn't always obvious to everyone.

What I don't get is this is like Video Game Design 101

There are tons of ways to nudge the player in the right direction without beating them over the head.

I mean, a game like Ocarina of Time made it perfectly obvious which walls were climbable and which weren't without putting garish yellow splotches all over them.

I'm so stuck in grim fandango rn

Year 4 sewer section. Already got inside casino and did slot machine thing

Idk what to do next. If only this game had full navigation systems.

I'll keep going without a guide tho for sure

Imagine if current aaa had this type of obtuse progression tho. Ppl will complain about it for sure

HylianFox posted...

What I don't get is this is like Video Game Design 101

There are tons of ways to nudge the player in the right direction without beating them over the head.

I mean, a game like Ocarina of Time made it perfectly obvious which walls were climbable and which weren't without putting garish yellow splotches all over them.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e8d04004.jpg

Regardless visually simplistic games don't need to do as much to draw the players eyes. It used to be a game could just put a universal ledge or crack in an otherwise blank wall and that would be all that was needed.

I'm willing to cut Mario 64 some slack because those worlds are supposed to be cartoonish

But having random yellow splotches on a "natural" cliff is just... no

Maybe leave it as an option to have or turn it off.

masterbarf posted...

RE4 remake is not art. They just ripped out the unique, meaningful elements from a great game and replaced them with generic bullshit to fit in with the rest of the trash in the modern AAA heap.

Absolutely agree with you there, I hated the remake and couldn't bring myself to finish it. Glad to see other people weren't fooled by the pretty visuals.

Ideally, video games should feature as little hand-holding as possible

It should up to the player 90% of the time to figure out where to go next, what can and cannot be interacted with, which item/weapon to use where, etc etc

It's more fun and more rewarding that way, and makes the player feel like they accomplished something.

Why create a video game if you don't want players to actually play it?

HylianFox posted...

Ideally, video games should feature as little hand-holding as possible

It should up to the player 90% of the time to figure out where to go next, what can and cannot be interacted with, which item/weapon to use where, etc etc

It's more fun and more rewarding that way, and makes the player feel like they accomplished something.

Why create a video game if you don't want players to actually play it?

Well why play a game thats too cryptic?

Smackems posted...

Tomb Raider 2013 is the first game I remember doing this. Maybe an assassin's creed did earlier but idk TR is the one in my brain

I think it originally comes from mmo's. Specifically World of Warcraft i believe.

Ricemills posted...

Let's remove any other indicators like life bar etc too

Only if you can wear a pain transmitter so you can feel exactly how your character does.

HylianFox posted...

Ideally, video games should feature as little hand-holding as possible

It should up to the player 90% of the time to figure out where to go next, what can and cannot be interacted with, which item/weapon to use where, etc etc

It's more fun and more rewarding that way, and makes the player feel like they accomplished something.

Why create a video game if you don't want players to actually play it?

Video games historically have always used visual language to tell the player what to do. Always.

I don't think you realise how much of it is already there because you're so used to it.

Sure yellow paint can look a bit silly. But there's lots of silly things in video games that are there because they're video games. Why do red barrels explode? Why do locked doors look different than doors I can go through? Why can I open up a chest in front of a bed but not look through a drawer? Why can't I climb out a window? Why can't I get through this barbed wire fence.

It's always been there. Hell even simple games like Streets of Rage had a beeping notification and a big GO arrow to tell you to move on.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Video games historically have always used visual language to tell the player what to do. Always.

I don't think you realise how much of it is already there because you're so used to it.

Sure yellow paint can look a bit silly. But there's lots of silly things in video games that are there because they're video games. Why do red barrels explode? Why do locked doors look different than doors I can go through? Why can I open up a chest in front of a bed but not look through a drawer? Why can't I climb out a window? Why can't I get through this barbed wire fence.

It's always been there. Hell even simple games like Streets of Rage had a beeping notification and a big GO arrow to tell you to move on.

There are a whole ton of varying reasons why those things are there, though, and they're at varying levels functional and appropriate. Take that GO signal in Streets of Rage. Slap it in Elden Ring. You think that's good?

Guide posted...

Take that GO signal in Streets of Rage. Slap it in Elden Ring. You think that's good?

Only if it doesn't actually explain anything.

Just a big yellow "GO"

Guide posted...

There are a whole ton of varying reasons why those things are there, though, and they're at varying levels functional and appropriate. Take that GO signal in Streets of Rage. Slap it in Elden Ring. You think that's good?

There's varying reasons why they decided to use yellow paint for FFVII Rebirth cliffs as well.

It's a more open world designed game. You usually can't climb cliffs in games like this. Yellow paint was probably their easiest solution. It means that no matter how far away from a cliff you are you can tell from a glance you can climb it and you can also tell from a glance the cliffs you can't climb.

Open world games are designed like theme parks with things to draw your eye to encourage the player to check it out. You can argue that yellow paint is a silly solution but at least it'll be a consistent one.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Yellow paint was probably their easiest solution.

You can argue that yellow paint is a silly solution

Yes, that is the point, that's what drives the criticism: It's lazy and dumb.

This bit from the Bulletstorm devs always makes me laugh.

https://twitter.com/PatStaresAt/status/1756805505631264946?s=20

Also

https://twitter.com/AVeryBigBnuy/status/1756715194598711643?s=20