Current Events > Is it Pippin's fault that ___ died? (LOTR spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I wanna see a movie where instead of storming Normandy, the allies invade Mordor

I should also point out that skeleton in the tomb was going to fall eventualy. Does that mean all the Goblins would of beat the drum got the troll and ran up only to find nothing there?

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

I'm pretty sure literally anything but carrion or the Nazgul's fell beasts flying into mordor would be viewed as unusual. Something as large as the great eagles would 100% be noticed and shot at/have Nazgul sicced on it.

7 Ringwraiths on Fellbeasts cannot effectively cover a front that is thousands of miles wide. Besides they were off looking for The Ring, so the gaps in that line just got wider. Even if they weren't carried all the way to Mt Doom, they could have dropped Frodo and Sam off north of Minas Tirith. That alone would have cut a year off the journey.

008Zulu posted...

7 Ringwraiths on Fellbeasts cannot effectively cover a front that is thousands of miles wide. Besides they were off looking for The Ring, so the gaps in that line just got wider. Even if they weren't carried all the way to Mt Doom, they could have dropped Frodo and Sam off north of Minas Tirith. That alone would have cut a year off the journey.

It wouldn't matter because Sauron would be the one noticing them.

ellis123 posted...

It wouldn't matter because Sauron would be the one noticing them.

Unless Frodo put the ring on Sauron would have no idea where they were.

s0nicfan posted...

IIRC The maiar aren't supposed to interfere in moral affairs. Gandalf spends the entire 3rd age basically rules lawyering himself into a position where he isn't technically breaking the rules but comes dangerously close. In contrast, Sarumon is condemned, IIRC to wander the planet as a powerless ghost for all time for the crime of being too directly involved.

Irony posted...

The judgment by the Valar was bypassed so we don't know if he was going to be punished. When he died Eru himself brought him back upgraded. The whole can't interfere is a Valar rule.

The Istari were instructed not to directly oppose Sauron by force, not to "not interfere in mortal affairs," otherwise it would've been pointless to send them. Gandalf only came dangerously close to "breaking the rules" in Dol Guldur during the events of The Hobbit, but Sauron noped out of there instead of fighting since he wasn't strong enough yet. Saruman was rejected by the Valar because of his betrayal and desire to take the Ring for himself, not because he was too directly involved in anything.

008Zulu posted...

Unless Frodo put the ring on Sauron would have no idea where they were.

Sure. And he was expecting them to take the Ring to Minas Tirith and consolidate their forces. If suddenly an Eagle (who are generally otherwise occupied) went and dropped a delivery Hobbit in Gondor, Sauron would get pretty suspicious.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

It was one rock and it's not clear whether or not that's what exposed the Fellowship.

Books its a bucket I believe. It's been 30 years but thats what I remember.

Shotgunnova posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/15f32205.jpg

Zapp: Now here's a route with some chest hair.

https://imgur.io/nyJds?r

s0nicfan posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/f/fb66d524.jpg

LMFAO

Agonized_rufous posted...

I wanna see a movie where instead of storming Normandy, the allies invade Mordor

Tolkein hated the WW2 comparisons lol

vycebrand2 posted...

Books its a bucket I believe. It's been 30 years but thats what I remember.

I think he just threw a rock in there to see how deep it was. Rather than in the film where he touched a skeleton and it collapsed noisily into the well.

scar_the_1 posted...

One of Manw's Eagles flying into Mordor would have drawn lots of attention.
Assuming that the eagle didn't get corrupted in the first place. The whole point of having a hobbit bear the Ring is that they are quite resilient to its effects, being not very powerful, or ambitious, but rather content with life. This is why Frodo realized he had to go alone - the Ring would inevitably corrupt not only Boromir but also the rest of the Fellowship. A giant divine eagle wouldn't be exempt from the Ring's powers, on the contrary it would be extra tempted.

This is why, at the beginning of Fellowship, Gandalf didn't even touch the ring. He knew he'd be tempted. Him facing the Balrog and dying might have even saved them all, since he was now free from the ring's proximity.

Imagine if he had accompanied Frodo all the way to Mordor, and then at the last second decided to use its power to destroy Sauron's army.

The Eagles are basically on Gandalf's level, so yeah there's a high likelihood they'd be corrupted.

Why CE have more topics like this? Most of the time, it's some troll trying to deliberately start a flame war

Spartan_Jedi117 posted...

Why CE have more topics like this? Most of the time, it's some troll trying to deliberately start a flame war

I'm just happy about any Tolkien/LOTR related topics even if it's just eagle ones. Love reading about and discussing it because I've been a huge Tolkien nerd since my tweens.

Spartan_Jedi117 posted...

Why CE have more topics like this? Most of the time, it's some troll trying to deliberately start a flame war

Everyone seems civil and friendly to me...

LeCh0nk posted...

This is why, at the beginning of Fellowship, Gandalf didn't even touch the ring. He knew he'd be tempted. Him facing the Balrog and dying might have even saved them all, since he was now free from the ring's proximity.

Imagine if he had accompanied Frodo all the way to Mordor, and then at the last second decided to use its power to destroy Sauron's army.

The Eagles are basically on Gandalf's level, so yeah there's a high likelihood they'd be corrupted.

I mean Boromir, Gladeriel and Aragorn all started going off at the same time

Do you think Gandalf would even make it to Mordor? Then again the movie displayed zero signs of Gandalf going off the deep end.

BTW Speaking of saving asses, the Balrog totally saved the world. At least in the movie. IF he did show up that army of Orcs who had the fellowship surrounded would have obliterated them

UnfairRepresent posted...

BTW Speaking of saving asses, the Balrog totally saved the world. At least in the movie. IF he did show up that army of Orcs who had the fellowship surrounded would have obliterated them

It wasn't clear in the movie, but those orcs hate sunlight, so the idea was that they wouldn't have followed them out of Moria.

scar_the_1 posted...

It wasn't clear in the movie, but those orcs hate sunlight, so the idea was that they wouldn't have followed them out of Moria.

They were surrounded and outnumbered 80 to 1 inside the mine.

They fled when the Balrog turned up.

Balrog saved their asses

UnfairRepresent posted...

They were surrounded and outnumbered 80 to 1 inside the mine.

They fled when the Balrog turned up.

Balrog saved their asses

Can't recall exactly how it looked in the movie but they weren't surrounded in the books, the orcs were coming from one direction only. When the Fellowship realized there was a balrog coming, Gandalf stayed behind to stall it.

scar_the_1 posted...

Can't recall exactly how it looked in the movie but they weren't surrounded in the books, the orcs were coming from one direction only. When the Fellowship realized there was a balrog coming, Gandalf stayed behind to stall it.

What's crazy annoying is on Youtube it's easy to find the cave troll fight and easy to find The Balrog fight, but the 5 minutes inbetween is a pain in the ass

They go into this MASSIVE room full of pillars, Orcs come out from all sides and completely surround them in a circle in the middle of the room. There's hundreds if not thousands of them and the Fellowship is hopelessly encircled

Then the Balrog turns up and the orcs all "NOPE!" outta there and literally spiderman climb up the pillars to escape.

No Balrog = Dead Fellowship right there and then

UnfairRepresent posted...

Everyone seems civil and friendly to me...

Depends on the topic and who's getting involved.

scar_the_1 posted...

I think he just threw a rock in there to see how deep it was. Rather than in the film where he touched a skeleton and it collapsed noisily into the well.

I flipped it. My apologies.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This feels like a targeted attack

UnfairRepresent posted...

I didn't say he did want to destroy it. That dude said no being would be willingly able to.

Tom Bombadil would. He legitimately didn't care about it, the Ring has literally no power over him.

Also, Tom being the ring bearer would have required him to actually contribute something to the story instead of just being Disney-themed filler

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Because even without the ring Sauron is winning.

scar_the_1 posted...

Sure. And he was expecting them to take the Ring to Minas Tirith and consolidate their forces. If suddenly an Eagle (who are generally otherwise occupied) went and dropped a delivery Hobbit in Gondor, Sauron would get pretty suspicious.

I am not sure what Sauron was expecting them to do. None of them were using the ring, so it's not like he could plan for them trying to use the ring against him. Gandalf mentioned that destroying the ring never occurred to him, that leaves hiding it. There's nowhere really it could be hidden, Sauron was a smart person, he should have figured out that destroying it was something that they might try.

itcheyness posted...

Because even without the ring Sauron is winning.

Yup.

Mordor had enough orcs left in Mordor even after being routed at Pelennor to vastly outnumber(by well over 10 times the number) what Rohan and Gondor had left. The attack on Mordor was suicide. They were was no chance of victory if Frodo didn't destroy the ring. Rohan and Gondor were down to literally ~6000 soldiers + whatever bare minimum was left to defend Rohan/Gondor.

There were other armies too. Such as the goblins of Moria. There was a northern army beseiging the dwarves of Erebor and Men of Dale as well. Their kings were dead, Dale was abandoned and they were trapped in the Lonely Mountain under seige.

Sauron lost the battle for Minas Tirith but the war was already unwinnable for good. Sauron had hundreds of thousands...perhaps more and with a greater ability to replenish losses.

The Men, Dwarves and Elves combined would've struggled to muster past the mid tens of thousands of soldiers and militia. Gondor already had lost pretty much every major stronghold/city and chokepoint too.

The noose was around their neck. Winning the battle for Minas Tirith was the equivalent of defiant last words before an execution.

If Frodo failed the north falls, and the world of men is pincered between 2-3+ armies with each one outnumbering them. Even if they hadn't challenged Sauron at the black gate(and thus been wiped out if Frodo failed or was never sent) Gondor and Rohan were fucked.

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

Sauron had hundreds of thousands...perhaps more and with a greater ability to replenish losses.

Where do Orcs come from anyway?

Are their female orcs?
Saruman seemed to just pull them out of the ground.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Saruman seemed to just pull them out of the ground.

Been a while since i read it, but i believe the book didn't specify how he made them, they were just described as human/orc hybrids.
It's implied that he purposefully "bred Uruks"

So i'm glad the movie chose the Mud Cloning way instead of the more... unsavory way

ROBANN_88 posted...

Been a while since i read it, but i believe the book didn't specify how he made them, they were just described as human/orc hybrids.
It's implied that he purposefully "bred Uruks"

So i'm glad the movie chose the Mud Cloning way instead of the more... unsavory way

This

There are female orcs, but orcs also love kidnapping women/female elves too and there are half orcs. There's some dark stuff in Tolkien that's not openly talked about.

Saruman creating them out of mud is a movie invention.

Also

Why the fuck did Aragorn spare Wormtongue?

I don't remember the book but in the movie Aragorn is like "Nah bro, let the guy go. Too much blood has been spilled lul"

When Aragorn kills loads of people. Wormtongue is evil and an active agent of Saruman who was complicit in keeping Theoden as a dark puppet and ultimately resulted in countless deaths and the hastened weakness of Rohan. He literally returns to Saruman and gives him loads of up to date information and strategy about Rohan while actively plotting to destroy all the good guys.

He has literally 0 reedeming qualities or pity. He's worse than orcs. It's almost like a prank. Hell 20 seconds later Aragorn railing on Theoden for being a pussy.

Also also:

Are Orcs naturally just evil? Or are they the result of Saruman's treatment?

I mean if an Orc was raised in isolation away from Sauron's influence by "normal" people. Would they just be tough aggressive normal people? Like Klingons?

I mean they have Grog and recreation. They're more than animals.

UnfairRepresent posted... .

Also also:

Are Orcs naturally just evil? Or are they the result of Saruman's treatment?

I'm probably wrong about this, but, aren't orc mutated and tortured elves? From like, the beginning of the world's creation, one of the gods going rouge? Idk the actual mythos, I heard second hand from a friend

Spartan_Jedi117 posted...

.
I'm probably wrong about this, but, aren't orc mutated and tortured elves?

This is what Saruman says in the movie.

They were "originally" Elves who were brutally tortured

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

If Frodo failed the north falls, and the world of men is pincered between 2-3+ armies with each one outnumbering them. Even if they hadn't challenged Sauron at the black gate(and thus been wiped out if Frodo failed or was never sent) Gondor and Rohan were f***ed.

Frodo did fail. At the very end he says "Nah, I'mma keep it, fuck the world"

UnfairRepresent posted...

Why the fuck did Aragorn spare Wormtongue?

I don't remember the book but in the movie Aragorn is like "Nah bro, let the guy go. Too much blood has been spilled lul"

It is a movie exclusive thing. So make up whatever reason you want because it has little to do with Tolkien.

Yeah didn't Grima stay in Orthanc? Must have been pretty awkward after he threw away the palantr

In the movie Legolas murders him for literally no reason (with an arrow shot that would be literally impossible)

Then nobody ever talks about it

Unless you mean the books in which case he is murdered by a gaggle of Hobbits after he slits Saruman's throat.

If I remember right, in the book Theoden gives Wormtongue a choice of riding with him to Helm's Deep or to leave, telling him that next time he sees him he will not give him any mercy. Grima of course bolts back to Saruman. Some might say that's still foolish, but mercy is a big theme in LOTR. I always disliked how obviously evil looking he is in the movies. How could anyone trust him? He should have looked like he did at the very end like in the books. I also hate how Saruman "possesses" Theoden, when in the books he suffers from old age, bad council, and is slowly being poisoned by Grima.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Are Orcs naturally just evil? Or are they the result of Saruman's treatment?

I mean if an Orc was raised in isolation away from Sauron's influence by "normal" people. Would they just be tough aggressive normal people? Like Klingons?

I mean they have Grog and recreation. They're more than animals.

Spartan_Jedi117 posted...

I'm probably wrong about this, but, aren't orc mutated and tortured elves? From like, the beginning of the world's creation, one of the gods going rouge? Idk the actual mythos, I heard second hand from a friend

It is one of the proposed origins that Tolkien made, but he changed his mind and died before coming to a definitive answer. I believe that is the origin told in The Silmarillion, but that is basically a collection of Tolkien's various writings and weren't definitive or complete. Tolkien changed his mind quite a bit on things and would revise his stories although it was only in personal notes and such. Later on he seemed adamant that orcs were not corrupted elves, but corrupted men.

As for their nature, it seems that they weren't originally pure evil, but became so corrupted and brainwashed that they blindly followed Morgoth and Sauron and pretty much became horrible creatures in general. This doesn't answer everything, but it's an interesting text on orcs from The History of Middle Earth: Morgoth's Ring:

Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt within their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in direct thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a longtime without control or purpose.

This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days. But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skillful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction