Current Events > Whose missile hit the hospital in Gaza?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Skankhair posted...

Its crazy. Theyre implying that Israel has to kill kids to stop Hamas, but it doesnt stop Hamas, it just empowers them and creates more terrorists. If they stopped killing kids its not like Hamas would stop overnight, but there would be fewer dead kids (thats the point) and fewer people wanting to join Hamas as revenge for dead family and friends.

"If you kill everyone there won't be anymore terrorists, no more hostages, no more reason to care. Victory can only be assured if we take out everyone."

That's where we're at and that tells you all that needs to be said.

Boots on the ground surgically removing Hamas is I guess the most palatable option, though I personally have no idea how viable that is as a military strat, it would probably mean a lot less Palestine civilian deaths though so that's something going for it

I know you can't let 250 civilians murdered and 50 hostages taken by them go by with just a stern word. Then it would happen again and again

Collat posted...

Not my job. Not going to give out some COD strategy like it's a real thing.

I haven't killed and children though, so I guess I got that going for me.

And you aren't sick enough of hearing "don't kill civilians" it should be beaten over your head until it sinks in.

What a fucking cop out that is. Youre the one saying its not impossible. Im saying it is. The current political landscape agrees with me, so the burden of proof is on you.

And since you have none, keep spouting your bullshit. Im well aware of the cycle of violence using the current methodology, but you fail to realize that the alternative is nothing more than to ask Israel to smile at the terrorists, pat them on the shoulder, give in to their demands, and hope it doesnt happen again.

Oh wait, their demands include the outright absolution of the Jewish state and the genocide of the Jewish people. So either way, were talking about dead civilians. Unless you have an alternative. Theyll give you a Nobel prize if it works so why the fuck wouldnt you give it a shot?

Skankhair posted...

Its crazy. Theyre implying that Israel has to kill kids to stop Hamas, but it doesnt stop Hamas, it just empowers them and creates more terrorists. If they stopped killing kids its not like Hamas would stop overnight, but there would be fewer dead kids (thats the point) and fewer people wanting to join Hamas as revenge for dead family and friends.

Who knew "Killing innocent people is bad" would be such a controversial take?

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

What a fucking cop out that is. Youre the one saying its not impossible. Im saying it is. The current political landscape agrees with me, so the burden of proof is on you.

A real cop out is saying it's impossible to deal with terrorists without taking innocent lives, so just bomb everything.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

What a fucking cop out that is. Youre the one saying its not impossible. Im saying it is. The current political landscape agrees with me, so the burden of proof is on you.

The current political landscape is killing kids. Agreeing with that is, uh, bad.

Believe it not, you just just not kill kids. The fact that you need proof of that is fucking insane.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Boots on the ground surgically removing Hamas is I guess the most palatable option, though I personally have no idea how viable that is as a military strat, it would probably mean a lot less Palestine civilian deaths though so that's something going for it

Likely far more Palestinian deaths, not fewer. Just spread out over longer and with quite a few Israelis mixed in.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

What a fucking cop out that is. Youre the one saying its not impossible. Im saying it is. The current political landscape agrees with me, so the burden of proof is on you.

And since you have none, keep spouting your bullshit. Im well aware of the cycle of violence using the current methodology, but you fail to realize that the alternative is nothing more than to ask Israel to smile at the terrorists, pat them on the shoulder, give in to their demands, and hope it doesnt happen again.

Oh wait, their demands include the outright absolution of the Jewish state and the genocide of the Jewish people. So either way, were talking about dead civilians. Unless you have an alternative. Theyll give you a Nobel prize if it works so why the fuck wouldnt you give it a shot?

not having a better resolution does not excuse a massacre.
there are many solutions that israel is not willing to try or agree to.
so it does not matter.. and no I am not talking about giving in to terroist demands.

the root problem is their inability to see palestinians as huamn beings with equal rights. they treated them horribly for a long time , this did not pop up out of nowhere.. their conflicts is one of the longest.

a two state solution is another step on the right path, neither of thos will solve terrorism over night, but what they are about to go thorugh with, will be breeding terrorists for generations, all the survivors of this wil lknow nothing but fear and hatred, will not be able to be normal again after this. they will be pushed into terrorism because the cycle refuses to end..

and in order to eradicate hamas, other countries would have to get involved if Israel is not willing to do it without massive casualties, they should not be given permission when it is quite clear that other countries are capable of doing the same with much fewer casualties.

Israel is not trying to reduce casualties, because they don't give a shit about the people of palestine.
They want to inflict as much damage as possible, the history of tension between the two is proof of this.

willythemailboy posted...

Likely far more Palestinian deaths, not fewer. Just spread out over longer and with quite a few Israelis mixed in.

How though? Isn't collateral damage far more likely with bombs than bullets

Not saying it'd be a walk in the park just sniping Hamas members while sparing the women and children, but they could at least focus their fire on the dudes with guns shooting at them

haloiscoolisbak posted...

How though? Isn't collateral damage far more likely with bombs than bullets

Not saying it'd be a walk in the park just sniping Hamas members while sparing the women and children, but they could at least focus their fire on the dudes with guns shooting at them

Yeah but it means less deaths on your side. So the choice is do you sacrifice your own people or theirs? When push comes to shove most countries are gonna choose the latter even if they are innocent.

Of course invading and controlling another territory and it's people is gonna bring its own unique kinds of horrors and abuses too.

War is shit man.

ZaruenKosai posted...

a two state solution is another step on the right path

So that's why you favor the "do absolutely nothing" approach, you foolishly think a diplomatic solution is possible.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of Israel is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

Not missile but rocket. That's what we saw in the video failing and breaking up over the area. (we even see multiple parts hitting the ground at almost the same second as the blast near the hospital)

Some basic facts that are clear is that the damage done was NOT from a high explosive of any major size. There are still glass windows in some of the buildings near by. The buildings and their walls are still standing. The cars at or near ground zero are still in one piece. There is no blast crater at the impact point. The air strike theory in any form or weapon is out. Pretty much all the damage, even at ground zero, seemed to be fire damage. (some of the burned cars aren't even completely burned) Likely a result of the rocket motor and still having a lot of fuel after failing so early after launch. Causing a fuel based explosion.

If that was an Israeli weapon then fail or not, there would have been a lot more damage and signs of high explosive damage.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

How though? Isn't collateral damage far more likely with bombs than bullets

Not saying it'd be a walk in the park just sniping Hamas members while sparing the women and children, but they could at least focus their fire on the dudes with guns shooting at them

And everyone within 50 meters of them, hence the higher casualties. Not to mention the IEDs and such.

willythemailboy posted...

So that's why you favor the "do absolutely nothing" approach, you foolishly think a diplomatic solution is possible.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

\i said hamas would first have to be dealt with so the people of palestine can elect a proper government.

israel is more than welcome to take care of hamas, without massive civilian casualties.
civilian death is going to happen, it does not have to be a fucking massacre though. if they are incapable of doing it, perhaps they need another country that is capable of doing it do it for them.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Yeah but it means less deaths on your side. So the choice is do you sacrifice your own people or theirs? When push comes to shove most countries are gonna choose the latter even if they are innocent.

Of course invading and controlling another territory and it's people is gonna bring its own unique kinds of horrors and abuses too.

War is shit man.

Yeah it would mean weighing up IDF lives vs Palestine civilian lives and I guess people are people

I was kinda picturing a black hawk down scenario where they kill like 500 Hamas and only lose 20 Israeli soldiers due to the technological and training advantage of the IDF compared to Hamas

ZaruenKosai posted...

i said hamas would first have to be dealt with so the people of palestine can elect a proper government.

Problem is that the attitude reflected in that document is also widely held within the civilian population. Any elected government is going to demand the same thing.

willythemailboy posted...

Problem is that the attitude reflected in that document is also widely held within the civilian population. Any elected government is going to demand the same thing.

no, not all palestinians think like hamas, now you're just being ignorant.
they have be shown a better life before they can live one.
there will still be terrorism for a while. but slowly the views will change.
you cant punish an entire population for crimes some of them might commit years from now.

when the alternative is to exterminate them like rats, the choice shouldnt be that hard .

Skankhair posted...

The current political landscape is killing kids. Agreeing with that is, uh, bad.

Believe it not, you just just not kill kids. The fact that you need proof of that is fucking insane.

This whole thing started with Hamas killing kids. Everyone of you acknowledged that even if Israel did negotiate with Palestine, terrorism would still occur which means more dead kids. It is the responsibility of a government to keep its citizens as safe as it possibly can be, which is why NO ONE negotiates with terrorists.

And again none of you have a response to the REALITY that Israel was attacked by terrorists who murdered over 1000 people in cold blood and then hid behind their human shields. Not once in the two weeks that Ive been banging the table repeating this point over and over again has anyone provided a viable alternative that any other civilized country would do if they were faced with the same circumstances. Because you cant. This is what you call a no win situation for Israel, but at least you can stop the god damn Hamas from trying it again. All a ceasefire gets you is a suspension of violence before this shit happens again in a year from now, two years, whatever. It hasnt stopped in twenty since Israel left Gaza in 2005.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Yeah it would mean weighing up IDF lives vs Palestine civilian lives and I guess people are people

I was kinda picturing a black hawk down scenario where they kill like 500 Hamas and only lose 20 Israeli soldiers due to the technological and training advantage of the IDF compared to Hamas

We know from Vietnam it doesn't work like that. Home ground advantage is very much a thing for war.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

This whole thing started with Hamas killing kids. Everyone of you acknowledged that even if Israel did negotiate with Palestine, terrorism would still occur which means more dead kids. It is the responsibility of a government to keep its citizens as safe as it possibly can be, which is why NO ONE negotiates with terrorists.

And again none of you have a response to the REALITY that Israel was attacked by terrorists who murdered over 1000 people in cold blood and then hid behind their human shields. Not once in the two weeks that Ive been banging the table repeating this point over and over again has anyone provided a viable alternative that any other civilized country would do if they were faced with the same circumstances. Because you cant. This is what you call a no win situation for Israel, but at least you can stop the god damn Hamas from trying it again. All a ceasefire gets you is a suspension of violence before this shit happens again in a year from now, two years, whatever. It hasnt stopped in twenty since Israel left Gaza in 2005.

this conflict did not s tart on october 7th .
this conflict did not start with hamas, and you know it.
we have responded many times, you simply have fingers in your ears and than cry that no one is answering you.

I hate how everyone got stuck on the kids and babies point, whether or not that actually happened

That dreadlocked woman being dragged around in the truck was probably the standard festival goer murdered and while she wasn't a kid, she was probably still a peace loving young woman just living her life

Like all the videos of the hostages show scared girls who look like 21-22

Not decapitating babies level of shock and horror but still innocent young people getting raped and murdered

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

This whole thing started with Hamas killing kids.

This whole thing started long before Hamas existed. That ignorance is on you.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

This whole thing started with Hamas killing kids. Everyone of you acknowledged that even if Israel did negotiate with Palestine, terrorism would still occur which means more dead kids. It is the responsibility of a government to keep its citizens as safe as it possibly can be, which is why NO ONE negotiates with terrorists.

And again none of you have a response to the REALITY that Israel was attacked by terrorists who murdered over 1000 people in cold blood and then hid behind their human shields. Not once in the two weeks that Ive been banging the table repeating this point over and over again has anyone provided a viable alternative that any other civilized country would do if they were faced with the same circumstances. Because you cant. This is what you call a no win situation for Israel, but at least you can stop the god damn Hamas from trying it again. All a ceasefire gets you is a suspension of violence before this shit happens again in a year from now, two years, whatever. It hasnt stopped in twenty since Israel left Gaza in 2005.

You got a point, if you blow everyone up you not only eliminate Hamas, but hostages they can take, and eliminates Hamas from rising up again from any kids that could survive that grow up seeing this and learning this is the only way.

Killing everyone is the only possible option available.

Maybe some of you can personally escort civilians to safety and take them someplace where they'll be welcomed and not turned away.

ZaruenKosai posted...

this conflict did not s tart on october 7th .
this conflict did not start with hamas, and you know it.
we have responded many times, you simply have fingers in your ears and than cry that no one is answering you.

The conflict started when the UN declared the State of Israel a reality and the Arabs invaded, determined to destroy it.

Or perhaps it started in 1939 when Jews were running for their lives in Europe from the Nazis, and everyone including the Arabs with their stupid Whiter Paper closed off their immigration ports, essentially sentencing six million Jews to be murdered.

Who can really say? For every atrocity you accuse Israel of, I can circle back and point to an earlier point where Arab actions resulted in dead Jews.

Thats why its a cycle of violence. Were well past the point where either side can definitively say they remember a time when it wasnt like this. They are essentially fighting over offenses given before they were born. And I would love to see where you provided your evidence that youve answered my simple question about what Israel is supposed to do, because even though I have two masters degrees, I clearly cant read to the point where Ive understood your answer.

And for the record, if anyone wants to step up and deal with Hamas themselves in exchange for Israel lifting the siege, Im all for it. Do we have any volunteers?

It was neither. It was a third party aligned with Hamas.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

This whole thing started with Hamas killing kids. Everyone of you acknowledged that even if Israel did negotiate with Palestine, terrorism would still occur which means more dead kids. It is the responsibility of a government to keep its citizens as safe as it possibly can be, which is why NO ONE negotiates with terrorists.

And again none of you have a response to the REALITY that Israel was attacked by terrorists who murdered over 1000 people in cold blood and then hid behind their human shields. Not once in the two weeks that Ive been banging the table repeating this point over and over again has anyone provided a viable alternative that any other civilized country would do if they were faced with the same circumstances. Because you cant. This is what you call a no win situation for Israel, but at least you can stop the god damn Hamas from trying it again. All a ceasefire gets you is a suspension of violence before this shit happens again in a year from now, two years, whatever. It hasnt stopped in twenty since Israel left Gaza in 2005.

We've all been over this over and over and you never acknowledge it. First, the history of atrocities between Israel and Palestine does not start when Hamas launches their latest attack. Quite a few relevant things happened before that.

Second, Israel is not starving and bombing their way out of this. There's a bombed out, sickly, imprisoned population that you have to deal with and you can't do that by bombing, sickening, and imprisoning them even more. That is only creating more terrorists as we speak. Hamas is not any closer to being dead from all the Palestinians that have been killed so far. What level of violence would it take to make that happen permanently? How would that level of violence not just create more members of Hamas, especially if you're committed to the idea of bombing rather than targeted special operations.

Third, no one is really disputing that any major world power in the same situation as Israel would do the same things they're doing. That doesn't make those things acceptable. Nationalism, fear, and hatred, and dehumanization are the hallmarks of war and of colonial powers and they lead to the same ends reliably. It'd be bad if America did it (and we did do it in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it was an ineffective disaster). The whole problem is the situation. The situation is ethnic cleansing, apartheid, blockades, occupations, denial of sovereignty, and illegal violent settlement.

TL:DR, fix the situation that inspires Hamas AND get rid of Hamas, that's the only way to end this. That's not even on the table though because the Israeli government, military, and their supporters seem to think collective punishment and increased violence is what will permanently solve this.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

This whole thing started with Hamas killing kids.

Hamas got to kill kids, so we should be allowed to do it too! As a treat.

ZaruenKosai posted...

no, not all palestinians think like hamas, now you're just being ignorant.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy- analysis/what-do-palestinians-want

A majority of East Jerusalem respondents once supported a two-state solution. In contrast, throughout the six-year polling period a plurality of respondents in the West Bank and Gaza have generally chosen regaining all of historical Palestine from the river to the sea as their preference. There was an exception in 2017, when 44 percent of West Bank respondents, a seven-point plurality, said that ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza to achieve a two-state solution was their main goal. By 2020, however, West Bank support for a maximalist Palestine rose sharply to two-thirdseven higher than in Gaza, where the option garnered 56 percent support.

Kindly fuck off if you're going to be that ignorant.

ZaruenKosai posted...

there will still be terrorism for a while. but slowly the views will change.

Sure, just endure several more generations of rockets, bombings, shootings, kidnappings, etc. They'll get bored of it eventually.

ZaruenKosai posted...

you cant punish an entire population for crimes some of them might commit years from now.

when the alternative is to exterminate them like rats, the choice shouldnt be that hard .

Since actual peace doesn't seem to be in the cards due to fundamental differences in strategic goals (Israelis would prefer to exist, Hamas and the majority of Palestinians would prefer they didn't), the best that can be hoped for is a continued strategy of disarmament and containment, preferably with a higher degree of success than in the past.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

The conflict started when the UN declared the State of Israel a reality and the Arabs invaded, determined to destroy it.

Or perhaps it started in 1939 when Jews were running for their lives in Europe from the Nazis, and everyone including the Arabs with their stupid Whiter Paper closed off their immigration ports, essentially sentencing six million Jews to be murdered.

Who can really say? For every atrocity you accuse Israel of, I can circle back and point to an earlier point where Arab actions resulted in dead Jews.

Thats why its a cycle of violence. Were well past the point where either side can definitively say they remember a time when it wasnt like this. They are essentially fighting over offenses given before they were born. And I would love to see where you provided your evidence that youve answered my simple question about what Israel is supposed to do, because even though I have two masters degrees, I clearly cant read to the point where Ive understood your answer.

so the answer to break the cycle... is to continue the cycle?

where will that lead? It just fulfills the bloodlust of the military, and breeds future generations of terrorists to again, repeat the cycle.

Do you not see why continuing the cycle simply won't solve anything.

I dont see how continuing the cycle is better than trying to find an alternative.

willythemailboy posted...

Kindly fuck off if you're going to be that ignorant.

take your own advice.
willythemailboy posted...

Sure, just endure several more generations of rockets, bombings, shootings, kidnappings, etc. They'll get bored of it eventually.

I am not saying not to deal with hamas, of course hamas has to be death with.

there are ways to do it without a massacre of the palestine population.

but to destroy hamas with maximum casualties, breeding future generations of terroists starting it all over again?

even if they destroy hamas, if they dont treat Palestine like human beings, of course more terrorists will rise.

how is that any different? unless you mean for Israel to actually murder every single palestinian even if they dont support hamas?
why are you so against giving human rights to the people of palestine?

ZaruenKosai posted...

so the answer to break the cycle... is to continue the cycle?

where will that lead? It just fulfills the bloodlust of the military, and breeds future generations of terrorists to again, repeat the cycle.

Do you not see why continuing the cycle simply won't solve anything.

I dont see how continuing the cycle is better than trying to find an alternative.

Im the one asking what the god damn alternative is. Im the one arguing that the cycle is impossible to end as long as terrorists hide behind human shields. Im the one saying Israel is faced with two impossible choices - doing nothing or doing what they are doing now. Thats been my entire point. I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand. I am trying to tell you there IS NO ALTERNATIVE to that real world Sophies choice. Weve had US president after US president try over and over again. Hell, both Arabs and Israelis have events in their history where their own leaders were assassinated for even trying with Sadat in 79 and Rabin in 95. So you people keep bringing up this alternative without ever saying what it is. As long as Hamas exists, Israel has absolutely no reason to negotiate.

ZaruenKosai posted...

take your own advice.

I'm the one posting stats and sources. You are not because you're posting entirely on feelings.

ZaruenKosai posted...

as oposed to what?

You could have read the rest of my post.

disarmament and containment, preferably with a higher degree of success than in the past.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Im the one asking what the god damn alternative is.

Dont torture and murder kids.

Im the one arguing that the cycle is impossible to end as long as terrorists hide behind human shields.

Dont kill the human shields. Killing the human shields doesnt stop terrorism, it just creates more.

Im the one saying Israel is faced with two impossible choices - doing nothing or doing what they are doing now.

They have the choice to not torture and murder kids. Torturing and murdering kids doesnt stop Hamas, it galvanizes them and creates more terrorists.

Israel also had the choice to not help create Hamas, help put them in power, and help defeat Hamas more moderate political enemies. No one forced Israel to help create Hamas and help them attain power.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Im the one asking what the god damn alternative is. Im the one arguing that the cycle is impossible to end as long as terrorists hide behind human shields. Im the one saying Israel is faced with two impossible choices - doing nothing or doing what they are doing now. Thats been my entire point. I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand. I am trying to tell you there IS NO ALTERNATIVE to that real world Sophies choice. Weve had US president after US president try over and over again. Hell, both Arabs and Israelis have events in their history where their own leaders were assassinated for even trying with Sadat in 79 and Rabin in 95. So you people keep bringing up this alternative without ever saying what it is. As long as Hamas exists, Israel has absolutely no reason to negotiate.

youre not listening to anything anyone is saying even though we gave you the answers and you keep circling back to BUT HAMAS.. but thats not possible.
so the answer to break the cycle... is to continue the cycle?

where will that lead? It just fulfills the bloodlust of the military, and breeds future generations of terrorists to again, repeat the cycle.

Do you not see why continuing the cycle simply won't solve anything.

I dont see how continuing the cycle is better than trying to find an alternative.

there are ways to do it without a massacre of the palestine population.

but to destroy hamas with maximum casualties, breeding future generations of terroists starting it all over again?

even if they destroy hamas, if they dont treat Palestine like human beings, of course more terrorists will rise.

how is that any different? unless you mean for Israel to actually murder every single palestinian even if they dont support hamas?
why are you so against giving human rights to the people of palestine?

this conflict did not s tart on october 7th .
this conflict did not start with hamas, and you know it.
we have responded many times, you simply have fingers in your ears and than cry that no one is answering you.
hamas can and should be dealth with, but not with a masssacre,
actually you're wrong, other countries would do this with far less casualties than Israel, because once again, Israel is not trying to reduce casualties.

after hamas is dealth with properly with minmal casualties, not guns blazing,

the next step is a a two state solution with a proper elected government and the humane treatment of palestine will reduce terrorism greatly, but not overnight. There is no overnight solution when you have kept a populatin in an open air prison and forced poverty their entire life.

and no , not all palestinians share the views of hamas. and it is not fair or right to punish them for crimes they might commit the future, they have a right to life. they are human beings, just like us.

not having a better resolution does not excuse a massacre.
there are many solutions that israel is not willing to try or agree to.
so it does not matter.. and no I am not talking about giving in to terroist demands.

the root problem is their inability to see palestinians as huamn beings with equal rights. they treated them horribly for a long time , this did not pop up out of nowhere.. their conflicts is one of the longest.

a two state solution is another step on the right path, neither of thos will solve terrorism over night, but what they are about to go thorugh with, will be breeding terrorists for generations, all the survivors of this wil lknow nothing but fear and hatred, will not be able to be normal again after this. they will be pushed into terrorism because the cycle refuses to end..

and in order to eradicate hamas, other countries would have to get involved if Israel is not willing to do it without massive casualties, they should not be given permission when it is quite clear that other countries are capable of doing the same with much fewer casualties.

Israel is not trying to reduce casualties, because they don't give a shit about the people of palestine.
They want to inflict as much damage as possible, the history of tension between the two is proof of this.

of course I am well aware none of that will actually happen , becase than Israel doesnt get to take any land.
so instead they will continue to slowly eradicate them and use the rise of terrorism as an excuse for them to continue conquering more of Palestine/Gaza

it has become redundant att this point to repeat myself for the 100th time....
i am copy pasting my previous posts.

ZaruenKosai posted...

i am copy pasting my previous posts.

They weren't worth posting the first time, and were certainly not worth repeating.

The short response to your drivel is that all your solution would end up doing is giving Hamas more resources with which to attack Israel. This is why you're so often - and so correctly - accused of supporting terror even if you think you are not.

willythemailboy posted...

They weren't worth posting the first time, and were certainly not worth repeating.

The short response to your drivel is that all your solution would end up doing is giving Hamas more resources with which to attack Israel. This is why you're so often - and so correctly - accused of supporting terror even if you think you are not.

so you are literally ignoring everything I said... I said Hamas has to be taken care of.
I also said that it does not have to be a massacre. it does not have to be a blood bath, (for the innocent palestinians caught in the middle of this war.)

Once hamas is defeated in a way that does not incur massive civilian casualties, (no civilian deaths is impossible, but we bgoth know Israel is not even trying
, it is time to give palestine (which are not hamas )human rights like they deserve so they can live a better life..

it is worth repeating because you refuse to acknowledge that I am saying to defeat hamas does not require genocide.

And once hamas is defeated you are saying they should not give palestinians proper human rights... which is inhumane..

I am saying not to punish innocent palestinians because they might become criminals ten years form now on..

We don't arrest people for crimes they have not commited here, Israel has no right to murder people that have not become terrorists just because they might..

I have a problem with people pulling numbers out of their own ass for their own narrative.

ZaruenKosai posted...

I said Hamas has to be taken care of.

This is utterly unrealistic and underpins everything wrong with your opinions. Accept that or fuck off.

ZaruenKosai posted...

Once hamas is defeated in a way that does not incur massive civilian casualties,

Not possible. Full stop. Thankfully, no one is foolish enough to try to "defeat" Hamas. Trim them down a bit, remove some of their stockpiled weapons, sure. Defeat in any meaningful sense is an idiotic pipe dream.

ZaruenKosai posted...

it is worth repeating because you refuse to acknowledge that I am saying to defeat hamas does not require genocide.

I recognize that is what you are saying while also recognizing it has approximately zero basis in reality. I think you know that as well, which is why it comes off as so pathetically insincere.

ZaruenKosai posted...

I have a problem with seeing 20k-300k dead civilians by the hands of the IDF in a slaughter because they refuse to minimize casualties.

I think we just have massively different views on minimizing casualties. At the very least I hope you can admit to yourself that Israel is not doing anything to maximize casualties. To provide some perspective: Israel has reportedly dropped about 6000 bombs since October 7, and the latest estimate from the Gaza Health Ministry is Palestinian 3785 fatalities in the same time period - and that includes the 500+ fatalities from the hospital explosion that was almost certainly not one of those 6000 Israeli bombs. That averages out to one fatality per bomb dropped, with a third of them causing no fatalities at all. That could certainly be lower but indicates at least some effort is being given to minimize casualties.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-health- ministry-3785-palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-since-oct7-2023-10-19/

Hamas

Was ready to blame Israel, but the info that came out today convinced me they didn't do it tbh

ZaruenKosai posted...

... I said Hamas has to be taken care of.
I also said that it does not have to be a massacre. it does not have to be a blood bath, (for the innocent palestinians caught in the middle of this war.)

How?

Lorenzo_2003 posted...

How?

Hamas is a monster Israel helped create. You cannot stop Hamas overnight, but youll never stop Hamas by murdering innocent kids.

Step 1. Stop killing innocent kids.
Step 2. Stop torturing innocent Palestinians.
Step 3. Stop stealing their land and their homes.
Step 4. End the blockade that is destroying the quality of life of people living in Palestine.

Maybe in a few generations Hamas will be overthrown. It will take a long time. It will not be easy.

Israel has the Iron Dome, walls, and every right to defend themselves from attacks. They do not have the right to kill innocent people. Killing kids does not stop Hamas, it has the opposite effect.

Didnt we learn anything from the War on Terror? Fighting terrorism by killing innocent people does not stop terrorism. It is terrorism and it creates more terrorism and spreads the very ideologies you are trying to contain.

Remember when everyone jumped the gun instead of patiently waiting for more information? Fun times.

Skankhair posted...

Hamas is a monster Israel helped create. You cannot stop Hamas overnight, but youll never stop Hamas by murdering innocent kids.

Step 1. Stop killing innocent kids.
Step 2. Stop torturing innocent Palestinians.
Step 3. Stop stealing their land and their homes.
Step 4. End the blockade that is destroying the quality of life of people living in Palestine.

Maybe in a few generations Hamas will be overthrown. It will take a long time. It will not be easy.

Israel has the Iron Dome, walls, and every right to defend themselves from attacks. They do not have the right to kill innocent people. Killing kids does not stop Hamas, it has the opposite effect.

Didnt we learn anything from the War on Terror? Fighting terrorism by killing innocent people does not stop terrorism. It is terrorism and it creates more terrorism and spreads the very ideologies you are trying to contain.

So in the meantime, Israel just has to put up with rocket attacks and shit like October 7th.

Because thats a reasonable expectation.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

So in the meantime, Israel just has to put up with rocket attacks and shit like October 7th.

Because thats a reasonable expectation.

They can defend themselves. They cant murder innocent people. And murdering innocent people will never stop the attacks. So your idea just means more attacks, not less. Youre the one not being reasonable. Youre being blinded by bigotry and bloodlust.

Skankhair posted...

They can defend themselves. They cant murder innocent people. And murdering innocent people will never stop the attacks. So your idea just means more attacks, not less. Youre the one not being reasonable. Youre being blinded by bigotry and bloodlust.

Let's play that out.

1. Hamas launches a rocket barrage from an apartment block.
2. You say Israel can defend themselves, so they return fire at the site, which destroys the block.
3. You then say Israel murdered civilians.

Tom_Joad posted...

Let's play that out.

1. Hamas launches a rocket barrage from an apartment block.
2. You say Israel can defend themselves, so they return fire at the site, which destroys the block.
3. You then say Israel murdered civilians.

Israel can literally blow the rockets out of the sky.

If they do blow up the block and kill kids that is not defense and it will never stop the attacks.

Skankhair posted...

Israel can literally blow the rockets out of the sky.

If they do blow up the block and kill kids that is not defense and it will never stop the attacks.

The iron dome can't blow every rocket when attacked at such a massive volume.

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2023/10/how-hamas-evaded-israels-iron-dome-air-defense-system/391285/

Yo_D_oY posted...

The iron dome can't blow every rocket when attacked at such a massive volume.

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2023/10/how-hamas-evaded-israels-iron-dome-air-defense-system/391285/

Duh. And?

That doesnt mean murdering kids is the answer. That just leads to more terrorism, and even more rocket strikes.

You always have the worst takes.

Skankhair posted...

Israel can literally blow the rockets out of the sky.

If they do blow up the block and kill kids that is not defense and it will never stop the attacks.

In your view, return fire is not defense.

Does that apply to Ukraine too? If Russia launches missiles at Ukraine, return fire at Russian missile launch sites "is not defense and it will never stop the attacks."

Tom_Joad posted...

In your view, return fire is not defense.

Does that apply to Ukraine too? If Russia launches missiles at Ukraine, return fire at Russian missile launch sites "is not defense and it will never stop the attacks."

In my opinion murdering innocent kids is not defense.

You are making a fallacious and ridiculous comparison. I expect nothing better from you.

Can Ukraine return fire at Russian missile sites? Yes. Can they murder Russian kids? No. You always make me face palm

Skankhair posted...

They can defend themselves. They cant murder innocent people. And murdering innocent people will never stop the attacks. So your idea just means more attacks, not less. Youre the one not being reasonable. Youre being blinded by bigotry and bloodlust.

Again, Hamas murders Israelis and hides behind human shields. If Israel could deal with Hamas without the loss of innocent life, then its imperative they do so. But as long as Hamas continues their tactics as is, Israel is stuck in a no win situation. And not fighting back also encourages terrorists and empowers the other countries in the region like Iran, which also calls for their destruction.

So dont tell me what they shouldnt do. You are getting nowhere with me on that, and only strengthening my point. And dont tell me what should have happened in the past. Because we dont live on that timeline. Tell me what they are supposed to do now.

Jews around the world are living a nightmare reminding us of all the reasons why we left Europe almost a century ago. Palestinians are living a nightmare reminding them of all of the reasons why theyve become so disenfranchised. Together, the only thing that possibly unites them is the pain they both feel. Were talking about a raw wound that has been bleeding for decades. And all either side hears is how theyre the problem.while they bury their dead, or go sleepless nights worried sick about their loved ones. Without exception, every Jew and Palestinian has been personally affected by this, through friends and family, or knows someone that was, including me.

It makes me sick that Palestinians are dying at the hands of the IDF and their own. But I dont think its reasonable to ask Israelis to
simply tolerate the existence of a group of genocidal and homicidal psychopaths who live next door, and whose only reason for existing is their total annihilation.

So dont tell me what they shouldnt do. I already got that a million times. Whats the path forward that leads to freedom from terror, peace, security, and self determination for both sides? To solve this, you need to address all four at the same time.