Current Events > Korra had to fight literal gods and Aang struggled against a guy with powers off

(+) Yeah! (+)

gamepimp12 posted...

aang didnt even master all the elements, only water.

he was definitely an airbending master

that's why he had the tats in the first place

masterpug53 posted...

I'm betting you're the same user who had this bullshit take take several months back. If so, I remember the few people with the saint-like patience to debate you in good faith eventually all gave up and said 'dude, I really find it hard to believe that you actually watched the show.' So I pity anyone who similarly wastes time on you now, knowing that you'll learn nothing and regurgitate this opinion unaltered the next time a Korra topic comes up.

Your ability to spin an opinion into a hero villain story like you have done to me makes me understand why you think Korra is also a good protagonist.

Even though I only watched like two episodes of Korra I can safely say neither her nor Aang are Mary Sue type characters. Korra may of learned the elements quickly (as someone pointed out, the showrunners didn't want to do a training arc) but she was disrespected by a lot of people despite how special her role is.

Aang was treated with respect and listened to despite his young age but struggled through learning the other elements. Most notability how he nearly picked up quickly on Fire Bending until he hurt Katara then was afraid of trying for most of the show. And of course he had moments where he made stupid selfish decisions because he was afraid to be alone again.

So yeah, no. I don't see either of them fitting as a Mary Sue.

We shouldn't be talking about whether or not Korra was a Mary Sue, we should just talk about how bad the first two seasons were

RyuForce posted...

Korra may of learned the elements quickly

No, she didn't. She displayed the ability to bend more than one element when she was four, but the opening episode is literally her completing her firebending mastery thirteen years later.

"Bu-bu-but she learns airbending in one scene!"

It's pretty blatant that her inability to airbend is more a mental block than anything else and the scene she gets over it has her performing the very complex master airbender technique of uh....punching air at Amon.

Zaheer gets similarly dumb complaints about him becoming a master airbender out of nothing and they are similarly dumb.

AirFresh posted...

Strong brown female character

Which gave me and my dick every reason to want it to be the best ever. It's not bad, but it feels like the original writers let their high school kids write for Korra.

pegusus123456 posted...

She displayed the ability to bend more than one element when she was four,

Exactly, she learned how to bend three elements at the age of 4 where as far as we know, Aang didn't even try another element until his quest started. But learning and mastering is different and Aang did master the four elements faster then all other benders. Or was it learn? Either way boht him and Korra picked up on them faster then all the previous avatars from what the series seem to set it up as..

"Bu-bu-but she learns airbending in one scene!"

It's pretty blatant that her inability to airbend is more a mental block than anything else and the scene she gets over it has her performing the very complex master airbender technique of uh....punching air at Amon.

Okay fair, I didn't point out I only meant the first three elements she learned as a kid and again, didn't watch pass two episodes because the show wasn't for me. But yeah, I agree with you on this. Even the episodes I did see made it clear Airbending was going to be the one she struggled on.

Sorry, I wasn't going for you specifically, you were just the last person who used that phrase lol.

Now that I have some time, Imma write a dissertation about all this. For the record, I give TLA a 10 and Korra an 8/10, so I think Korra is VERY good, just not superb like TLA.

*****

The main problem I had with Korra as a CHARACTER is that she isn't super likeable. Now, from my own interpretation of Korra, she is a strong female character who has to live up to arguably the most important Avatar to have ever lived. This is especially true considering a lot of the history even of Kiyoshi, much less any other Avatar's, was largely manipulated and destroyed by the Fire Nation under Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai. For most of the world now, Aang was the ONLY Avatar they knew about and saved them from tyranny and slavery under the foot of the Fire Nation.

That is what they were going for, but I don't think they always executed on that very well. You have to read between the lines for a lot of it, especially in the earlier seasons. That's not to say that having it be less on the surface and more in the depths of her character is a bad thing, but it is muddled in a bad romance, and a general feeling of "I'm the fucking Avatar, why the hell aren't people just listening to me? Do I even know the right thing to do?!" type character growth. Again, not inherently a BAD thing, but it didn't work as well to ingratiate her to us, especially when compared to the relative easy likeability and the easy to get behind plight of Aang. I appreciate the attempt at depth but it does make Korra less likeable to some people.

Korra is also not exactly an excellent character to toss into an overall story more to do with political machinations and cultural ideology. I believe again that this was purposeful, as Korra is not like Aang and thus throwing her into that COULD have opened up more intrigue. Instead it kinda made Korra look a little ignorant and had her make REALLY stupid decisions at times. (I don't get how people consider her a Mary Sue since she gets her ass beat and makes dumb decisions all the time). Hell, the best season (S3) is because Zaheer is an excellent villain, not because of anything Korra related. I appreciate everything they were trying to do but it just made Korra look a little silly and ignorant at times. She argues against all these different leaders, whether that is ideological leaders or political leaders or Queens, and almost ALWAYS comes across as just not being sure what to say and do. It seems it was a way to make someone who is alike to a God in-universe appear more human and relatable, but it just doesn't always work. Hell, S4 works decently well because Kuvira is a more intriguing character in the story.

Korra is complex, nuanced, but has a brash attitude that doesn't really reflect the nuance they were putting her INTO. Now a lot of this is likely due to plenty of rewrites and changes made as Nickolodeon kept screwing over the show runners, giving them different amounts of episodes they could have for a season, telling them the series was over and then "Ooops, no wait, it's not", and also their attempts at trying to force them not to go for the same-sex relationship. They did REALLY well considering, but to not call out the shortcomings of the series or to suggest that it's sexism is not really the case. People claiming it is a 2/10 I would be suspect to be idiot sexists, true.

pegusus123456 posted...

Sorry, I wasn't going for you specifically, you were just the last person who used that phrase lol.

It's all good and I get the frustration, hence why I was clearing up my side as well.

Jeff_AKA_Snoopy posted...

Now a lot of this is likely due to plenty of rewrites and changes made as Nickolodeon kept screwing over the show runners, giving them different amounts of episodes they could have for a season, telling them the series was over and then "Ooops, no wait, it's not", and also their attempts at trying to force them not to go for the same-sex relationship.

It's really baffling to me how much Nickelodeon tried to screw this show over from the start consider how well AtLA did and how much hype that carried into people wanting to watch Korra before we even knew much about it. It felt like it should been a situation of just give them the money and let them work their magic and yet it got screwed over hard production wise. I just don't get corporations somehow having all the tools they need to make money then just throwing it away for dumb reasons.

RyuForce posted...

It's really baffling to me how much Nickelodeon tried to screw this show over from the start consider how well AtLA did and how much hype that carried into people wanting to watch Korra before we even knew much about it.

I didn't watch it at the time, but they kind of did the same thing with TLA. Not to the same extent, but they were massively inconsistent with releasing episodes.

But aang did whatever it took in relative to what he had to do, and became a literal God, or something.

It mostly has do with the nostalgia factor, and the difference in scale and style.

Think like if when DragonBall came back as super, it was like, Gohans son or daughter fighting Gods while using way more (smaller, yet effective) types of ki attacks that aren't as splashy and effective or something. At some point it's twisted around that even if it makes sense, maybe it's even better, it just doesn't hit people right. Not the right vibe, sorta?

I like Korra, but I'm pretty sure it's just that. Maybe I'm just rambling nonsensically

pegusus123456 posted...

I didn't watch it at the time, but they kind of did the same thing with TLA. Not to the same extent, but they were massively inconsistent with releasing episodes.

The last book took forever to finish in TLA. I dunno what the hell happened but it was months between when it started to when we finally got to the big showdown and they ended up turning it into a 4 episode premiere marathon to finish it.

Because Season 1 Korra was dry and cliche. Aang was likable from the start. Korra wasnt. The world had mystery in TLA. There was no mystery in korra.

Plus, they did the dumb cliche of Im a girl and girls can do anything boys can. Yeah we know. We have all loved on Earth and watched the same TV special about this 30 times.

plus the animation is worse.

_____Cait posted...

Plus, they did the dumb cliche of Im a girl and girls can do anything boys can. Yeah we know. We have all loved on Earth and watched the same TV special about this 30 times.

Holy shit, people really do hate Korra for being a female protagonist lol. What show did you watch?

Was it when the Kyoshi warriors showed Sokka that women are just as capable as men? Or when Katara had to prove women were just as capable as men to the water trainer dude?

Ah fuck, wrong show!

Aang was boring to me. I liked Korras personality way better since she gave me Luke from Tales of Abyss vibes. Your main character is allowed to have character flaws beyond no confidence or pacifist.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Holy shit, people really do hate Korra for being a female protagonist lol. What show did you watch?

Was it when the Kyoshi warriors showed Sokka that women are just as capable as men? Or when Katara had to prove women were just as capable as men to the water trainer dude?

Ah fuck, wrong show!

Aang was boring to me. I liked Korras personality way better since she gave me Luke from Tales of Abyss vibes. Your main character is allowed to have character flaws beyond no confidence or pacifist.

Kyoshi warriors were great. Sokka was being an jerk and theyshowed him up. It wasnt that they were proving women were as good as men, it was showing him that he was just being a sexist idiot. They knew they were capable. And the way they showed him was not only meaningful, but showed that they also loved being women and didnt need his approval. Sokka came to them and asked to understand, iirc.

The Korra thing is just the typical cliche that we have seen in every childrens cartoon. Korras story wasnt as nuanced as that. It had the same feeling as those Rocket Power episodes where the sister constantly had to prove she was better than the boys. It is the writing that is boring, not the fact she is a girl. I actually liked that they made Korra a woman. Especially since Aang was very proud of his past life and having been a woman before.

Which goes for almost everything in season 1. Forced tension with a boring, predictable love triangle. I also remember being very underwhelmed by the last episode of the season. It did get better in season 2, but I cant blame people for not liking it based on S1 alone.

As for Aang, I liked him more for the fact that he was mostly just pleasant. He was soft and naive, but was emotionally stable, knew how to react to things, and despite being a kid and having some childish habits, was very emotionally mature, and good to people.

I know it gets better as it goes on, but S1 has a lot of flaws, and I can really see why people would be turned off by it.

MORE EDIT- I like that they made her a female character. I dont think being a female protects the show from being criticized for having bland and predictable cliches. And trust me, the original had cliches too and I dont like them either. I am criticizing the show from a perspective of someone watching without knowing the executive meddling and obvious forced writing and pressure it had. It could have been better. It did get better. It started weak.

RyuForce posted...

It's really baffling to me how much Nickelodeon tried to screw this show over from the start

Fun fact. Nickelodeon was always pissed at the showrunners for going with a female action lead. They were expressly told NOT to do it because corporate stooge focus testing allegedly indicated female action heroes in kids shows don't get as good of ratings, and showrunners used their clout from the huge success of TLA to basically say "yeah we heard you, and we fuckin did it anyway"

Gremlynn posted...

Fun fact. Nickelodeon was always pissed at the showrunners for going with a female action lead. They were expressly told NOT to do it because corporate stooge focus testing allegedly indicated female action heroes in kids shows don't get as good of ratings, and showrunners used their clout from the huge success of TLA to basically say "yeah we heard you, and we fuckin did it anyway"

Honestly, if they really hated it, they wouldnt have let it air. Yet they did somehow.

For a show that was only supposed to have 1 season with a meager 10 episodes, they spent an inordinate amount of time on the teen love triangle and the stupid pro bending which wasn't nearly as entertaining as they seemed to think it was.

It would be like if Harry Potter spent its entire run time on the quidditch matches.

Or if the original ATLA spent most of its episodes on making a zuko katara aang love triangle

They could have developed amon more or the new world I dunno

There's a reason season 3 is so beloved, its the one most reminiscent of AtLA

_____Cait posted...

The Korra thing is just the typical cliche that we have seen in every childrens cartoon. Korras story wasnt as nuanced as that. It had the same feeling as those Rocket Power episodes where the sister constantly had to prove she was better than the boys. It is the writing that is boring, not the fact she is a girl. I actually liked that they made Korra a woman. Especially since Aang was very proud of his past life and having been a woman before.

Be specific. Besides Korra being a woman with the character flaw arrogance, when did TLOK ever try to show women can do what men can overtly? ATLA is the only series to do a sexism subplot twice. They also had Suki show up every dude in the prison break episode.

You are doing the same thing as calling a show woke because a protagonist is black.

Korra has never flaunted her gender. Characters never bring up her gender (except once in s3 or s4). Korras cliche, if anything, is the sheltered individual that doesnt understand social customs like paying for food.

Korras arrogance and ability comes from her title of the avatar. Thats where her hubris stems from.

I have no fucking clue where you are getting The legend of Korra has a cliche of women being just as good as men!

And tbh, ATLA didnt get good until Toph, imo. I get bored as shit watching book 1. The samish complaint you levy against Korra. It improves.

Noumas posted...

For a show that was only supposed to have 1 season with a meager 10 episodes, they spent an inordinate amount of time on the teen love triangle and the stupid pro bending which wasn't nearly as entertaining as they seemed to think it was.

It would be like if Harry Potter spent its entire run time on the quidditch matches.

Or if the original ATLA spent most of its episodes on making a zuko katara aang love triangle

They could have developed amon more or the new world I dunno

There's a reason season 3 is so beloved, its the one most reminiscent of AtLA

Finally someone who is actually addressing the actual flaws the show has

I fully agree with this entire post

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Be specific. Besides Korra being a woman with the character flaw arrogance, when did TLOK ever try to show women can do what men can overtly? ATLA is the only series to do a sexism subplot twice. They also had Suki show up every dude in the prison break episode.

You are doing the same thing as calling a show woke because a protagonist is black.

Korra has never flaunted her gender. Characters never bring up her gender (except once in s3 or s4). Korras cliche, if anything, is the sheltered individual that doesnt understand social customs like paying for food.

Korras arrogance and ability comes from her title of the avatar. Thats where her hubris stems from.

I have no fucking clue where you are getting The legend of Korra has a cliche of women being just as good as men!

And tbh, ATLA didnt get good until Toph, imo. I get bored as shit watching book 1. The samish complaint you levy against Korra. It improves.

No, you are imagining I hate it because she is a woman.

I didnt like it because it was written poorly. I can like things for not being good.

And I already stated that TLA did it better. So how could I be hating something for being about women, when I clearly like the other episodes where the women are superior to men? Maybe because I simply liked one better than the other.

Like I said. I felt Korra was rushed and poorly written. It is everything to do with the writing. If you want to imagine this is because I hate women, whatever, I know what I think. It has nothing to do with them being women, but telling the story In a boring, predictable, and cliche way.

Cait, at no point in that post did he call you sexist. He asked you for an example of the girl power cliche you're complaining about and you just sidestepped into responding to something completely different.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Be specific. Besides Korra being a woman with the character flaw arrogance, when did TLOK ever try to show women can do what men can overtly? ATLA is the only series to do a sexism subplot twice. They also had Suki show up every dude in the prison break episode.

You are doing the same thing as calling a show woke because a protagonist is black.

Korra has never flaunted her gender. Characters never bring up her gender (except once in s3 or s4). Korras cliche, if anything, is the sheltered individual that doesnt understand social customs like paying for food.

Korras arrogance and ability comes from her title of the avatar. Thats where her hubris stems from.

I have no fucking clue where you are getting The legend of Korra has a cliche of women being just as good as men!

And tbh, ATLA didnt get good until Toph, imo. I get bored as shit watching book 1. The samish complaint you levy against Korra. It improves.

Well spoken.

_____Cait posted...

No, you are imagining I hate it because she is a woman.

I didnt like it because it was written poorly. I can like things for not being good.

And I already stated that TLA did it better. So how could I be hating something for being about women, when I clearly like the other episodes where the women are superior to men? Maybe because I simply liked one better than the other.

Like I said. I felt Korra was rushed and poorly written. It is everything to do with the writing. If you want to imagine this is because I hate women, whatever, I know what I think. It has nothing to do with them being women, but telling the story In a boring, predictable, and cliche way.

This didn't answer the question he asked at all lol

PiOverlord posted...

I think the Seismic sense at the end was supposed to be the show's way of letting us know that he did end up mastering Earth-bending. To see through sound waves is truly the endgame of earth-bending mastery that even life-long earth-benders could not do.

wasnt he still in the avatar state at that point ?

gamepimp12 posted...

wasnt he still in the avatar state at that point ?

No. This was after Aang turned off the Avatar state and told Ozai he was sparing him; Ozai predictably tried to sucker punch him, and Aang used the seismic sense to detect it.

I loved Korra but, it felt disjointed. Korra was better then Aang. The supporting cast was worse though. Korra wasn't more OP then Aang. She never truly mastered the elements. She was impulsive and hot tempered. This led to a lot of trauma for her. She got her ass kicked alot.

There are enough parallels between Korra and Zuko that, if you want to oversimplify things, you can essentially consider Korra a Zuko character who's presented from the start as a hero instead of a villain. Which might explain why so many people found her unlikeability to be an insurmountable turn-off - you expect that kind of starting behavior from an antagonist with a redemption arc, but not a protagonist. I also personally think that Korra's 'unlikeability' is largely overblown, but I don't have a problem being diplomatic on this particular issue.

Like Balnazarr said, TLoK suffers from a considerably-weaker supporting cast, so your enjoyment on the show hinges much more heavily on whether or not you buy into Korra as a character. Personally, I loved her. Korra grew from a hot-tempered, sheltered brat to someone who was worldly and mature enough to spare the life of the Avatarverse's Hitler equivalent; not because of some flimsy sense of do-goodery, but because Korra genuinely sympathized with why Kuvira could be driven to such extremes. I haven't rewatched TLoK in awhile and would need to do so to cement my opinion, but I still contest that Korra is the best character out of both series, and that is no small feat, considering that Zuko, Iroh, and Sokka are also among my favorite characters in fiction.

masterpug53 posted...

There are enough parallels between Korra and Zuko that, if you want to oversimplify things, you can essentially consider Korra a Zuko character who's presented from the start as a hero instead of a villain. Which might explain why so many people found her unlikeability to be an insurmountable turn-off - you expect that kind of starting behavior from an antagonist with a redemption arc, but not a protagonist. I also personally think that Korra's 'unlikeability' is largely overblown, but I don't have a problem being diplomatic on this particular issue.

Like Balnazarr said, TLoK suffers from a considerably-weaker supporting cast, so your enjoyment on the show hinges much more heavily on whether or not you buy into Korra as a character. Personally, I loved her. Korra grew from a hot-tempered, sheltered brat to someone who was worldly and mature enough to spare the life of the Avatarverse's Hitler equivalent; not because of some flimsy sense of do-goodery, but because Korra genuinely sympathized with why Kuvira could be driven to such extremes. I haven't rewatched TLoK in awhile and would need to do so to cement my opinion, but I still contest that Korra is the best character out of both series, and that is no small feat, considering that Zuko, Iroh, and Sokka are also among my favorite characters in fiction.

That's a cool perspective I hadn't heard of before. I love season 3 zuko so much that I forget how much I hate book 1 zuko or how much I loathed what he did in the season 2 finale.

They're both flawed people that learn, while aang has always maintained his pacifism and way of thinking without making hard decisions about murder and killing